Purgatory

[steaver]

You are arguing over the minimum cost of entering a boxing match

Your argument is the shed blood of Jesus Christ is not enough to satisfy God's judgment upon sin and not enough to justify freely a person unto heaven. They also must be punished for their sins. The Scripture is what rebukes this line of thinking, yet you reject the Scripture in favor of traditions of men.

What does God say about this?

Ro 3:23-24, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" Do you see the terms "freely" and "grace"?

Ro 5:16, "And not as it was by one that sinned,so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification." Do you understand what "free" means?

Steaver are you fully regenerated and without sin now? NOPE.

You do not understand what Jesus Christ did for the believer. Am I fully regenerated? Absolutely! There is no such thing as half or partially regenerated. One is either born-again/regenerated, or one is still lost. A birth is an event. You are not being born in Christ, you are either born of God or you are not.

Am I without sin? Nobody is. This is why Jesus Christ had to suffer and die, to set the captives free from the law of sin and death. I sin, yet the sin has no power over me, to kill me, to take away my eternal life in Christ. My sin is paid for, ALL of it to the glory of Jesus Christ and His FREE GIFT through His shed blood. Jesus Christ took God's punishment. You cannot grasp this although you could if it were not for the RCC forcing you to reject it, because the Scripture is clear, yet you argue against the Scripture. This is what Martin Luther discovered while comparing the Scripture to the RCC rhetoric. This is why he tried to show them their error and they were so arrogant like the Pharisees of old they set out to kill him.

Ro 7:1-3, "
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." I am dead to the Law and married to Christ. The Law of sin does not touch my righteousness which is in Christ. I need no purging from sin, my sins have been washed in the blood of Christ. ALL of them, past, present, or future. I am no longer under the Law.

A greedy person, realizes he is justified by Jesus. That's fine, That's great. He believes and dies, still dies a greedy person.

No greedy people in heaven. He is going to be taught not to be greedy. That training for you might be a piece of cake even joy. For him it could be as bad as hell.


God is not going to say well this greedy man is in heaven, that's a joke. It wouldn't even be heaven for the guy, it would be hell.

You have no understanding of Grace. We all deserve hell. You don't get it. You don't understand the cross. You still want God to punish the sinner, even the one's who believe upon Jesus Christ and His shed blood on the cross. You cannot fathom Grace. I pray you do one day. I pray you understand the suffering Christ went through to forgive you of those sins you want God to punish you and others for.

Ro 7:24-25, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

What son is there whom his father does not discipline? Your telling us God doesn't discipline you at all.


Are you perfect now steaver? Tell me what discipline God has put on you? NOTHING?

Why do you suppose God would BOTHER disciplining if your just clean via blood of Christ?

OH NO.......if God loves you....The boot camp is coming!

This is all about a Christian's walk while in the flesh here on earth. Has ZERO to do with after you die and go to heaven. If it did as you think it does, then all of that Scripture about Grace and Free Gift and Fogiveness for sins is Lies. Until you understand Grace, you will never properly divided the Word of Truth. The problem is you are not allowed to consider the Scripture, you have locked yourself into the RCC, you cannot freely study the Scripture. I actually think many Catholics like it that way so they don;t have to study at all. it is laziness. Cause I know if they actually considered what Grace means they would have no choice but to protest the RCC or leave it.

 

[steaver]

Let me ask you a question, do you understand from the Scripture that those who have made a covenant with God through faith are viewed and spoken of as saints here on earth by God?

You never answered my question Utilyan....

 

[utilyan]

You never answered my question Utilyan....

That's fine steaver. Point is in heaven you cannot sin.

Does God discipline you?


Why would he have to?


You might be a child who's sin is to set things on fire. Ok God will not condemn you for this. You are justified he is not going to hold this sin against you. He is still going to discipline to cease. Hence in heaven there is no more sinning.


This is the make or break question. In heaven will you still sin. Yes we already know you assured heaven by blood of Christ. When you are in heaven will you still sin?

If the answer is NO. That moment you stopped sinning = purgatory. You are purged in English you are Cleansed.

 

[steaver]

You might be a child who's sin is to set things on fire

I'm not sure these examples you are giving are speaking of born again Christians. I don't see born-again Christians committing such sins according to the Scripture. A child of God committing arson??? I think this person has never met Jesus Christ.

This is the make or break question. In heaven will you still sin. Yes we already know you assured heaven by blood of Christ. When you are in heaven will you still sin?

If the answer is NO. That moment you stopped sinning = purgatory.

Explain why the answer "no" equals a purgatory? According to you it means a purgatory because the unconfessed or unrepented of sin needs to be punished. This goes against the blood of Jesus Christ paying the punishment for all sin. Thus, the blood is not sufficient in your eyes.

 

[steaver]

Question for you Utilyan.....when were you perfected for ever?

Heb 10:14, "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

You have been sanctified, correct?

 

[utilyan]

I'm not sure these examples you are giving are speaking of born again Christians. I don't see born-again Christians committing such sins according to the Scripture. A child of God committing arson??? I think this person has never met Jesus Christ.


Explain why the answer "no" equals a purgatory? According you it means a purgatory because the unconfessed or unrepented of sin needs to be punished. This goes against the blood of Jesus Christ paying the punishment for all sin. Thus, the blood in not sufficient in your eyes.

Im giving you extremes steaver. For example there do exist pyromaniacs. They aren't evil.

Your stuck on a legalistic, courtroom point of view of the issue.

I'm speaking from a school room or hospital point of view.

A Good saint will call punishment from God sweet treasure like a loving kiss.
A Bad sinner will even call reward and kindess from God TRASH, suffering and HELL.

Discipline, punishment, words are being thrown around twisted by different points of view. Some little kids hate taking a bath and will equate it as punishment.

I'm past the guilty, not guilty verdict, where God is ALL IN and set with you going to heaven. I'm not talking about payments or earning God's love.

You have a problem sinning, God is going to provide the way to stop, FOR YOU to stop.

WHY? God and Jesus love you so its expected.

HOW? purgatory doesn't say how. boot camp, a divine lecture, mountain climbing, writing on chalk board.

WHAT? we are cleansed from sinning. we stop sinning.

WHEN?Purgatory is a reference to a when between now and heaven. Most commonly between death and heaven.

The word is a different language. It means CLEANSE. TO be cleaned.

 

[Revmitchell]

The doctrine of purgatory existed in the world long before the Catholic decree of it. In fact it was part of the Babylonian mystery religion along with absolution and a few other heretical doctrine. They did not originate with the church. They originated with the ultimate false religion.

 

[BobRyan]

No one agrees with Catholic misrepresentation.

The bottom line is when you are in heaven your soul is in a state that no longer sins and is cleansed from sin. The means like blood of Christ, as if through fire ect. isn't the point. It merely points out between death and Heaven something happens.

Justification and being pardoned from sins doesn't save you from regeneration and actually being directed into Sainthood.

Justified and pardoned that's fine that's like getting the doctors note for your sinful misbehavior, yes you will be covered in the blood of Christ.

But here is your "problem" the blood of Christ actually heals, actually fixes what is broke. Yeah you might be scott-free by the doctor's note, but not the doctor's needle.


Heaven only has saints. There is no sinning or sinners there.


Revelation 21
27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.


So when are you going to stop sinning? You want to kick the blame on GOD. That its GOD's fault you sin. That's not going to fly in heaven.

In a blink of an eye God can press a button where everyone on earth stops sinning and is perfect completely.
God doesn't need to fool around with nothing.

God want YOU to stop sinning. he can have his robot anytime.


You either sinless and perfect now or between now and when you die. or after you die.

If you say well in heaven we still sin, then you have a case against purgatory.

If you say in heaven there is no sin then a purgatory happened. Namely at a point you stop sin.

IT is true that there is no sinning in heaven.

But still - there are several problems with your statement.

1. You imagine that the saints must get tortured by the same fires of hell as the lost -- and that somehow this "improves character". IF it were true that character is improved by being tortured - the "inquisition" would have worked. If it were true that character improves by being tortured by the fires of hell - then all the lost will be saints.

2. The sinful nature is not taken with the saints when they are raised in glorified bodies - they will then no longer have the 'bent" that is in the sinful nature of Romans 3 - to fight. But if they were compromised Christians all along - well they probably werent saved when they died in the first place. They were just "church-goers" at the best.

3. No text - not even in the Jewish Apocrypha says that the lost idol-worshiping Jews who die in mortal sin of worshiping false gods - "get tortured until they improve enough to go to heaven"

 

[utilyan]

IT is true that there is no sinning in heaven.

But still - there are several problems with your statement.

1. You imagine that the saints must get tortured by the same fires of hell as the lost -- and that somehow this "improves character". IF it were true that character is improved by being tortured - the "inquisition" would have worked. If it were true that character improves by being tortured by the fires of hell - then all the lost will be saints.

2. The sinful nature is not taken with the saints when they are raised in glorified bodies - they will then no longer have the 'bent" that is in the sinful nature of Romans 3 - to fight. But if they were compromised Christians all along - well they probably werent saved when they died in the first place. They were just "church-goers" at the best.

3. No text - not even in the Jewish Apocrypha says that the lost idol-worshiping Jews who die in mortal sin of worshiping false gods - "get tortured until they improve enough to go to heaven"

See bob #1 is misrepresentation we do not say its a mini-hell based on payout of suffering or torture.

Insisting we believe something we deny doesn't mean we believe it.

Vilifying with a lie is an act of evil.

If you are going to hold us to be wrong at least get what we believe straight first instead relying on alternate sources making up absurd lies.

I heard other people say that Ellen G White is a racist who says black people are result of "amalgamation" of perfect white people with apes and other animals.

Would it be wise for me to insist you are a racist? or even better insist it despite any denials?

No its not right. I listen to your side, I listen to what you believe.


We have a catechism that points out our view http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm
Link is right there you don't need the catechism of Alaska, China or Boston.



Those misrepresentations come from works like Dante's inferno.

Think of the word purgatory in our own language.
The word means CLEAN.

Nothing unclean enters heaven.

Not talking merely declared innocence. You are clean and sanctified to enter heaven.



When are you people going to disagree on something we actually say we believe?

I don't have to make up what you guys believe. Fact we get it clarified, say it your way and then disagree and slam it.

But when it comes to us. No clarification is accepted and a lie is pushed. That is cowardly.

 

[steaver]

HOW? purgatory doesn't say how. boot camp, a divine lecture, mountain climbing, writing on chalk board.

Actually, Catholics point to 1 Cor 3 as proof of purgatory. In fact it is the only Scripture ever pointed to as proof of a purgatory. Now 1 Cor 3 declares there is fire taking place. Catholics say purgatory is the soul being cleansed, that means your soul is being lit on fire which would be torture, God torturing His children. Bible students understand 1 Cor 3 is speaking of works/deeds being lit on fire, but Catholics say it is the person himself suffering for their sins. So tell me where in Scripture you find this divine lecturing, mountain climbing, or writing on a chalk board?? No, we do not misrepresent your doctrine, it is you who point to 1 Cor 3 as proof of a purgatory.

 

[Yeshua1]

The Catholic Church teaches that people who die end up in one of two places: Heaven or Hell.

Those who end up in Heaven do so 100% by grace through Christ.

On the way, though, souls bound for Heaven may experience a “final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.”

Why is this doctrine so controversial?

Herbert

Due to NOT being taught at all in any books of the canon of scripture, and that it denies pauline theolgy of the Cross///

And Church of Rome teaches NOT saved by grace alone, but that those saved have co operated well enough with the Grace of God to allowing God to merit their conduct and life sufficient to have obtained salavation!

 

[steaver]

Question for you Utilyan.....when were you perfected for ever?

Heb 10:14, "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

You have been sanctified, correct?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

See bob #1 is misrepresentation we do not say its a mini-hell based on payout of suffering or torture.

I think you'll find you do.

‘Souls…..suspended by meat-hooks driven through jaws, tongue and sexual organs, frozen into ice, boiling in vats of liquid metal or fire…… There was general agreement that, at least as far as its activities and staff were concerned, Purgatory was an out-patient department of hell rather than the antechamber of heaven….. In Purgatory, declared [Bishop] Fisher, “Is so great acerbite of paynes that no difference is between the paynes of hell and them, but only eternyte.’
Roman Catholic historian Eamon Duffy

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan-

One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory;

I am not sure what it is that you're getting at by quoting this Priest. As far as this excerpt from his response goes, despite the highlighting, etc. I don't see what specific point you're speaking to:

"I answer that, nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory;

See bob #1 is misrepresentation we do not say its a mini-hell based on payout of suffering or torture.

Insisting we believe something we deny doesn't mean we believe it.

Vilifying with a lie is an act of evil.

Your act of attacking me for what your own RCC source said - is lie.

"thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory;"

Are we supposed to simply "not notice"???

When are you people going to disagree on something we actually say we believe?

I don't have to make up what you guys believe. .

What part of my quote of your own fellow Catholic post and Catholic source above - is "making stuff up about what Catholics believe?"

 

[BobRyan]

I heard other people say that Ellen G White is a racist who says black people are result of "amalgamation" of perfect white people with apes and other animals.

And did you also hear that you could not find such a quote from Ellen White about black people?

If you are saying that I get to quote any non-Catholic I like as a "source for Catholics" -- you have just opened a huge door of opportunity for the non-Catholic argument. Is this what you are proposing??

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan-

I am not sure what it is that you're getting at by quoting this Priest. As far as this excerpt from his response goes, despite the highlighting, etc. I don't see what specific point you're speaking to:

"I answer that, nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known to the living may be mitigated through the prayers of the Church."

There are many Catholics who are the first to admit that Scripture is not explicit in teaching Purgatory. Rather, Catholics see what we know of God's salvific work as compatible with the doctrine of Purgatory, maybe even hinted at... As I said, though, even CS Lewis went so far as to say our souls demanded Purgatory. And in contrast to what Ellen G. White suggests, saying:

"Then the way was prepared for the introduction of still another invention of paganism, which Rome named purgatory, and employed to terrify the credulous and superstitious multitudes. By this heresy is affirmed the existence of a place of torment, in which the souls of such as have not merited eternal damnation are to suffer punishment for their sins, and from which, when freed from impurity, they are admitted to heaven." (The Great Controversy 58.3)

The reality of things isn't so outrageous as she suggests.

No - it turns out even on this thread and in your own quote it has been shown to be every bit as outrageous as she points out.


"Then the way was prepared for the introduction of still another invention of paganism, which Rome named purgatory, and employed to terrify the credulous and superstitious multitudes. By this heresy is affirmed the existence of a place of torment, in which the souls of such as have not merited eternal damnation are to suffer punishment for their sins, and from which, when freed from impurity, they are admitted to heaven." (The Great Controversy 58.3)

in your own response --you say

"'I am not sure what it is that you're getting at by quoting this Priest. As far as this excerpt from his response goes, ..."there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory;" "'

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Internet Theologian]

Your act of attacking me for what your own RCC source said - is lie.

"thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory;"

Are we supposed to simply "not notice"???



What part of my quote of your own fellow Catholic post and Catholic source above - is "making stuff up about what Catholics believe?"

Note the wording 'so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory;

As if the just need cleansing. This is the problem with the apostate RCC in a nutshell -- we are justified by faith, RCC doesn't like that because she cannot control her subjects if their faith is totally and wholly within the work of Christ alone.

Thus, those already allegedly just really aren't just, they must suffer hell's flame. Yet they are called just by the RCC system while suffering for sin! Just fathom how absurd and asinine that is.

The work of Christ in this apostate system is insufficient. Top that off with all outside 'Rome' are accursed as anathema, thus, those who cling to (Deut. 10:20) Christ as all sufficient are cast out and spat upon with this RCC denouncement. Frankly the teaching is foolhardy and blasphemous.

 

[BobRyan]

utilyan said: ↑
See bob #1 is misrepresentation we do not say its a mini-hell based on payout of suffering or torture.

Insisting we believe something we deny doesn't mean we believe it.

Vilifying with a lie is an act of evil.

Your act of attacking me for what your own RCC source said - is lie.

"thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory;"

Are we supposed to simply "not notice"???

What part of my quote of your own fellow Catholic post and Catholic source above - is "making stuff up about what Catholics believe?"

Note the wording 'so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory;

As if the just need cleansing. This is the problem with the apostate RCC in a nutshell -- we are justified by faith, RCC doesn't like that because she cannot control her subjects if their faith is totally and wholly within the work of Christ alone.

That is a pretty good point given the statements they are making.

Thus, those already allegedly just really aren't just, they must suffer hell's flame. Yet they are called just by the RCC system while suffering for sin!

Now there is one more thing about this that is even more nonsensical - and that is the effort the RCC calls for the Catholic members to make - to escape that "cleansing" and just how they clam the cleansing is "escaped".

1. If they were really convinced that the cleaning was so needful - they would not be making such a fuss about the need to escape it.

2. If the process were about nothing more than changing the character of the person being tortured by the fires of hell - THEN who in the world does "suffering as payment by someone else" solving the problem? Does your character "change" when some saint in the dark ages suffers extra temporal punishment than their venial sins demanded???

Here are questions that spell the end of the made-up-doctrine of purgatory.

 

[Internet Theologian]

The notion that the flames of hell 'cleanse' is an absurdity. It shows the entire teaching as fabricated by man. It's remarkable how many are bamboozled by this teaching.

 

[utilyan]

The notion that the flames of hell 'cleanse' is an absurdity. It shows the entire teaching as fabricated by man. It's remarkable how many are bamboozled by this teaching.

Your perspective is flawed. Something that's evil finds hell in God. God is the epitome absolute of what they hate most and suffer from most.

Hell is what it is the eternal separation from God. Metaphors of fire are for describing suffering.


For you to give a beggar some money might put a smile on your face. Another soul however might grind and gnash his teeth at having to do this.


We don't share same views on hell. To be in hell is a choice you make. And it is a perpetual sin.

Our view is Sin itself is the bad thing rather then the penalty or consequence of sin.

Those "penalties" Is discipline from God for your sake.


See lot of folks here reason I'll do what God says cause there is a reward in it for me. I won't do what he says cause there is consequence.

We are talking from a more faithfully refined position. Do what God says BECAUSE God said so FULL STOP.

We don't respect the carrot or the whip but the word of the lord.