Featured Purgatory

Was the torture and death - burning alive etc - of heretics in the dark ages the "bad thing" or was the sin of the so-called heretic 'the bad thing'??

"Bad" as in?? something that displeases God?

Or "bad" as in "oh my goodness I would not want to be burned alive (purgatory or not)" ??

What do you mean by "the bad thing"??

 

Hence they idea that a lot of people have here about not liking Catholic 'made up doctrines' where the saints get "sent to the fires of hell" after they die.

They probably also don't like the "burn heretics alive" ideas of the inquisition -- so common in the dark ages.

 

Concerning the heretic, Torture and murder is against Catholic teaching.


"Bad thing" meaning sin itself. All sin is rooted in a mistrust of God.

Bob you don't slap your wife because you could go to jail or because you care for her?
There is a right way for its own sake. Same goes for Sin.


Sin is completely wrong. The pious perspective is quite different from a faithless sinner.

Bob because you love God so much, there maybe nothing that causes you to suffer then to know anything is offending God.

A faithless sinner however doesn't care what offends God, His mind is on himself, he is selfish.

He's not thinking sin is the worst thing that can happen to him for him its losing money, being physically tortured, getting the wife angry ect..


God loves you. So he teaches you to not sin. Your sinning does not mess up God's paint job, you can't hurt God, God is perfect.

 

Here is the question I would ask of you: you say you are "walking the walk," and from past discussions it seems that you teach practical perfection, so if this is the case...why should there be a need for Purgatory?

In regards to your belief you "don't have to read a lick of Scripture," could you expand on a few verses for me?



John 15:3

King James Version (KJV)


3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.



Ephesians 5:25-27

King James Version (KJV)


25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.



1 Peter 1:22-23

King James Version (KJV)


22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.



James 1:18

King James Version (KJV)


18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.



There seems to be a little conflict with teaching about the need for cleansing and at the same time the need and ability to live in such a way that cleansing is not necessary. It also seems to bring conflict when we are told By Scripture that the Word of God cleanses, both in a positional sense as well as in a progressive sense, yet you say you don't have to read a lick of it.

So if you could expound upon the above passages that would be appreciated.


God bless.

 

Many times the Bible that was available is opened up. Just because the New Testament was not available until after Pentecost doesn't mean there was no Bible during Christ's ministry and prior.

For example:



Luke 4:15-17

King James Version (KJV)


15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,


Here...

...have ye not read...

are a few more to consider.

We see that here:


Daniel 9

King James Version (KJV)

1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:

4 And I prayed unto the Lord my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:


You can also take a look at this...

...thy Word.

Paul seemed to think that Timothy's knowledge of Scripture was important:


2 Timothy 3:15

King James Version (KJV)


15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.



Apollos had the Bible available in that day:


Acts 18:24

King James Version (KJV)


24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.



But the one question I would ask here, is...don't you think going to the Bible is a good idea to fix "problems?" Especially Doctrinal problems?


God bless.

 

Let me explain this faith alone challenge. I'm adopting your FAITH ALONE stance to show how it doesn't work.

It might come across as ""smart aleck". But when you make legalistic absolute claims then you have to be.

If I claim by taking this pill you don't have to consume anything else. Pill alone. But then I require one to drink water then it is not "pill alone".

The claim is FAITH ALONE. That's all I need. I do not require engaging in the GOOD WORK of reading scripture. I don't have to even engage the GOOD WORK of paying any attention to what you have to say.

I could expand on bible verses for you........but since you believe in faith alone.......I won't.

Because expanding on bible verses is a GOOD WORK that you nor I require..... FAITH ALONE IS FAITH ALONE.

I will not engage in good works like:
Reading scripture, explaining scripture, taking advice, giving advice, ect, ect.

If you think this is silly. GOOD! I'm giving you the BEST actual sincere process of "FAITH ALONE".


If I have to read scripture its no longer faith alone. If I have to do ANYTHING its not faith alone.

 

I think you need to closely read what is written.

Scripture is important, says scripture. They have not gone to scripture to fix their problem.

They might go to God, to prayers.


Jesus himself says when there is a difference or issue, Take it to the church.

Jesus could have said if there is problem among you take it to the scriptures. But he didn't because that would be stupid.

Its stupid because quite plainly we can interpret what we want. Even Satan quotes scripture.


Eating a cake recipe is not eating a cake.

 

This is not really relevant to what I said, but since you bring up faith alone, I would remind you that Sola Fide is relevant to conversion, not "the walk" you claim to be walking.

When you were saved, you were saved through faith in Christ, there is nothing else that God viewed. After you were saved, you were in need of information. Do you want to tell me you are as ignorant today about God and Scripture as you were when you were saved? Or along the lines have you come to a better understanding of God and His will for your you and your life? Do you understand better now your responsibility to God concerning your neighbor?

None of these things are relevant to conversion.

What you are saying is "I will not do the good works I was created in Christ Jesus to do."

But because works-based salvation demands works to maintain one's salvation, your attempt to deny Sola Fide forces you to first blur soteriological concepts, then create a suitable replacement.

The fact is you are doing those works, the problem being...your confusing concepts that are clearly distinguished one from another.

Sola Fide does not mean that we are restrained from good works, nor that they are not expected of us. We have much instruction concerning out daily conversation, but we will not know what those instructions are unless we "read a lick of Scripture," to use your own terminology.

The other option is to simply...make up whatever it is you think God would approve of.

Isn't that what you are doing?


God bless.

 

I did, both your post as well as the Scripture I presented.

You said...

I showed from Scripture you are in error in that.

Here it is again:


Luke 4:15-17

King James Version (KJV)


15 And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,



You're looking at it as "If they didn't have the 'Bible' we have they didn't have the Bible."

Here are a few more to affirm they had the Bible:




Romans 3:1-3

King James Version (KJV)

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?



Hebrews 5:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.




We see this implicitly as well: how do you think the Writer of Hebrews would have expected those he wrote to to know who he was talking about in Hebrews 11 if they didn't have the Word of God?

So if you refrain from blurring the focal issue of what I said you will see that you have been shown to be in error in your assessment of...

It is true they didn't have "what we know as the Bible," but...they had the Bible that had been given to them at that time.


Continued...

 

Not sure how you can say that:


Daniel 9

King James Version (KJV)

1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;

2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:

4 And I prayed unto the Lord my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:


It was by being in the Books that understanding of the judgment that had been imposed became known. This is simply a Basic Bible Principle, my friend. The Written Word of God exposes sin.

Consider:


Galatians 3:23-24

King James Version (KJV)


23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.


I gave you this...


2 Timothy 3:15

King James Version (KJV)


15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


The Holy Scriptures can make one wise unto salvation. You can understand salvation through the Holy Scriptures.

So a lick or two will help you out my friend.

Because of the revelation of God telling them this is what is needful.

Which is built...upon His Word, the very Gospel of Jesus Christ.

And that has a salvific context, not one of progressive sanctification, which if you don't mind me saying so...is where the works-based mentality is stuck. They have exchanged salvation for works, and completely reversed the process, making progressive salvation the means of salvation, rather than salvation the means of progressive sanctification.

And Paul addresses this:


Galatians 3

King James Version (KJV)


1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

In point of fact He did:



Matthew 5:20-22

King James Version (KJV)


20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


These people relied on what is said, whereas their need was to heed what was written. Their leaders created what they wanted Scripture to mean, instead of what it did mean. They said "Don't murder," but went about murdering (because people violated what they interpreted Scripture to mean.

He emphasized what was written:


Matthew 2:5

King James Version (KJV)


5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,


Do we see these people giving an importance to the Word of God?

Here's another:


Matthew 4:4

King James Version (KJV)


4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.



Is not the Word of God the basis of authority for Christ's teaching here?

You can look here...

...it is written...

...to further study something that challenges your position, my friend. If you do, you will see why some of us place such a high authority on the Word of God.

No, we can't interpret what we want. When we do, be assured there will be someone to come along and correct us. What is true is we can believe what we want, and if we have no basis of authority then this becomes problematic. And if people come into power who say their authority of interpretation cannot be question, and their followers buy into that, then we truly do have people who interpret any way they want to.

But interpretation takes discipline, and it is easy enough to see when discipline is foregone.


God bless.

 

it denies the Gospel truth of Justificastion of the sinner trhu and by the atonement of jesus on their behalf...

the biblical version of this is that a sinner becomes saved by receiving jesus thru faith alone/grace alone in Him, and at that very moment , God declares him/her to be right in his sight, as he imputs the sinlessness of jesus towards us...

Church of rome has a different Gospel, as they say God infused his grace in and towards us thru and by the sacraments, so depending on how well we co operate with him to save us determines if we can get staright to heaven or not...

To Roman church, a sinner MUST become in a sense right enough to have God save him, and that totally goes against the truth of while we were yet sinners, jesus died for the ungodly!

A Cathoic can NEVER have assurance of their salvation, as it is a mixtyre and based upon faith/grace/good works!

 

This part I cannot agree with completely, because the religious mind never thinks they are in danger of not making the grade, lol.


God bless.

 

That is true, but in the sense that a catholic HAS to rely upon himself as part of the salvation process...

 

And that is the true failure of the works-based mindset...they think they do. That has been expressed in this very thread.


God bless.

 

The Catholic, like all Christians have a part to play in the salvation process. Salvation is offered through Jesus Christ and the first step we must do is accept that salvation. Once accepted, we then must strive to live a holy and sinless life that is pleasing to God.

The fact is, faith and works are an integral part of the Christian life - it's not one without the other but both combined. We don't rely upon ourselves for salvation, but just accepting the salvation offered by Christ and continuing on with your wayward ways will get you nowhere.

 

Yeshua 1 said: "A Cathoic can NEVER have assurance of their salvation, as it is a mixtyre and based upon faith/grace/good works"![/QUOTE]

Faith. Grace. Good works. Aren't those the things that the Scriptures say is part of being a Christian?

Remember this: Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

 

Faith. Grace. Good works. Aren't those the things that the Scriptures say is part of being a Christian?

Remember this: Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."[/QUOTE]

Do ou have the full assurance that when you die, say right now, that you would skip Purgetory and go right into presence of the Lord?

For good works testify after being saved that we are now saved, but have NO PART in saving us, as that is thru grace alone/faith alone!

 

And that is the fundamental error that separates Catholics and other works-based soteriologies from those who acknowledge man has no part in salvation in the salvific context.

Tell me this, how did you know you needed to be saved? Did you read the Bible and understand it in your condition which was natural, which Scripture denies can actually understand or receive the spiritual things of God?

You might think you did, but the truth is that God enlightened you to your condition. Your "acceptance" of His Gift was no more you performing something than a drowning man saving himself because he takes the hand of the one that pulls him from the water.

The error is viewing salvation as a singular teaching in Scripture and concluding it is a "process." Salvation itself is not a process, but an event in the life of one who is dead and separated from God, He quickens that individual through His indwelling, and at that point you are born again and in union with God.

The "process" you include in your view is that which takes place after one is saved. We call this progressive sanctification, not to be confused with positional sanctification.

I look at it a little differently, Adonia: the first step is not to reject it.

Rejecting Christ is the only course available to man in regards to salvation. His nature is predisposed to reject, but, we have to make it clear that it is not until God reveals the truth to men that they are in a position to reject. We would have to see men seeking after God in their natural condition to make this otherwise, and Scripture is clear, no man seeks after God.

And again, this deals with conversion, not our daily conversation, the life we live after we are saved.

This is true, and most who embrace Sola Fide recognize and teach this. But they don't confuse it with conversion. They don't confuse it with Regeneration.

Secondly, we have to realize that how well we do stands in direct relationship to that which we know and how well we understand that which we know.

Would you admit that at this stage in your walk with Christ you know more than when you were saved? Do you, as I do, see that we are held more accountable when we know and understand better? Now think about the babe in Christ: would they not, and do they not...commit sin that they do not realize is sin of grievous moment when they are first saved? I know I did. Still working on that murder issue, lol.

This is true, and the thing to understand is that faith grows as we grow, but it does not mean we are more saved than we were when God gave us the gift of salvation.

And that is what separates the obedient child from the disobedient. But lest we forget, keep in mind that it is our Heavenly Father training us up in the way we should go, we are not left to grow on our own. God does not abandon His children, we are told that.

Not when we are speaking about conversion. Only when you create a "process" mentality can you impose such a concept into salvation.

You, my friend, did not perform the first work that endeared you to God and earned yourself the gift of life. Not before salvation, nor after you were saved.

If you think you did, please tell me what it is that warranted God spiritually raising you from the dead. When you can tell me what it is you did that made God say, "Well, going to have to save that one, did you see what they just did?"


Romans 4

King James Version (KJV)


4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


The point Paul is making is that it is either by grace, or it is reward.

He doesn't present a "process mentality."

Now, are you really saying that you are living a righteous life that makes God a debtor to you? Answer honestly.

You do if you think that salvation is a process which can only be accomplished if you live holy and righteous (enough) for it to be brought to completion.

Here is what brings it to completion:


Hebrews 10:14

King James Version (KJV)


14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

This assumes that God allows men to do that, lol.

What one who continues in sin will have happen is that they will lose their reward (not their salvation), and possibly their physical lives (i.e., Ananias and Sapphira, those who partake of Communion unworthily (1 Corinthians 11:29-30)).

I think that can happen to born again believers, and Scripture teaches us that it can, but, I can also understand the frailty of humanity, and how tragedy, for example, might lead one to make shipwreck of their faith. But this is the difference between faith that brings about salvation (which is in Christ alone), and our faith as Christians. Not all Christians are equally strong in their faith, and the primary reason, I believe, is related directly to their understanding of Scripture, which is directly related to their obedience to God in the first place.

You cannot live righteous and holy in your walk, Adonia, if you don't first know what is required of you. You cannot know, even if you do study, what the Word teaches unless God enlightens you to the truth of the Word.

Every aspect of our salvation, in both conversion as well as in our progressive sanctification...relies on God.

When we attribute righteousness to ourselves as a result of our works, we ignore the fact that we first rely on God to give us the ability to come into obedience.

Again, the primary error I see you making is failing to distinguish the difference between positional and progressive sanctification. We are set apart unto God by His grace through faith, and our works have nothing to do with that. We are set apart unto God and apart from the world in our lives when we come into obedience. Two entirely different issues, just as Paul's teaching concerning justification deals with the eternal perspective (and justification before God), and James speaks concerning justification before men, even so distinguishing the difference between positional and progressive sanctification is vital. James does not teach men are saved because of their works before men, he teaches that men are justified before other men by their works. Understanding that in its context makes a big difference.

God bless.