Question about a Catholic litany V2...

[saturneptune]

Yes, but how? As I said to SN, if my last words are rather 'stronger' than "Oh dearie me" as I see the fatal truck hurtling towards me, how do I go from that sinful moment straight into the face-to-face presence of God without at least my first words to Him being "Whoops, sorry, Boss!"?

That question was answered three or four times. The fact is you chose to ignore it. This is a question based on a false premise, the premise that all sins must have been forgiven by you asking before death to be eligible for heaven. That is nothing but a works salvation. All of our sins, past, present, and future, were forgiven at the cross by the death of Jesus Christ. That is the end of the story. It is a matter of faith, not a matter of "gee, I missed asking forgivenss for that last curse word." As usual, the Catholic church takes a verse like "If we ask for forgiveness of our sins, He is faithful to forgive us of our sins" This verse has nothing to do with salvation. It has to do with a daily walk with the Lord where we maintain fellowship and become more like Jesus. Why is that so hard for the idiots at the vatican to grasp?

The Christian is sanctified every day here on this earth, with no doubt leaving the path from time to time but always returning. At death, glorification is instant. There is no stop off point to say, "sorry boss" as you put it. Who cares how God does it? He does it. Absent from the body is present with the Lord. It is appointed for man once to die then the judgement. It does not say, man dies, asks for a final forgiveness, then begs to get into heaven.

Your question is in the same catagory as questions such as "Can God create a rock so heavy He cannot lift it?" or "Can God commit suicide?"

This is exactly why the warped belief that suicide in inself in an unforgiveable sin is a very strong sign that someone does not have an understanding of the Gospel or a relationship with the Lord, because is shows a works salvation minus faith.

Now, it could be that the person that commits such an act will end up in hell, but it is not because he committed suicide, it is because he never was a child of God or by faith came to salvation.

As others have told you over and over and over, there is no reconciliation between the Bible and Catholic myths and heresy.

Now, does that answer your question?

 

[Matt Black]

No! That's why I've asked it again. I'm not talking about whether I'm forgiven or not - that much is a 'given', but rather what happens if the sanctification process is incomplete at the point of death. You airily state that we are 'glorified' (explain that term please), as it were, in an instant, without giving the basis for that or explaining how that occurs. I'm asking you to do that.

 

[Matt Black]

(Now I'm going to sound like I'm 'batting for the other side', but in the interests of truth and balance and all that...)

I want to pick up on a comment made by Agnus on the previous thread:

So in other words, you're not interested in Church History...then please DHK, present to the class one (1), just one Baptist father that knew an Apostle...any Apostle

The short answer is 'there isn't one'; however, the debate I think is a bit more nuanced than that. You see, there are ECFs who did put forward sola fide (or something pretty close to that). Consider the following extract from Cranmer's Homily on Salvation (Anglican!), where he references Hilary of Poitiers, Basil the Great and Ambrose of Milan:

Faith only justifies, is the doctrine of old Doctors. And after this wise to be justified only by this true and lively faith in Christ, speaks all the old and ancient Authors, both Greeks and Latins. Of whom I will specially rehearse three, Hilary, Basil, and Ambrose. Saint Hilary saith these words plainly in the ix. Canon upon Matthew, Faith only justifies. And Saint Basil a Greek author writes thus, This is a perfect and whole rejoicing in GOD when a man advances not himself for his own righteousness, but acknowledges himself to lack true justice and righteousness, and to be justified by the only faith in Christ. And Paul (saith hee) doth glory in the contempt of his own righteousness, and that he looks for the righteousness of GOD, by faith (Philipp. 3.9).
These be the very words of Saint Basil. And Saint Ambrose, a Latin Author, saith these words, This is the ordinance of GOD, that they which believe in Christ, should be saved without works, by faith only, freely receiving remission of their sins. Consider diligently these words, Without works by faith only, freely we receive remission of our sins. What can be spoken more plainly, then to say, That freely without works, by faith only we obtain remission of our sins? These and other like sentences, that we be justified by faith only, freely, and without works, we do read oft times in the most best and ancient writers. As beside Hilary, Basil, and Saint Ambrose before rehearsed, we read the same in Origen, Saint Chrisostome, Saint Cyprian, Saint Augustine, Prosper, Oecumenius, Phocius, Bernardus, Anselme, and many other Authors, Greek, and Latin.

Source

 

[saturneptune]

, but rather what happens if the sanctification process is incomplete at the point of death. .

It ends. It is not incomplete at death, as God accomplished the sanctification, and God appointed the time of death. You premise makes no sense, how does He glorify someone. He glorifies them through the righteousness of Jesus Christ through faith. What are you looking for, a scientific formula?

 

[saturneptune]

Consider the following extract from Cranmer's Homily on Salvation (Anglican!), where he references Hilary of Poitiers, Basil the Great and Ambrose of Milan.

I will let you consider it. All that is needed in writing about salvation is contained in the Bible.

 

[Matt Black]

It was a question to Agnus re the Church Fathers.

It ends. It is not incomplete at death, as God accomplished the sanctification, and God appointed the time of death. You premise makes no sense, how does He glorify someone. He glorifies them through the righteousness of Jesus Christ through faith. What are you looking for, a scientific formula?

I'm after the how; you seem to be suggesting that God waits until you are perfect in this life and then, WHAM!, He whisks you off to Heaven. That seems to leave God rather dependent on me and implies that if I continue to sin in just one area of my life, I can't die....!?!

 

[DHK]

It was a question to Agnus re the Church Fathers.


I'm after the how; you seem to be suggesting that God waits until you are perfect in this life and then, WHAM!, He whisks you off to Heaven. That seems to leave God rather dependent on me and implies that if I continue to sin in just one area of my life, I can't die....!?!

Salvation doesn't depend on me.

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Christ keeps it for me. When the thief on the cross cried out to Jesus, there wasn't much time for him to change, but there was some change. Sanctification is a life long process. It has no end. Your salvation is kept in the hand of God. What you do with your life between the time of your salvation and the time of your death will be measured in the rewards you will receive at the judgment of seat in Christ. For some it will be measured in the loss of reward that they could have had, but never in the loss of salvation.

 

[saturneptune]

It was a question to Agnus re the Church Fathers.


I'm after the how; you seem to be suggesting that God waits until you are perfect in this life and then, WHAM!, He whisks you off to Heaven. That seems to leave God rather dependent on me and implies that if I continue to sin in just one area of my life, I can't die....!?!

You just do not get it, do you? God sanctifies you to the point He desires. God ends your time here on earth when He appointed. God does not wait until you are perfect on this earth, otherwise He would have a mighty long wait. Your use of words leaves a lot to be desired. I do not believe the Lord whisks anyone anywhere. Despite what your thought process brings to mind. the Lord is not dependent on any human being, and that includes Mary, Joseph, and Saint Boogly Woogly. We are totally dependent on Him. Since there will always be sin in your life here on earth, and you will die, you must have come to the wrong conclusion either about yourself or the Baptist faith. Again, your premise and question make no sense.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

(Now I'm going to sound like I'm 'batting for the other side', but in the interests of truth and balance and all that...)

I want to pick up on a comment made by Agnus on the previous thread:

The short answer is 'there isn't one'; however, the debate I think is a bit more nuanced than that. You see, there are ECFs who did put forward sola fide (or something pretty close to that). Consider the following extract from Cranmer's Homily on Salvation (Anglican!), where he references Hilary of Poitiers, Basil the Great and Ambrose of Milan:

and I think this is where Holy Tradition should play a role...meaning what has been the teaching of the Church in regard to justification by faith only or faith only justifies from the very beginning...what has been the consensus and teaching of the Church as a whole from the beginning?

I'd like to elaborate more, but i'm at work and my hard drive on my imac died a few days ago, so i'm gonna change it out tonight.

In XC
-

 

[saturneptune]

and I think this is where Holy Tradition should play a role...meaning what has been the teaching of the Church in regard to justification by faith only or faith only justifies from the very beginning...what has been the consensus and teaching of the Church as a whole from the beginning?

I'd like to elaborate more, but i'm at work and my hard drive on my imac died a few days ago, so i'm gonna change it out tonight.

In XC
-

Holy Tradition?? That sounds like one of those sayings on the old Batman TV show by Robin.

 

[Matt Black]

You just do not get it, do you? God sanctifies you to the point He desires. God ends your time here on earth when He appointed. God does not wait until you are perfect on this earth, otherwise He would have a mighty long wait.

Then if I die before I am perfect, how can I stand in His presence? How can the Perfect mingle with the imperfect???

[ETA - it also flatly contradicts your earlier statement on the last page where you say that sanctification is complete at death - which is it?]

 

[saturneptune]

Then if I die before I am perfect, how can I stand in His presence? How can the Perfect mingle with the imperfect???

[ETA - it also flatly contradicts your earlier statement on the last page where you say that sanctification is complete at death - which is it?]

The two statements are in harmony, it is your brain that contradicts itself. How do I stand before Him? Because of the righteousness of Jesus Christ being given to me because of faith.

No one on this earth will ever be completely perfect at death. At that point we are glorified. And after death, I do not need a stop over point for a completion of the sanctification process. It is complete at death, regardless of the progress on earth.

 

[Matt Black]

Explain then how you harmonise the statements above: "No one on this earth will ever be completely perfect at death" and "It is complete at death"?

 

[saturneptune]

Explain then how you harmonise the statements above: "No one on this earth will ever be completely perfect at death" and "It is complete at death"?

Who do you know that was ever sinless (besides Mary, oh and lets dont forget the infallible pope) before they died? They died at a point appointed by God. Now, what do you think happens after death? They go to a Catholic church in the sky and complete the human sancitification process? Do you have any common sense?

 

[Matt Black]

I have plenty of common sense and your contradictory statements make no sense whatsoever. Care to rethink?

 

[saturneptune]

I have plenty of common sense and your contradictory statements make no sense whatsoever. Care to rethink?

No I do not. You never did explain how you view the completion of the human sanctification process. They are not contradictory. You not comprehending does not make it so. I will ask once again, if we die in a sinful state, and you do not believe we immediately stand in His presence (as Scripture says), then how is it done?

 

[Matt Black]

That is has - somehow - to be completed after death in the vast majority of cases; you yourself have acknowledged that it is incomplete at death and therefore must somehow continue post-mortem, as it were. Now, I don't fully buy into the Catholic concept of Purgatory since there is too much emphasis (IMO) on suffering and punishment, but I think on this point they are onto something...

 

[saturneptune]

That is has - somehow - to be completed after death in the vast majority of cases; you yourself have acknowledged that it is incomplete at death and therefore must somehow continue post-mortem, as it were. Now, I don't fully buy into the Catholic concept of Purgatory since there is too much emphasis (IMO) on suffering and punishment, but I think on this point they are onto something...

Pointing to something???????? What does that mean?????????? Is that the best you can do after all those posts??????? It points to the fact you have no idea what you are posting.

The best thing you could do is say 2000 hail marys, twirl your rosery beads around your head 100 times, then stand on your head and repeat the first then catechism questions in Latin.

 

[Matt Black]

What bit don't you think I know what I'm posting? I think I've been quite clear - unlike you who seems to believe in saying 20 impossible things before breakfast.

 

[saturneptune]

What bit don't you think I know what I'm posting? I think I've been quite clear - unlike you who seems to believe in saying 20 impossible things before breakfast.

Your post or beliefs, are nothing but fantasy and myths. A purgatory on the way to heaven. That has got to be the record lame post in this whole discourse. I would suggest you take up a belief in the Roman gods. They make more sense.