Question about a Catholic litany

[saturneptune]

I repeat my question: on what basis do you claim (other than arrogance) that your understanding of Scripture (James in particular) is superior to mine?

I answered it three times. For a Baptist to ask such a question is beyond belief. If the last half dozen or so posts are indicitive of how you interpret Scripture, you need to change faiths.

 

[Matt Black]

So we're not alive in Christ when our life on this earth ends? We're not surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses or come to Mount Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem, where are the spirits of the righteous? Sounds like I'm not the one who needs to re-read Hebrews or understand Scripture better!

[cp with your last post, to which:

1. You haven't answered it at all.

2. I haven't been a Baptist for over two years. I'm Anglican. Sorry if that's not clear from my profile but for some reason I can't change that and no Mod has yet done so, but I did 'come out' publicly about that here at the time.]

 

[saturneptune]

So we're not alive in Christ when our life on this earth ends? We're not surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses or come to Mount Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem, where are the spirits of the righteous? Sounds like I'm not the one who needs to re-read Hebrews or understand Scripture better!

[cp with your last post, to which:

1. You haven't answered it at all.

2. I haven't been a Baptist for over two years. I'm Anglican. Sorry if that's not clear from my profile but for some reason I can't change that and no Mod has yet done so, but I did 'come out' publicly about that here at the time.]

Well, it is good to know that at least. An Anglican is a watered down Catholic minus a pope. We are alive in Christ from the time of salvation for eternity. The crowd of witnesses are not Intercessors, neither are they Mediators. God is capable of taking care of all our needs on His own. Angels also rejoice when one is brought to salvation, but they had no intervention in the act. God did it on His own. And yes, my understanding of Hebrews is light years ahead of yours, as is James and the rest of the Bible.

The Catholic cult decided its own beliefs, and isolates verses in the Bible to back up those beliefs. It totally ignores the fact that all Scirpture is Inspired by the Holy Spirit.

So tell me, do anglicans also believe in Mary and other saint intercessions in prayer, in transubstitution for Communion, and regenerational Baptism. And if you do believe in regenerational Baptism, does just an Anglican bapitsm regenerate, or does the Catholic one also have the magical powers? What about a Baptist or Presbyterian baptism, would those be acceptable to your church for regeneration?

What about the rosery and hail marys. Do you chant those?

 

[saturneptune]

2. I haven't been a Baptist for over two years. I'm Anglican.

Maybe you should rethink that.

 

[Matt Black]

And yes, my understanding of Hebrews is light years ahead of yours, as is James and the rest of the Bible.

Again, I ask you to demonstrate your credentials for this assertion.

The Catholic cult decided its own beliefs, and isolates verses in the Bible to back up those beliefs.

Interesting theory; when would you say it started to do that?

It totally ingnores the fact that all Scirpture is Inspired by the Holy Spirit.

1. It doesn't. 2. On whose interpretation of Scripture should we go? Apparently you think that your interpretation is 'light years ahead' of mine. Should everyone trust yours? Why?

So tell me, do anglicans also believe in Mary and other saint intercessions in prayer, in transubstitution for Communion, and regenerational Baptism.

It depends which Anglicans you ask! Anglicans are about as diverse in their beliefs as Baptists. Broadly speaking, though, some Anglicans (not most and not me personally) ask Mary and the saints to intercede for them. All believe, or are supposed to believe in the Real Presence in communion, but not transubstantiation. On baptism, Anglicans are a bit more nuanced than Catholics, some (particularly the more Calvinist types) believing that it is a ratification of the New Birth rather than effecting the New Birth.

And if you do believe in regenerational Baptism, does just an Anglican bapitsm regenerate, or does the Catholic one also have the magical powers? What about a Baptist or Presbyterian baptism, would those be acceptable to your church for regeneration?

No magic powers, but any baptism done by anyone in water in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is acceptable.

What about the rosery and hail marys. Do you chant those?

Nope.

[ETA - try the Thirty-Nine Articles for a pretty good summary of Anglican belief.]

 

[saturneptune]

Interesting theory; when would you say it started to do that? [ETA - try the Thirty-Nine Articles for a pretty good summary of Anglican belief.]

Oh, about one split second after they were founded as a church, probably anywhere from 500-900 AD depending on which version of their history you believe.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Pure baloney and a total lack of understanding of Scripture. James, the whole book of James, says faith without works is dead. Works are a RESULT of faith, not a means to achieve faith or salvation. Ever heard of the cart before the horse? That is one of those little play on words that makes the Catholic Church the evil entity that it is. If there is no works, there was never any faith or salvation to start with.

As far as your comments on Baptism and Communion, they are also a word game. Water, bread, and wine are symbols. There is no physical magic to it. The only thing that differs from this statement and your first ridiculous one is that a misunderstanding of the first one affects people's eternal destiny.

This shows a total lack of understanding of Scripture.

I've recently been personally struggeling with these verses in Scripture.

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
28When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

It seem putting faith into practice is not an opotion but rather a command that must be heeded. Also I've noticed this and am struggeling with it. Matthew

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Mark

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Luke

6He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you.

7"Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'? 8Would he not rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'? 9Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? 10So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.' "

Interesting this back part of the faith discourse has to do with obedience. John

1The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, 2although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. 3When the Lord learned of this, he left Judea and went back once more to Galilee

also Acts

37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day

During none of these events does Jesus or Peter say to accept Jesus as your personal lord and savior. Baptism is placed as supremely important. Doing God's will is emphasised with faith rather than just faith. This is recurrent through out. Jesus seems to preach the same thing John the Baptist does "repent and be baptized". Peter preaches the same thing "repent and be baptized" with one difference "he is risen!". This is continued throughout the NT. The coined phrases we hear now are nothing like this. Repent and if you want to show that you have be baptised. But baptism has nothing to do with salvation. Thought In these passages its clear. Also the Ethopian Eunich. He was baptised by Philip. But it wasn't a public declaration like we call it because it was just Philip and the Eunich not an assembly yet the Eunich says "its there anything preventing me from baptism?" (paraphrased) I think there is some credibility to this thought with baptism.

 

[saturneptune]

THe concept of faith and works is quite clear. Anyone who is truly saved and was given faith by the Lord will produce works. There is no such thing as saved and lazy for 50 years. Then again, there are those that do works without salvation, that produce them on their own, and (such as the Pharisees) again the works do not save. The difference is that on one hand, works are a result of man's effort, and on the other, they are the out flowing of a work of the Lord.

As far as the regenerational Baptism, you cannot escape Eph 2: 8-9. You must include that in harmony with all the other verses you quoted.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

ETA - try the Thirty-Nine Articles for a pretty good summary of Anglican belief.]

Btw I saw the movie 39 steps. Same thing? :laugh:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

THe concept of faith and works is quite clear. Anyone who is truly saved and was given faith by the Lord will produce works. There is no such thing as saved and lazy for 50 years. Then again, there are those that do works without salvation, that produce them on their own, and (such as the Pharisees) again the works do not save. The difference is that on one hand, works are a result of man's effort, and on the other, they are the out flowing of a work of the Lord.

As far as the regenerational Baptism, you cannot escape Eph 2: 8-9. You must include that in harmony with all the other verses you quoted.

Then aren't you basically saying the same thing?

 

[Matt Black]

Oh, about one split second after they were founded as a church, probably anywhere from 500-900 AD depending on which version of their history you believe.

Interesting. Who founded the Catholic Church?

[ETA - Interesting also that you refer to 'their' history. Catholic history states it was founded by Jesus. I'm interested in when you say it was founded and by whom.]

 

[lori4dogs]

"You have got to be kidding. And as far as the difference between intercession and mediation, that goes for your rotten to the core priests also."

Nothing offensive here SN! You have a hatred for the Catholic Church as well as Catholic priests. It is ABUNDANTLY clear!
I have no problem with people having different interpretations of scripture but droning on about the "Evil Empire' of the Catholic Church is not going to win anyone over. It is offensive and you really need to stop it. Whether you like it or not there are many Catholics who love Jesus just as much as you say you do and I'm afraid your just going to have to put up with us in heaven for eternity.

 

[Matt Black]

I was going to say something about this as well: I have two uncles who are Catholic priests and who love the Lord Jesus as their Lord and Saviour and I find it highly offensive and defamatory to hear them described such. If SN is a gentleman, I have every confidence he will apologise for this slur.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

"You have got to be kidding. And as far as the difference between intercession and mediation, that goes for your rotten to the core priests also."

Nothing offensive here SN! You have a hatred for the Catholic Church as well as Catholic priests. It is ABUNDANTLY clear!
I have no problem with people having different interpretations of scripture but droning on about the "Evil Empire' of the Catholic Church is not going to win anyone over. It is offensive and you really need to stop it. Whether you like it or not there are many Catholics who love Jesus just as much as you say you do and I'm afraid your just going to have to put up with us in heaven for eternity.

Reading your verse made me think of Star Wars episode 6 when Darth Vader lands on the Death star and says the general needs to finish construction because the emperor himself is coming and that "The Emperor is not as merciful as I am" And having watch the movies Darth Vader was not merciful at all. So SN view of this. Pope: "you had better do good works, Jesus is not as merciful as I am" Sorry couldn't help it. Though I believe it inaccurately reflects the Catholic position. It just stuck me as funny. (BTW How could that be offensive?)

 

[saturneptune]

Interesting. Who founded the Catholic Church?

[ETA - Interesting also that you refer to 'their' history. Catholic history states it was founded by Jesus. I'm interested in when you say it was founded and by whom.]

Jesus has nothing to do with the Catholic Church, and, the founder or first pope, whatever you call it, was not Peter.

 

[saturneptune]

"You have got to be kidding. And as far as the difference between intercession and mediation, that goes for your rotten to the core priests also."

Nothing offensive here SN! You have a hatred for the Catholic Church as well as Catholic priests. It is ABUNDANTLY clear!
I have no problem with people having different interpretations of scripture but droning on about the "Evil Empire' of the Catholic Church is not going to win anyone over. It is offensive and you really need to stop it. Whether you like it or not there are many Catholics who love Jesus just as much as you say you do and I'm afraid your just going to have to put up with us in heaven for eternity.

Again, your flawed doctrine comes into play. We know there are many, many Catholics saved despite the catholic church. On the other hand, it is quite clear the catholic church believes Baptists and Protestants are bound for hell.

 

[saturneptune]

I was going to say something about this as well: I have two uncles who are Catholic priests and who love the Lord Jesus as their Lord and Saviour and I find it highly offensive and defamatory to hear them described such. If SN is a gentleman, I have every confidence he will apologise for this slur.

Ya think, I have apologized for some remarks on this board, but you will never get an apology for describing a cult for just what it is, a cult, or their agents.

 

[saturneptune]

Reading your verse made me think of Star Wars episode 6 when Darth Vader lands on the Death star and says the general needs to finish construction because the emperor himself is coming and that "The Emperor is not as merciful as I am" And having watch the movies Darth Vader was not merciful at all. So SN view of this. Pope: "you had better do good works, Jesus is not as merciful as I am" Sorry couldn't help it. Though I believe it inaccurately reflects the Catholic position. It just stuck me as funny. (BTW How could that be offensive?)

It is quite appropriate. The catholic church has about as much validity as a Star Wars movie, spiritually speaking. Actually, the movie is much more entertaining, because the movie admits it is a work of fiction.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It is quite appropriate. The catholic church has about as much validity as a Star Wars movie, spiritually speaking. Actually, the movie is much more entertaining, because the movie admits it is a work of fiction.

Maybe I should watch the film again and photo shop in the Pope for Darth Vader and Jesus Christ for the Emperor? That would be interesting. However, is that how you really view the Roman Catholics?

 

[saturneptune]

Maybe I should watch the film again and photo shop in the Pope for Darth Vader and Jesus Christ for the Emperor? That would be interesting. However, is that how you really view the Roman Catholics?

Tell you what, that is a fair question, but I am going to punt to DHK. You need a second perspective. I have been answering questions for quite a while now. Just to be certain, we need another person in here.