Question about Calvinism

[David Lamb]

Being an unsaved sinner does not remove the ability to make real choices if it did then again we fall back to determinism.
What does Jesus say in John 3:18 "The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged,..."
Both the one who believes and the one who does not believe are in the active voice which means they are ones making the choice. The context {John 3:14-21} shows us Jesus is speaking about the slave to sin being able make real choices regarding their salvation.

Yes He does say the words of John 3:18, but He also says:

“"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.” (Joh 10:26 NKJV)

Not, "You are not of my sheep because you do not believe." Sinners who are described as being dead in trespasses and sins are in no position to make a choice without God first taking action.

 

[DaveXR650]

Which writings would you recommend? I need to see what this guy has to say.

Just get on the Monergism.com website and plug in Freedom of the Will in the search. If you have never tried to read Edwards be prepared to give up and go back several times and to suffer from exploding head syndrome.

 

[Silverhair]

Yes He does say the words of John 3:18, but He also says:

“"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.” (Joh 10:26 NKJV)

Not, "You are not of my sheep because you do not believe." Sinners who are described as being dead in trespasses and sins are in no position to make a choice without God first taking action.

There's a huge difference between diagnosing why a person doesn't believe versus telling them why they cannot believe. It is obvious that you have read this text {John 10:26} as "But you CANNOT believe" so as to fit your sorteriological view.

Reading that verse in context will clear up your error. Joh 10:24-27
Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. They made the choice to not believe.

Jesus encouraged those whom He declared were not His sheep/followers to consider the evidence of His miracles in order to believe in Him and become His sheep/followers. John 10:37-38

God has taken action with which to draw man to Himself. He uses creation, conviction of sin, the gospel message, etc. We are all dead in sin prior to our trusting in God for our salvation.

 

[DaveXR650]

Just get on the Monergism.com website and plug in Freedom of the Will in the search. If you have never tried to read Edwards be prepared to give up and go back several times and to suffer from exploding head syndrome.

Just wanted to add that if your time is limited I noticed that Robert Picirilli's book "FREE WILL REVISITED A Respectful Response to Luther, Calvin, and Edwards" is a good read. He's more on the free will side but I think he explains Edward's take very well and fairly. It's worth the 10 bucks to get it. And you may save your sanity.

 

[Reynolds]

You keep saying that but your posts prove you wrong.

If you say so.

 

[Van]

I would say that God absolutely knows all of the potential outcomes of any potential realities He could create. If I said no then I am limiting His power.
Yes, this is something I don't know if any of us can fully understand. I have always assumed that this has to do with the fact that He entered into creation, took on human flesh and humbled Himself as a servant. I suppose you could say He did limit Himself temporarily but not eternally because He was within the confines of time.
Did God really mean that He had no idea what was going to happen until that moment? I have a hard time accepting that. If God doesn't know what is going to happen at any moment in time then He can't be God and I think this is illustrated in Isaiah 41 when the false gods are put on trial. I think it's more likely that God (who is not bound to time) wanted to demonstrate to Abraham (who is bound to time) the tremendous faith he had and this is the reason why He will bless him and his descendants.

We certainly disagree. I like to think I accept what the bible says, contextually considered, rather than Jesus is God but did not know everything because that is beyond my understanding, rather than my premise, God knows everything imaginable is unfounded. Similarly, when God says "now I know, to question that as Satan questioned God's statement to Eve, did God really mean that, seems unwise.

But in any event, I presented my view that we make a choice that has not been predestined. Certainly not the Calvinist view!.

 

[AFJ]

But in any event, I presented my view that we make a choice that has not been predestined.

There are good points made on both sides. I’d like to know how you think God knows what’s going to happen in the future if choices we make are not predestined.

 

[Van]

There are good points made on both sides. I’d like to know how you think God knows what’s going to happen in the future if choices we make are not predestined.

If God chooses to know what will happen in the future, then that foreknown event will happen as God foreknew. Thus, by choosing not to know who will hear, heed and commit to the gospel fully, God provides us (everyone initially lost) with the choice of life or death, rather than predestining life for some and death for all the rest.

Crystal ball theology is false theology. This is the false premise that God can, being outside time, see any point in history and know what happens. Not biblical.

God declares the end from the beginning says whatever God says will happen in the future, will happen in the future. Thus all of His prophecies are predestined, because He will intervene and make happen what He said will happen. This is very different from "crystal ball" theology, it is biblical theology.

Yes, when God created our universe, He also created "time" as part of the "space-time" continuum, but that does not indicate "time" (lets call it eternal time rather than created time) does not exist in His supernatural realm. Note that the souls in heaven asked "how long" a time will it be until something predestines happens. Thus they were experiencing "eternal time."

Bottom line, check and see if what I say is well supported in scripture, or whether what you had been taught can be supported.

Isaiah 46:10

 

[AFJ]

Thus, by choosing not to know who will hear, heed and commit to the gospel fully, God provides us (everyone initially lost) with the choice of life or death, rather than predestining life for some and death for all the rest.

I haven’t found any scripture that indicates God chooses to limit His knowledge. I have only found that God has have perfect knowledge at all times, otherwise He couldn’t be God.

I know the example of Abraham was used when He said “now I know.” If God already knew to begin with I don’t think that means He was lying. He knows what happened before, He knows what’s happening presently, He knows what’s going to happen in the future. This is how a Being outside of time communicates with someone inside of time.

God declares the end from the beginning says whatever God says will happen in the future, will happen in the future. Thus all of His prophecies are predestined, because He will intervene and make happen what He said will happen.

So in other words, He was to wait and see what free creatures are going to do before He can take action. This leaves gaps in time where He doesn’t know what’s going to happen until they do happen.

 

[Van]

I haven’t found any scripture that indicates God chooses to limit His knowledge. I have only found that God has have perfect knowledge at all times, otherwise He couldn’t be God.

I know the example of Abraham was used when He said “now I know.” If God already knew to begin with I don’t think that means He was lying. He knows what happened before, He knows what’s happening presently, He knows what’s going to happen in the future. This is how a Being outside of time communicates with someone inside of time.

So in other words, He was to wait and see what free creatures are going to do before He can take action. This leaves gaps in time where He doesn’t know what’s going to happen until they do happen.

1. Recall the verses that say God will forgive our sins and remember them no more forever? (Hebrews 8:12) Thus Scripture teaches God can limit His knowledge to whatever He desires. To claim otherwise is to deny God is all-powerful

2. To claim God is not God because He does not have unbiblical attributes is nonsense.

3. Scripture says "now I know" not now I already knew.

4. Scripture indicates God is not outside of time. Only that He created physical time. The fact that His realm experiences time disproves your speculation.

5. Just because God can wait and allow humans to act, does not mean He cannot act, intervene, and bring about any event or circumstance He desires.

 

[AFJ]

1. Recall the verses that say God will forgive our sins and remember them no more forever?

I believe this has to be speaking on human terms. Let’s say that I committed a sin 5 years ago and asked for forgiveness and was forgiven. If I asked Him one day about that moment, what do you think He’s going to tell me? “Sorry, I can’t tell you. That information is no longer revealed to me”? Then He’d fail the test of a true God if He’s not omniscient about any past event. “Remember them no more” must mean that He no longer holds us accountable, as if it never happened in the first place. It would be a contradiction to say He knows everything but He forgets some things.

Isaiah 41:22 (ESV)
Let them bring them, and tell us what is to happen. Tell us the former things, what they are, that we may consider them, that we may know their outcome; or declare to us the things to come

2. To claim God is not God because He does not have unbiblical attributes is nonsense.

Again, my starting point is that God must know the past, present and future. That is the only attribute I’ve been deriving from scripture. Back to the first point, there are instances where God communicates in a way that time bound creatures can understand.

Exodus 32:14 (ESV)
And the Lord relented from the disaster that he had spoken of bringing on his people.

Numbers 23:19 (ESV)
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

Both can’t be true. One has to be the absolute, overarching, defining attribute of God.

3. Scripture says "now I know" not now I already knew.

Yes, God knew in that moment in time but that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s the first time He had knowledge about it. I think it would be like saying I know who wins the football game before I watch the replay.

4. The fact that His realm experiences time disproves your speculation.

2 Peter 3:8 (ESV)
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

5. Just because God can wait and allow humans to act, does not mean He cannot act, intervene, and bring about any event or circumstance He desires.

Acts 4:27-28 (ESV)
for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

So if all of those individuals who crucified Christ had the free choice to repent, there may not have been a crucifixion that took place at all. And if they wanted repent but were forced not to, then I guess they didn’t really have a free will. You’ll probably say that God would have just moved on to some other wicked people. What if they wanted to repent too? What if the entire nation wanted to repent?

 

[Van]

I believe this has to be speaking on human terms.
SNIP
So if all of those individuals who crucified Christ had the free choice to repent, there may not have been a crucifixion that took place at all. And if they wanted repent but were forced not to, then I guess they didn’t really have a free will. You’ll probably say that God would have just moved on to some other wicked people. What if they wanted to repent too? What if the entire nation wanted to repent?

Either we believe the bible means what it says, or we treat the bible like a smorgasbord, taking what we like and leaving the rest.

I do not believe you are responding to what I post. A line like "there may not have been a crucifixion" after I said God intervenes and brings about what He said would happen, shows complete disregard.

 

[AFJ]

A line like "there may not have been a crucifixion" after I said God intervenes and brings about what He said would happen, shows complete disregard.

I appreciate the well thought out answers that have been given. I admit, I do not have a good answer to everything right now. I will absolutely reflect on this some more.

 

[robycop3]

As someone who is not a Calvinist currently, but open to becoming one, I have been presented with a straightfoward question that I have not been able to refute with confidence.

Most Christians will agree that God is all-knowing of future events. Therefore, if God knows every action that I will ever do, can I do anything but what God knows? If I say no, then am I falsifying God's infallible knowledge of the future?

Let me provide a practical example:
Let's say that I hold to a free will position and I confess that God knows what I will have for dinner on Christmas this year. How does God know that? How many free will actions of myself and countless others have to happen to lead to me having dinner on Christmas exactly as God has predicted? Every day between now and Christmas I have to commute 20 miles to my job. If someone exercises their free will, gets drunk, crashes into me and send me Home early before Christmas, has that person's free will now invalidated God's infallible knowledge of the future?

In the past I have said God's knowledge of the future is based on foreknowledge and that He did not necessary determine the future. In other words, when God created time itself, He must have looked down the tunnels of time and, at least temporarily, He was not all-knowing. If God did not determine all events in history, who did? Are they all uncaused? If they are uncaused, how can God have knowledge of them if they are theroetical?

I'll ask my original question again this way. If God knows between now and to the end of time every single person who will ever be saved and who will be lost, can it happen any differently than what God knows or can we exercise our free wills to change the outcome?

It's simple-CALVINISM IS FALSE ! In Scripture, Jesus often said "whoever", but ont one "whoever if elect".

 

[David Lamb]

It's simple-CALVINISM IS FALSE ! In Scripture, Jesus often said "whoever", but ont one "whoever if elect".

But Calvinists and Arminians agree that Jesus said "whoever", but He didn't say "everybody". Rather He said:

“15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (Joh 3:15-16 NKJV)

Calvinists say that according to the bible, it is those sinners whom God has elected that believe. Paul writes of this in Ephesians:

“3 ¶ Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,” (Eph 1:3-9 NKJV)

God chose, predestined, made us accepted, gave redemption.

 

[kyredneck]

I believe this has to be speaking on human terms.

That's Vanology in a nutshell; Humanism.

 

[AFJ]

That's Vanology in a nutshell; Humanism.

Is Vanology a thing or is that a nickname you’ve given to @Van?

 

[Van]

Is Vanology a thing or is that a nickname you’ve given to @Van?

Calvinism is in my opinion false doctrine. Advocates of Calvinism cannot refute the biblical basis that precludes Calvinism. So, rather than fall silent, some advocates resort to name calling and misrepresentation. For example:
1) Vanology agrees with 2 Peter 2:1 that teaches Christ "bought" people heading for destruction. My inference, Christ died for all humanity, not a preselected subset of humanity. Thus He became the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity, 1 John 2:2

2) Vanology agrees with 2 Thessalonians 2:13 that teaches God choose Thessalonians through faith in the truth, thus a conditional election for salvation.

3) Vanology agrees with Matthew 13:18-23 that teaches the lost can some of the time seek God and understand the gospel.

 

[JD731]

As someone who is not a Calvinist currently, but open to becoming one, I have been presented with a straightfoward question that I have not been able to refute with confidence.

Most Christians will agree that God is all-knowing of future events. Therefore, if God knows every action that I will ever do, can I do anything but what God knows? If I say no, then am I falsifying God's infallible knowledge of the future?

Let me provide a practical example:
Let's say that I hold to a free will position and I confess that God knows what I will have for dinner on Christmas this year. How does God know that? How many free will actions of myself and countless others have to happen to lead to me having dinner on Christmas exactly as God has predicted? Every day between now and Christmas I have to commute 20 miles to my job. If someone exercises their free will, gets drunk, crashes into me and send me Home early before Christmas, has that person's free will now invalidated God's infallible knowledge of the future?

In the past I have said God's knowledge of the future is based on foreknowledge and that He did not necessary determine the future. In other words, when God created time itself, He must have looked down the tunnels of time and, at least temporarily, He was not all-knowing. If God did not determine all events in history, who did? Are they all uncaused? If they are uncaused, how can God have knowledge of them if they are theroetical?

I'll ask my original question again this way. If God knows between now and to the end of time every single person who will ever be saved and who will be lost, can it happen any differently than what God knows or can we exercise our free wills to change the outcome?

Ec 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

God does not oversee his creation by the principle of sovereignty or determinism but by providence. Otherwise it would be silly to pray. You asked the Lord for a safe trip on your 20 mile journey and he knows about the drunk up ahead so he delays you with a flat tire along your route so what would have happened did not. This is why he instructs us by saying "In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you."

 

[Martin Marprelate]

God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to passa) yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,(b) nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.(c) : WCF Chapter III. Of God’s Eternal Decree.

That is as clear a statement as you will find. In other words, God decreed whatsoever comes to pass, and in doing so, God (a) is neither the “author of sin” that He unchangeably ordained from eternity past, and also (b) His decree did not eliminate free-will but rather “established” it.

So Dave which is it? God " unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass" thus no free will and God is the author of all the sin and evil or "nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established" thus free will and man is responsible for his sins. That is the obvious contradiction in your WCF. Calvinists love to play both sides of the chess game as that is the only way they can win

Your problem is that, like the Sadducees, you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God (Mark 12:24). The Scriptures plainly teach that God ordains all things (e.g. Matthew 10:29-31) and that He has endued Man with free will.(e.g. Deuteronomy 3:19; Matthew 17:12; James 1:14). Until you submit your puny, earthbound intelligence to the Bible, you will never understand it. Job asked, "Can anyone teach God knowledge?" (Job 21:21). The answer is, no. God's ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts our thoughts. We have to humble ourselves before God (1 Peter 5:6) and admit that He is able to ordain all things and give Man free will whether we can understand it or not (Ephesians 3:20-21)

Man's inability to please God is not something organic. There is nothing in his constitution that prevents him from obeying the command to repent and believe (Mark 1:15). But of themselves men prefer darkness to light (John 3:19) and they want to do their own thing (e.g. Jeremiah 44:16-17). If God left Mankind to his own devices, no one would be saved (Romans 3:9-18). But in His mercy, God has decreed salvation for a vast multitude of people (Revelation 7:9-10). These people God gave to Jesus Christ and He has saved every one of them by His atoning death. Not one of those will be lost (John 6:49).