Question about Calvinism

[Silverhair]

Your problem is that, like the Sadducees, you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God (Mark 12:24). The Scriptures plainly teach that God ordains all things (e.g. Matthew 10:29-31) and that He has endued Man with free will.(e.g. Deuteronomy 3:19; Matthew 17:12; James 1:14). Until you submit your puny, earthbound intelligence to the Bible, you will never understand it. Job asked, "Can anyone teach God knowledge?" (Job 21:21). The answer is, no. God's ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts our thoughts. We have to humble ourselves before God (1 Peter 5:6) and admit that He is able to ordain all things and give Man free will whether we can understand it or not (Ephesians 3:20-21)

Man's inability to please God is not something organic. There is nothing in his constitution that prevents him from obeying the command to repent and believe (Mark 1:15). But of themselves men prefer darkness to light (John 3:19) and they want to do their own thing (e.g. Jeremiah 44:16-17). If God left Mankind to his own devices, no one would be saved (Romans 3:9-18). But in His mercy, God has decreed salvation for a vast multitude of people (Revelation 7:9-10). These people God gave to Jesus Christ and He has saved every one of them by His atoning death. Not one of those will be lost (John 6:49).

If the Calvinist insists that God decrees all things {WCF / LBCF Chapter III. Of God’s Eternal Decree.} that logically includes sin & evil. Those that hold to the TULIP/DoG are just fooling themselves.

That you think God knowing what will happen (Matthew 10:29-31) means that He ordains/decrees all that happens shows just how little you understand scripture.I find it funny that you say I know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God when what you are presenting as understanding the truth of God is just your clouded version of His word. As I have seen many times from calvinists they misuse Romans 3 in the vain effort to support their view. All you had to do was keep reading and you would see your error Romans 3:8-20 was written to the Jews to show them that keeping the law will not save them.

God desires all to come to repentance and salvation but under the false calvinist view He picked out a set number prior to creation and the rest are doomed for no other reason than He did not pick them. It is not their sin that dooms them as they were doomed prior to them even existing.

You have misused His word in your attempt to support what you consider the truth.

 

[kyredneck]

Is Vanology a thing or is that a nickname you’ve given to @Van?

The founder of Vanology is consumed with hatred for Sovereign Grace so much that it drives him to rewrite and twist scripture (known as Vanology) to support his anti-Sovereign Grace obsession.

 

[kyredneck]

The Scriptures plainly teach that God ordains all things

Foreknowing is NOT foreordaining.

"Foreknowing...:

19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach thou it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.
20 For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, flowing with milk and honey, and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxed fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and despise me, and break my covenant.
21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are come upon them, that this song shall testify before them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they frame this day, before I have brought them into the land which I sware. Dt 31

...is not foreordaining:

31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind. Jer 7

5 and have built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons in the fire for burnt-offerings unto Baal; which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: Jer 19

35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. Jer 32"

Question about Calvinism | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Foreknowing is NOT foreordaining.

Yes. And....?

But tell me:

31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind. Jer 7

Do you think that all this came as a complete surprise and shock to Almighty God?

 

[kyredneck]

Yes. And....?

But tell me:

Do you think that all this came as a complete surprise and shock to Almighty God?

NO! It did not! That’s HALF the point. God foreknew Israel would apostasise, yet He did not foreordain it. The two are not the same. He didn’t command it, neither was it in His mind.

 

[DaveXR650]

NO! It did not! That’s HALF the point. God foreknew Israel would apostasise, yet He did not foreordain it. The two are not the same. He didn’t command it, neither was it in His mind.

You are defining "foreordain" as if it was the same as "cause". I'm not saying you can't find a dictionary that in one of it's definitions will overlap the meanings. What I can say is that if you read this in the way the theologians who discussed this used the terms they are not the same.

If God knows that Israel, in spite of clear warnings to the contrary, is going to worship Baal, then if God knows this he can do what?
1. He can do something to stop this or prevent it from happening, and this can be anything from causing catastrophe or hardship or even destruction to just changing their hearts.
2. Or, he can, knowing they will do this, allow it to occur. In that case he is said to ordain it.

So the question then is "Once it is known that it will happen, and once it is known that God is not going to stop it from happening, then will it certainly and infallibly happen". The answer is Yes, it will just as infallibly happen as if God caused it to happen but can God be said to cause it? Your answer to that question will determine where you will come down on these issues.

One other thing. I can anticipate the objection from the free willers. Are the Israelites not free to change their minds? Yes, but once it is ordained then a change would mean that God does not have real foreknowledge. And the other thing is that in the foreknowledge of the events above the Israelites are acting according to their own free will. (And for a free willer, what more important "cause" can there be?) So you have free will in action, God's foreknowledge and his allowing something to happen according to his own plan and purpose. You have God ordaining all that comes to pass while not violating man's free will. Now if you were to write this down ahead of time, as in a prophesy, guess what, it becomes a "decree" of what is "ordained" by God and will infallibly happen - while not violating the free will of his creatures.

 

[AFJ]

There has been good argumentation given on both sides and I will ponder on how this all fits together. Thanks to everyone who provided feedback and I do encourage this discussion to continue elsewhere. I would like to request a moderator to close this thread now please.

 

[robycop3]

But Calvinists and Arminians agree that Jesus said "whoever", but He didn't say "everybody". Rather He said:

“15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (Joh 3:15-16 NKJV)

Calvinists say that according to the bible, it is those sinners whom God has elected that believe. Paul writes of this in Ephesians:

“3 ¶ Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,” (Eph 1:3-9 NKJV)

God chose, predestined, made us accepted, gave redemption.

Who does "whoever" exclude? Who, among living people, is excluded, no matter what? Did Jesus ever turn away anyone who truly sought to be saved by Him?

 

[kyredneck]

ican God be said to cause it?

The anti-Cals never tire of accusing Cals of making God out to be the author of sin. My point with the scripture cited is no, just because He knows it’s going to happen and does nothing to stop it can He be accused of being the cause of it. This is also mainstream PB teaching.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Whom does "whoever" exclude?

"Whoever else" is excluded.

Who, among living people, is excluded, no matter what? Did Jesus ever turn away anyone who truly sought to be saved by Him?

No indeed. The Lord Jesus says, "The one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." But immediately before that, He says, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me." When people come freely to Christ in repentance and faith, it is because God the Father has loved from from before the foundation of the world, given them to God the Son who has redeemed them with His own blood, and God the Spirit has drawn them irresistibly. Unless this happens, no one will be saved, because they will not come because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts. John 3:19; 5:40; 6:44; Romans 3:10-18; 1 Corinthians 2:14 etc.

 

[37818]

The anti-Cals never tire of accusing Cals of making God out to be the author of sin.

I am an anti-calvinist. By God foreknowning the fall make God the author of sin? The tree of knowledge of good and evil He created was, He knew, essential in order for the fall to take.place.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Closed at the request of the OP.