Question about gays

[James_Newman]

If a person falls into the sin of homosexuality, it is very possible that they may have to carry around some of the scars of their sin for the rest of their life. I think this is true of most any sin that people become caught up in. So wether or not a person still has desires toward people of the same sex after repenting or being delivered of the sin would be no true indicator of homosexuality being an inheritted trait. I desire drugs, cigarrettes and alcohol sometimes. This is stuff that I have given up through the power of the Lord. It is not surprising then that I might find myself desiring those things that I once indulged in.

Proverbs 26:11
11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

Our sin will always be happy to receive us back if we do not strive to continue in the Word. The backslider must have something to slide back to.

 

[Ben W]

How many Christians that condemn gay people, view Porn?

I was told of one occassion where a hotel in the U.S hosted a Christian Pastors Convention, and set the record that weekend for the number of pay per view porn films ordered to different rooms.

I am quite open that I do not accept Homosexual acts as being ok, if you are engaging in that activity, you are not right before God and as such are in a sin that leads to death.

Yet so to is anyone else that is indulging in Adultery, Porneia, Fantasy or whatever else there is that is a sexual sin.

If we did a poll here and I would not because I feel that the content would likely be edited, how many people would confess to being addicted to Porn, partaking in Adultery or other stuff that is wrong, I am tipping that for both groups it would be a high response, and as one poster here has pointed out, Satan is well ahead on this subject because he can ensnare people easily by it.

Divorce rates in churches are no different to the secular world. Satan is attacking hard and fast in this area, and it is Christians that are to weak to stand up to temptation that are encouraging it on. What the church needs right now is a good old fashioned holiness revival as preached by Billy Graham in the 1960's.

Yet for all the associated problems, the fact is that Christians are called to preach the Gospel to all, and that includes anyone in the Gay Community.

Dave Wilkerson at the height of race problems made a statement that Christians do not need to be calling anyone by racial names such as certain derogatory terms to describe people of another race or colour. Whatever we think of people that are Gay, Christians have no right to use abusive terms to describe them. We hate sin, but we love the sinner dearly in Christ. I think that you will find that a number of Christians are in approval of what Fred Phelps does in order to abuse people that are in the gay community, some probably even are amused by it. Yet all that they have achieved is to place a stumbling block in front of people that they are turned away from hearing the Gospel.

Jesus called Zaccheus down from that tree and ate with him, even thought he was despised by people and was into some prety serious sins. Jesus was condemned for that action. Maybe if we got serious about Christianity and invited people are in sin to our tables, we might have that opportunity to set them free from the bondage that they are in. Yet that spirit of Fear from Satan is often far to powerfull for anything like that.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Hearing something about pastors setting a record for viewing porn does not make it a fact.

Sin is sin. Homosexuals need the gospel like all other sinners.

 

[blackbird]

Originally posted by C4K:
[QB] Hearing something about pastors setting a record for viewing porn does not make it a fact.

QB]

You're right, Roger! Seems every year---around "Convention" time---always 3rd week in June---wherever the convention city is---media will "bear down" on area hotel computer readouts of porn being dumped into hotels---and then hooking the rash onto visits from SBC pastors!!!

I book all my convention meetings through a agency called Christian Travelers----these guys book a hotel for ya----and each room's television set is "blocked"(by Christian Travelers) from the pay-per-view channels that carry porn.

Seems like, though, that when folks start talking about HS----one or two will no doubt try to change subjects to

"What about the preachers and their porn??"

 

[Ben W]

Nobody is changing the subject to anything! No one has said that Homosexuality is not sin!

Pornea includes any sexual sin.

What I would like to know is how many people here have attempted to share the Gospel with a gay person?

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

I usually have the opportunity daily and I take it every chance I get...

 

[RockRambler]

The Greek society was rampant with homosexuality during the years the New Testament was written, and during the life of Christ, but is amazingly quiet on the topic. One would think Paul would have had more to say on the subject given the profane history.

There is a school of thought among some Biblical scholars that Paul himself was a non-practicing homosexual, and that is why he was so overwhelmed by the thought of being saved by grace instead of good works.


A non-practicing homosexual is no different from a non-practicing adulterer. They may have the desire, but if they don't act on it and turn to God for guidance and forgivenes, then their sins are forgiven just like any other Christian.

I think it can be genetic or choice, but acting on the desire is an entirely different matter, IMO.

 

[blackbird]

Originally posted by RockRambler:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The Greek society was rampant with homosexuality during the years the New Testament was written, and during the life of Christ, but is amazingly quiet on the topic. One would think Paul would have had more to say on the subject given the profane history.

There is a school of thought among some Biblical scholars that Paul himself was a non-practicing homosexual, and that is why he was so overwhelmed by the thought of being saved by grace instead of good works.


A non-practicing homosexual is no different from a non-practicing adulterer. They may have the desire, but if they don't act on it and turn to God for guidance and forgivenes, then their sins are forgiven just like any other Christian.

I think it can be genetic or choice, but acting on the desire is an entirely different matter, IMO. </font>[/QUOTE]There is not one iota of a shread of a piece of evidence from the Bible that would cause us to even consider the thought of the Apostle Paul being a non-practicing HS. Those "Schools of Thought" think with minds filled with corruption!!!

 

[SeekingTruth]

Rock Rambler,

It is easy to attribute things to that famous, but anonymous "Schools of Thought". Who are the people in that school? Can you name a few?

Ben W, while it may be true that some Christians watch porn, but what does that have to do with the topic of discussion? I think you are tossing in a few pounds of red herrings. And yes, Christians are to witness to all, homosexual or not. But, I don't think that we are called to visit the places where they congregate. Yes, Christ went to places I would not go, but He also did and does other things I cannot or would not do. Example: He walked on water, changed water into wine, healed the lepers, gave sight to blind, made the lame to walk, raised Lazarus from the dead, etc. I say this to point out that our witness canot be universal.

Although I am convinced that we must provide a good witness, salvation is totally in the province of a Sovereign God. We can witness until our death, but salvation is of the Loprd.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Not really Ben. We know that the human body and its genetic structure has been affected by sin. It is not hard to imagine that a bent towards homosexuality is part of that. The image of God has been marred by sin.

I would disagree that sin nature or the image of God in humans is genetic in nature since God has no genetics or physical form. But I would agree that the image of God in humans has been marred by sin.

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I don't think it matters. Here is what we know for sure. Sexual choices are a choice. When a man has sexual relations with another man, it is a choice. When a man has sexual relations with a woman, it is a choice. There may be a "bent" towards one kind or the other, but the actions and thoughts are choices we make. No one is forced to have sex with anyone (apart from rape). We need not, even cannot give up the "choice issue."

Agreed. While genetic predispositions may influence our choices, sin and sexual relations are still ultimately our choices that are not excused by genetic predisposition.

However as people with dispositions and sin struggles of our own, we should be understanding of those who struggle with homosexuality, while not excusing it or saying that it isn't sin.

What I suspect often happens from two Christian views of homosexuality is either transferrence of our own self-loathing of our sin onto someone else we percieve as having "worse" sin like a homosexual. Or attempts to justify the sin to help us justify our own sin to deal with that same self-loathing.

One results in desiring the condemnation of homosexuals and the other results in desiring the justification of homosexual sin.

But the message of grace in Christ deals with it already by saying that Christ forgives and justifies all sin. We are free from the bondage of sin and self-loathing.

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Some would object that if there is a homosexual genetic bent, forbidding them to act on it is cruel or mean, or doesn't allow them to be who they are. But that is true with all of us in all areas. We are sinners by nature. God calls us to holiness, thus calling us to deny what we are born with ... an innate sin nature.

Agreed. While homosexuality does not have clear genetic link, there are clear genetic links towards other behaviours like alcoholism and violence. The genetic link does not justify the behaviour.

 

[Jeffrey H]

Are gays born that way or do they have a choice ?

It is a choice. Homosexuality, including heterosexual adultery and fornication, are choices we make and we are guilty and accountable to God for them.

Is there a genetic predisposition towards homosexuality? Possibly, but all of us are still without excuse.

Is there a genetic predisposition towards adultery? Possibly, but all of us are still without excuse.

 

[TexasSky]

Ben,

I do not look at a person's sexuality when it comes to sharing the gospel or praying for them.

I also do not think that homosexuality is "worse" than other sins. I just think that society has gone from trying to be understanding and tolerant to a society that promotes it.

 

[dianetavegia]

Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

I believe a homosexual can become a Christian but a true convert would fight those temptations even if it were a daily or moment to moment fight.

Matt. 10:38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

I do not believe a real Christian can turn to homosexuality and live in such a lifestyle with no conviction or repentance. (I have a female relative, almost my age, who is drawn to this lifechoice.)

 

[blackbird]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Ben,

I do not look at a person's sexuality when it comes to sharing the gospel or praying for them.

I also do not think that homosexuality is "worse" than other sins. I just think that society has gone from trying to be understanding and tolerant to a society that promotes it.

The truth of the word of God tells us that homosexuality IS worse than other sins. See---thats the problem that many, many believers have--we say, "A sin is a sin is a sin like any other sin." when the word of God tells us otherwise.

Read carefully the truth of 1Corinthians 6: 18, "Flee fornication(Homosexuality is included--emphasis added mine). Every sin that a man doeth is without the body: but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body."

Obviously---God looks at it a little differently than we do, doesn't He??? the truth is----when we engage in sexual misconduct---every aspect of our lives come into play---our soul, our spirit, our emotions, our bodies. Every aspect of our self---both inner man and outer man---becomes effected and infected with sin.

Don't ever let anybody tell you that sexual sin is no different that any other sin---when the truth of the word tells us otherwise.

All one has to do is scan over 1Corinthians 16-20!!!

Bro. David

 

[TexasSky]

Blackbird,

I lovingly point out to you that the bible says you are wrong.

James 2:8
If you really keep the royal law found in scritpure, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favortism, you sin, and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at one point is guilty of breaking all of it. . 11 For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not committ adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

You cannot set the sins of the flesh/body above the greatest sins, as Christ listed them. So, even if you were correct in saying there are "levels" of sin, the greatest sin would be not loving God, and the second greatest would be not loving your neighbor.

When the woman was caught in adultry, Christ didn't say, "Let you who have never committed a sexual sin cast the first stone,"

Christ said, "Let you who are without sin cast the first stone."

You either break the law of God, or you do not break the law of God. In God's eye, obedience to God is the key.

That said, on the reverse end of this, this is exactly why I am so against saying, "Oh, they can't help it, lets embrace them."

We do not embrace any other sin. Why do we make exceptions for sins like the one being discussed in this thread?

Sin is sin. Wrong is wrong. We could make arguements for any sin being natural, since all flesh urges are deemed natural by mankind, but that would not change them from being sinful in God's eyes.

 

[dianetavegia]

I agree with Blackbird here. I believe the sin against one's own body is because of this verse.

1 Corinthians 6:15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For "the two," He says, "shall become one flesh." 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him........... 19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

 

[TexasSky]

Diane,

Then how do you respond to the verse in James?

 

[RockRambler]

I did NOT say that I believed Paul was a non-practicing homosexual, just that some biblical scholars do. At some seminaries this theory is discussed. If you do a google search you will find many threads to the topic.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by RockRambler:
I did NOT say that I believed Paul was a non-practicing homosexual, just that some biblical scholars do. At some seminaries this theory is discussed. If you do a google search you will find many threads to the topic.

The idea is ridiculous for numerous reasons.

Paul went from being a pharisee of the pharisees to an Apostle. Jewish law treated homosexuals just like adulterers... it certainly didn't put them on the "fast track" or into its best school.

 

[RockRambler]

Scott....that is what the theory is based on. Since Jewish Law was so dead set against homosexuals, Paul knew he could never be made pure under the Jewish Law. But once he discovered Christianity, he found he could be saved by grace, even if he was a homosexual (non-practicing). That is why Paul embrace grace, instead of good works and keeping the Law, as Jewish Laws taught. He was a studier of the Law, which he could well have been as long as his homosexuality was open and known.

If he was a nonpracticing homosexual, couldn't God have forgiven him and still made him a great Apostle?

That is an abbreviated edition of the theory.