Question concerning sin.

[agedman]

Which doesn’t answer the question. Why did John tell us to confess our sins to God and He would be faithful to forgive our sins if the death of Jesus already obtained that forgives for those sins?

peace to you

In my response to Iconoclast I mentioned that sin has consequences. Romans 1 gives the consequences.

Although believers would like to consider themselves above such consequences, the consequences remain in effect.

Therefore the need of John 1.

Some have the thinking that sin is non-existent in a believer as a result of the work of the blood, but this is error.

"The soul that sins will surely die." All die.

The cleansing of unrighteousness would result in a healing. This principle is also part of James' teaching,

13Is any one of you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone cheerful? He should sing praises. 14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.15And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.
​

What happens if they are unsuccessful? Does not the person physically continue to suffer or even the body ceases to be viable?

For the unbeliever, there is the judgment of whether their name is written or not and eternal condemnation follows.
For the believer, there is the judgment of Christ as to that done for Him, but no condemnation is upon their eternity.

 

[canadyjd]

In my response to Iconoclast I mentioned that sin has consequences. Romans 1 gives the consequences.

Although believers would like to consider themselves above such consequences, the consequences remain in effect.

Therefore the need of John 1.

Some have the thinking that sin is non-existent in a believer as a result of the work of the blood, but this is error.

"The soul that sins will surely die." All die.

The cleansing of unrighteousness would result in a healing. This principle is also part of James' teaching,

13Is any one of you suffering? He should pray. Is anyone cheerful? He should sing praises. 14Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.15And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.
​

What happens if they are unsuccessful? Does not the person physically continue to suffer or even the body ceases to be viable?

For the unbeliever, there is the judgment of whether their name is written or not and eternal condemnation follows.
For the believer, there is the judgment of Christ as to that done for Him, but no condemnation is upon their eternity.

You seem to be splitting hairs. God’s forgiveness does not exempt someone from the consequences of sin.

The idea all sins, past present, future; of all people; are already forgiven doesn’t seem to be supported by scripture, thus the instruction by John to confess your sin and God will faithfully forgive you.

Peace to you

 

[JesusFan]

You seem to be splitting hairs. God’s forgiveness does not exempt someone from the consequences of sin.

The idea all sins, past present, future; of all people; are already forgiven doesn’t seem to be supported by scripture, thus the instruction by John to confess your sin and God will faithfully forgive you.

Peace to you

Jesus died for and in the place of all saved by Him, and while that means all sins are forever forgiven and cleansed, from our perspective need to confess and repent of them in order to keep fellowship with God, as we have an eternal relationship established already

 

[JesusFan]

Revelation 3;5, ". . . He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. . . ." Doesn't say what you claimed.

We will overcome, as jesus already has, that is assurance that all saved shall indeed reach final state saved!

 

[JesusFan]

I agree and as a result all will meet that fate.




I agree just as all will die in their sins. The problem isn't death, the determination of what takes place after death rests upon whether a person is a new creature in Christ or not.



Here is the text:

21Then He said to them again, “I am going away and you will seek Me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you are not able to come.”​

Note: The "you will seek me" does not pertain to salvation, but the physical presence of Christ. He showed Himself specifically to specific people after the resurrection.

22Therefore the Jews were saying, “Will He kill Himself, that He says, ‘Where I go, you are not able to come’?”

23And He was saying to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

25Therefore they were saying to Him, “Who are You?”

Jesus said to them, “Just what I am saying to you from the beginning. 26I have many things to say and to judge concerning you. But the One having sent Me is true; and I what I have heard from Him, these things I say to the world.”

27They did not understand that He was speaking to them about the Father. 28Therefore Jesus said to them, “When you shall have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing from Myself; but as the Father taught Me, I speak these things. 29And the One having sent Me is with Me. He has not left Me alone, because I always do the things pleasing to Him.”​

Note: I do not see the wrath of God mentioned in the context.
What I do see is what we both agree, that one without Christ faces the results of unbelief and one who is a believer is given everlasting life (in the next portion of the text not copied.)





Surprisingly, The Romans 1 passage states exactly how that wrath is manifested.

Such is done while that person is still living, and not after death.

The Scriptures are "unmistakably clear" that when folks face the judgement seat of God, they are not condemned because of the deeds of the flesh.

They are justly judged by the book of life. No name - no life.

This is important for even a believer who engages in the type of depravity will suffer the mental and physical judgment of God, yet as Romans 8 states that there is no condemnation with those in Christ Jesus.

I am not presenting that the believer can sin without rebuke. I think that is the reason John is concerned that believers truthfully confess and are cleansed. (John 1)

King david perfect example to us of a man whose sins were fully forgiven, and yet he still experience terrible troubles due to his sins!

 

[37818]

We will overcome, as jesus already has, that is assurance that all saved shall indeed reach final state saved!

So why the need of the promise "I will not blot out his name out of the book" if only those who will never become lost are the only names ever to be in the book?
First reference, Exodus 32:32-33.
Second reference, Psalms 69:27-28 is commonly identified as the book of life in Revelation. NASB so translates and cross references.

 

[canadyjd]

Jesus died for and in the place of all saved by Him, and while that means all sins are forever forgiven and cleansed, from our perspective need to confess and repent of them in order to keep fellowship with God, as we have an eternal relationship established already

Maybe I misunderstood the question. I agree with your statement concerning maintaining a right relationship with God.

We have a right relationship with God through faith in Christ. We have indwelling Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. Our relationship, through Christ, cannot be undone (can’t lose salvation) God disciplines those He lives.

However, all sins past, present , future already forgiven? Past sins, certainly forgiven at salvation.

But if present sins are already forgiven, why would they grieve God Holy Spirit? Why does scripture tell us to confess our sin to God and He is faithful to forgive our sin?

Is there any scripture that supports the doctrine that sin sin, past, present, future are already forgiven for anyone, much less all of humanity?

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

So why the need of the promise "I will not blot out his name out of the book" if only those who will never become lost are the only names ever to be in the book?
First reference, Exodus 32:32-33.
Second reference, Psalms 69:27-28 is commonly identified as the book of life in Revelation. NASB so translates and cross references.

Your focus is backward. You have all of humanity starting out “saved” and then loosing their salvation when they sin.

Scripture tells us all of humanity starts lost and God brings His chosen to salvation.

You are reading a false doctrine into those passages.

peace to you

 

[37818]

Your focus is backward. You have all of humanity starting out “saved” and then loosing their salvation when they sin.

How do you understand Mark 10:14-15, ". . . Jesus . . . said unto them, Allow the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. . . ."

 

[JesusFan]

Maybe I misunderstood the question. I agree with your statement concerning maintaining a right relationship with God.

We have a right relationship with God through faith in Christ. We have indwelling Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. Our relationship, through Christ, cannot be undone (can’t lose salvation) God disciplines those He lives.

However, all sins past, present , future already forgiven? Past sins, certainly forgiven at salvation.

But if present sins are already forgiven, why would they grieve God Holy Spirit? Why does scripture tell us to confess our sin to God and He is faithful to forgive our sin?

Is there any scripture that supports the doctrine that sin sin, past, present, future are already forgiven for anyone, much less all of humanity?

peace to you

They have all been atoned for and paid for by the shed blood of Christ, but still admonish to walk in the light and keep being cleansed by the blood of Christ

 

[agedman]

Those in the New Covenant have the promise their sins will not in any way be remembered, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 10:17.

I am relying on a faulty memory, but isn't this promise concerning the returning of Israel to the land, and in more particular the bringing them into the millennial kingdom?

I know that some believers consider they abide in this promise, but that doesn't have foundational true abode when taking into consideration the letters of John and Paul and their expressions concerning the believer's living and sinful character.

There is no condemnation, but there is certainly a remembering of sin when it comes to service and character in the earthly estate.

 

[JesusFan]

I am relying on a faulty memory, but isn't this promise concerning the returning of Israel to the land, and in more particular the bringing them into the millennial kingdom?

I know that some believers consider they abide in this promise, but that doesn't have foundational true abode when taking into consideration the letters of John and Paul and their expressions concerning the believer's living and sinful character.

There is no condemnation, but there is certainly a remembering of sin when it comes to service and character in the earthly estate.

Are we fully Justified by God and received from the father Imputed righteousness of Christ in full, or is it just partial, and God waits on seeing on how well we act then?
I see this as justified in full when saved

 

[percho]

Which doesn’t answer the question. Why did John tell us to confess our sins to God and He would be faithful to forgive our sins if the death of Jesus already obtained that forgives for those sins?

peace to you

Your thoughts per your question relative to the following thoughts?

On the 14th day of the first month the Lamb of God, Jesus died for our sins, thus our Passover was sacrificed for us, thus:
as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: from 1 Cor 5:7 last part

V 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

keep the feast of unleavened bread, seven days, 15th a holy convocation to 21 st a holy convocation. All your life through confession.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[agedman]

Maybe I misunderstood the question. I agree with your statement concerning maintaining a right relationship with God.

We have a right relationship with God through faith in Christ. We have indwelling Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. Our relationship, through Christ, cannot be undone (can’t lose salvation) God disciplines those He lives.

However, all sins past, present , future already forgiven? Past sins, certainly forgiven at salvation.

But if present sins are already forgiven, why would they grieve God Holy Spirit? Why does scripture tell us to confess our sin to God and He is faithful to forgive our sin?

Is there any scripture that supports the doctrine that sin sin, past, present, future are already forgiven for anyone, much less all of humanity?

peace to you

Perhaps you take forgiven as to also mean not suffer any consequence.

When my children were young, I would forgive them for a breach, but that did not remove the consequences of the behavior.

When one is redeemed, the breach between God and that person is bridged by belief. However, just because such a bridge is made that cannot be unmade, does not mean that the traffic on the bridge can not be hindered.

A right relationship between God and Man resolves to Man following the commandments of God, especially the two great commandments. "The one having My commandments and keeping them, he is the one loving Me. Now the one loving Me will be loved by My Father. And I will love him, and will show Myself to him."

 

[canadyjd]

How do you understand Mark 10:14-15, ". . . Jesus . . . said unto them, Allow the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. . . ."

Am I suppose to guess the relevance of this verse to the discussion?

Ok, I’ll try.

If you believe all children, infants etc go to heaven when they die it is not because they don’t have sin, but because God chose them for salvation and made it happen.

peace to you

 

[37818]

I am relying on a faulty memory, but isn't this promise concerning the returning of Israel to the land, and in more particular the bringing them into the millennial kingdom?

On the whole. But it is fulfilled now as discribed in Hebrews 8:8-12 and Hebrews 10:16-17. The New Covenant aka the New Testament now. With Jeremiah 31:34 and Hebrews 8:11 as yet future for what you were refering.

I know that some believers consider they abide in this promise, but that doesn't have foundational true abode when taking into consideration the letters of John and Paul and their expressions concerning the believer's living and sinful character.

There is no condemnation, but there is certainly a remembering of sin when it comes to service and character in the earthly estate.

There is what is now. Romans 8:1. And the promise in 1 John 1:8-10 - 1 John 2:1-2 with 1 Timothy 2:4-6. Noting 1 John 1:9 for our on going cleansing.
Then there is our standing before God through Christ. Romans 4:15, 1 John 3:4-6 where we are counted as sinless not being under the Law, Romans 6:14, ". . . For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. . . ." 1 John 3:6, ". . . Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. . . ." This is a legel standing in Christ, 1 John 3:4, Romans 4:15. Galatians 3:10-13. Colossians 2:13-17. Etc.

 

[37818]

Am I suppose to guess the relevance of this verse to the discussion?

Ok, I’ll try.

If you believe all children, infants etc go to heaven when they die it is not because they don’t have sin, but because God chose them for salvation and made it happen.

peace to you

Yes. And this has to do with the general redemption by which all mankind was placed in the book of life. But once one comes of age one must be born over, per John 3:3 which is what Jesus was speaking about in Mark 10:15. Hence Nicodemus' question, ". . . How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? . . ." To which Jesus explains, in John 3:5-18. Which has to do with the limited atonement, John 10:15, where Jesus said, ". . .I lay down my life for the sheep. . . ." So the general redemption has a two fold purpose, secondary and primary, as in Romans 8:34, ". . . Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. . . ." Per 1 Timothy 2:4-6.

1 John 5:4-5, ". . . For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? . . ."

The new birth so are name never gets removed, Revelation 3:5, ". . . He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. . . ."

 

[JesusFan]

Yes. And this has to do with the general redemption by which all mankind was placed in the book of life. But once one comes of age one must be born over, per John 3:3 which is what Jesus was speaking about in Mark 10:15. Hence Nicodemus' question, ". . . How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? . . ." To which Jesus explains, in John 3:5-18. Which has to do with the limited atonement, John 10:15, where Jesus said, ". . .I lay down my life for the sheep. . . ." So the general redemption has a two fold purpose, secondary and primary, as in Romans 8:34, ". . . Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. . . ." Per 1 Timothy 2:4-6.

ALL before saved are under the Fall of dam, and are judged as guilty sinners, so all saved even as babes are due to the grace of God period

IF you view is the right one, why even send out the good news, for if all already in a saved state, why risk them rejecting the message and thus getting lost?

 

[37818]

ALL before saved are under the Fall of dam, and are judged as guilty sinners, so all saved even as babes are due to the grace of God period

IF you view is the right one, why even send out the good news, for if all already in a saved state, why risk them rejecting the message and thus getting lost?

Only if everyone dies as a little child to young too understand good and evil which causes us to be dead in sin.

1 John 5:4-5, ". . . For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? . . ."

The new birth so are name never gets removed, Revelation 3:5, ". . . He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. . . ."

 

[canadyjd]

Yes. And this has to do with the general redemption by which all mankind was placed in the book of life. But once one comes of age one must be born over, per John 3:3 which is what Jesus was speaking about in Mark 10:15. Hence Nicodemus' question, ". . . How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? . . ." To which Jesus explains, in John 3:5-18. Which has to do with the limited atonement, John 10:15, where Jesus said, ". . .I lay down my life for the sheep. . . ." So the general redemption has a two fold purpose, secondary and primary, as in Romans 8:34, ". . . Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. . . ." Per 1 Timothy 2:4-6.

1 John 5:4-5, ". . . For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? . . ."

The new birth so are name never gets removed, Revelation 3:5, ". . . He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. . . ."

There is no scripture to supports doctrine of “age of accountability”. There is no scripture to support your doctrine of general revelation makes everyone saved until they sin.

peace to you