Question for Calvinists

[Winman]

Are we all born then with same nature as jesus had, an uncorrupted sinless state?

I believe that is what the scriptures teach.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

The Bible says God has made man upright, but they (plural) have sought out many (plural) inventions. The word "they" shows this verse is speaking of all men, not just Adam, and the word "many" shows men go astray in their own personal sin, not the single sin of Adam as many falsely teach.

Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

The Bible says men have corrupted themselves. The word corrupt means to go from a good state to a bad state.

Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

Does the Bible teach that men are evil from birth? NOPE, it teaches that men's imaginations are evil from their youth.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Does this famous proof text for Original Sin teach that men are born evil? NOPE, it teaches that "the wicked" (not all men) "go astray" as soon as they be born. This Psalm is not even speaking of all men, in verses 10 and 11 the same Psalm speaks of "the righteous".

10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

This Psalm hardly teaches that all men are born sinful. At the very best it could teach that only some men, "the wicked" are born evil, but it doesn't even teach that. It teaches they "go astray" as the lamb Jesus described in Luke 15, or the prodigal son who left his home in the same chapter.

The scriptures say Jesus was made of "the same" flesh and blood as us, and took on the nature of "the seed of Abraham".

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus was made like his brethren the Jews in "all things". He "suffered" being tempted. He could feel temptation and the weakness of our infirmities just like us.

Jesus had the same nature as man. That is how he could relate to us and be a compassionate high priest for us.

Man is not born sinful, but all men choose to go out in sin and become sinful.

Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Men are not born filthy, they "go aside" and "become filthy" like the prodigal son in Luke 15.

Quit listening to the false doctrines of men and read God's word and you will see this over and over and over again.

 

[kyredneck]

Plus, Brother John, you can see Jonah used as an OT picture of Christ to come later on...


-- He was in the whale's belly 3 days and nights....
-- Jesus was in the tomb for 3 days and nights...
-- Jonah fell asleep in the bottom of the ship...
-- Jesus fell asleep in the bottom of the ship...
-- Jonah had some people wake him afraid they would perish...
-- Jesus had some people wake Him afraid they would perish...
-- Jonah cried out, feeling like he was left alone...
-- Jesus cried out, feeling like He was left alone...


Now, Jonah did things that Jesus would have never did, but you can see Jonah as an OT picture of Christ. Jesus even referenced Jonah's whale experience as a sign of what would happen to Him...Matthew 12:40 and Luke 11:29...

That's pretty good Willis. I believe the type goes still deeper yet on the same 'rule of type' as Adam being a figure of Christ:

...the likeness of Adam`s transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come. But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift... Ro 5:14-15

For instance a couple:

Jonah attempted to shirk his call to duty
Christ was obedient even unto death

Jonah preached clearly
Christ taught in parables

Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah and was spared.
'That generation' did not repent at the preaching of Christ and was utterly destroyed.

...and there's so much more that could be mined from that story.

 

[Yeshua1]

So the Virgin Birth was not needed for Jesus to have a sinless nature at His birth?

that we all have the same nature of humanity as jesus had at birth?

 

[Winman]

So the Virgin Birth was not needed for Jesus to have a sinless nature at His birth?

that we all have the same nature of humanity as jesus had at birth?

Does the Bible say Jesus had to be born of a virgin to avoid having a sinful nature? Or does the Bible say Jesus was born of a virgin as a sign?

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Does this verse say anything about sin? Does it?

Jesus had human fathers just like we do through his mother Mary. The scripture says Jesus was MADE of the SEED of David according to the FLESH.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Do you understand this scripture? Jesus inherited part of his flesh from his grandfather David, just like you and I inherited part of our flesh from our grandfathers on our mother's side. Science has proved this years ago. You inherit one fourth of your DNA from your mother's father, that is a scientific fact.

Jesus inherited his flesh from David, and even going all the way back to Adam. So if a sin nature is inherited from our fathers, then Jesus would have been born with a sin nature.

Peter directly tells us Jesus came from David's "loins" according to the flesh.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

God promised David, that of the "fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne".

The belief that a sin nature is passed down by our fathers is nothing but silly superstition, completely refuted by MUCH scripture.

The Jews knew the Christ had to be a physical descendant of David, and the most common name they called Jesus was "son of David"

Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Jesus not only inherited flesh from David, but Abraham as well. Need I remind you that both David and Abraham were sinners?

The angel that spoke to Mary said David was Jesus's father.

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Instead of listening to and spreading the falsehoods of men, maybe you should read the scriptures.

 

[Yeshua1]

Does the Bible say Jesus had to be born of a virgin to avoid having a sinful nature? Or does the Bible say Jesus was born of a virgin as a sign?

All were found by God to be born in the likeness of Adam, as sinners, so jesus HAD to be born by conception of/by the Holy spirit to have Him in a sinless state!

IF he had been born a natural way, would he had still be qualified to be the Messiah?

Jesus was born in the likeness of us, NOT in the exact sameness of us!

 

[steaver]

I would tell you that I became a Calvinist after wrestling with the issue of God's sovereignty over a period of years. What was the catalyst of my change? The Word of God. I fought against Calvinism all the way. I did not go quietly.

What I find strange is how those who embrace Calvinism only do so with much wrestling and anguish. I have heard Calvinist call TULIP the Gospel, and I have heard TULIP called Divine Truth! And Jesus and the Apostles taught Calvinism! If TULIP is all of what it is said to be by those who embrace it, and TULIP itself teaches Irresistible Grace, the why must one believe in it "kicking and screaming"? I have heard it said, "no one comes to Christ kicking and screaming", well, why would they have to come to Calvinism that way?

 

[Reformed]

What I find strange is how those who embrace Calvinism only do so with much wrestling and anguish. I have heard Calvinist call TULIP the Gospel, and I have heard TULIP called Divine Truth! And Jesus and the Apostles taught Calvinism! If TULIP is all of what it is said to be by those who embrace it, and TULIP itself teaches Irresistible Grace, the why must one believe in it "kicking and screaming"? I have heard it said, "no one comes to Christ kicking and screaming", well, why would they have to come to Calvinism that way?

I was a Dispensationalists Dispensationalist. I attended every prophecy conference I could find. I attended an uber-dispensationalist bible college. They reason the change was hard for me was because it was more than just a change of conviction I was facing. I knew friends and fellows students would turn on me (and they did). I knew my church family would think I apostatized (and that wasn't far from the truth).

 

[convicted1]

What I find strange is how those who embrace Calvinism only do so with much wrestling and anguish. I have heard Calvinist call TULIP the Gospel, and I have heard TULIP called Divine Truth! And Jesus and the Apostles taught Calvinism! If TULIP is all of what it is said to be by those who embrace it, and TULIP itself teaches Irresistible Grace, the why must one believe in it "kicking and screaming"? I have heard it said, "no one comes to Christ kicking and screaming", well, why would they have to come to Calvinism that way?

I find this post rather insulting. The thing is this; change is never easy, breaking your tradition(s) isn't, either. I was raised that God loves all, calls all, Christ died for all, and that unless we submit to Him, He can't...not won't...can't...save us. Then to find it to be otherwise in revealed biblical truth, it's hard to leave that which you had be taught otherwise for years...

Change is never easy....

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

What I find strange is how those who embrace Calvinism only do so with much wrestling and anguish. I have heard Calvinist call TULIP the Gospel, and I have heard TULIP called Divine Truth! And Jesus and the Apostles taught Calvinism! If TULIP is all of what it is said to be by those who embrace it, and TULIP itself teaches Irresistible Grace, the why must one believe in it "kicking and screaming"? I have heard it said, "no one comes to Christ kicking and screaming", well, why would they have to come to Calvinism that way?

I wasn't brought to DoG kicking and screaming....rather through study and the HS revealing much, I began to understand what I once abhorred.

I found it to be an uncovering of the truth....quite revealing to my prior Catholic religious training...and very refreshing. And its still happening....especially when I interact with people so in the dark, so this wordly & so clueless. Then I say to God ....in all sincerity ...."Thank You ":godisgood:

 

[steaver]

I find this post rather insulting. The thing is this; change is never easy, breaking your tradition(s) isn't, either. I was raised that God loves all, calls all, Christ died for all, and that unless we submit to Him, He can't...not won't...can't...save us. Then to find it to be otherwise in revealed biblical truth, it's hard to leave that which you had be taught otherwise for years...

Change is never easy....

See I would think it would be quite easy to embrace Calvinism if it be so that Calvinism is as you all believe it is, i.e. The Gospel, Divine Truth, Taught by Jesus, Taught by the Apostles, Taught by the Holy Spirit.

With all of this going for it, why would any Christian believe otherwise and have any need to come kicking and screaming? It's just puzzling I guess. I personally preach against traditions not expressed in the bible all the time. And traditions which are expressed in the bible I always make sure to point out the difference between traditions and commandments.

 

[Winman]

See I would think it would be quite easy to embrace Calvinism if it be so that Calvinism is as you all believe it is, i.e. The Gospel, Divine Truth, Taught by Jesus, Taught by the Apostles, Taught by the Holy Spirit.

With all of this going for it, why would any Christian believe otherwise and have any need to come kicking and screaming? It's just puzzling I guess. I personally preach against traditions not expressed in the bible all the time. And traditions which are expressed in the bible I always make sure to point out the difference between traditions and commandments.

You are quite right, I have read many Calvinist testimonies where they said they found Calvinism revolting at first.

SNIP

 

[steaver]

You are quite right, I have read many Calvinist testimonies where they said they found Calvinism revolting at first.

It is very strange, reminds me of our soldiers who were brainwashed in Korea. They went away patriots who believed in freedom and democracy, they came back believing in communism and group thought. Baffling.

It's like there is a switch in the brain that alters their thought. And once you think that other way, very few ever recover from it.

I have a brother who struggled against Millennial Exclusion which his pastor was trying to convince him of for years was Truth. One day he finally believed it, and then he began trying to convince me of it. I said to him, why do you now believe this when you fought against it for so long? He said, "it was like a light went off and I finally understood it". In reality, I believe he really wanted to believe it because he was good friends with his pastor and really looked up to his pastor's "wisdom" in expounding the scriptures, but the Holy Spirit resisted in him until he was eventually turned over to submit himself to his pastor. To this day, he practically worships the man.

 

[Winman]

I have a brother who struggled against Millennial Exclusion which his pastor was trying to convince him of for years was Truth. One day he finally believed it, and then he began trying to convince me of it. I said to him, why do you now believe this when you fought against it for so long? He said, "it was like a light went off and I finally understood it". In reality, I believe he really wanted to believe it because he was good friends with his pastor and really looked up to his pastor's "wisdom" in expounding the scriptures, but the Holy Spirit resisted in him until he was eventually turned over to submit himself to his pastor. To this day, he practically worships the man.

Well, I find it completely baffling. I have read of people who said they were revolted by Calvinism when they first heard it, it went against everything they had ever believed about God. And then suddenly one day they believe it. These folks never seem to come out of it.

What is equally fascinating and baffling is that people who adopted Calvinism from the start and were never Arminians or non-Cals seem to be the ones who come out of Calvinism.

Here is a page with numerous ex-Calvinists that explain why they came out of Calvinism.

http://arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/x-calvinist-corner/

Now of course, the Calvinists could probably show testimonies of ex-Arminians. That is not the point, I show this just because some of the stories are fascinating.

 

[Reformed]

With all of this going for it, why would any Christian believe otherwise and have any need to come kicking and screaming? It's just puzzling I guess. I personally preach against traditions not expressed in the bible all the time. And traditions which are expressed in the bible I always make sure to point out the difference between traditions and commandments.

Did you even read my response?

 

[steaver]

Did you even read my response?

Yes, I read it. What's up? OK, you did not come kicking and screaming, you studied and decided after much study. But why would it matter what your friends thought? Should that influence your beliefs? You kinda make my point really. When a person comes to Christ, according to Calvinist, it is not kicking and screaming, in other words, they hear the Gospel and believe it because the Holy Spirit makes them believe it, they have no choice but to love it! Why is it not the same for Calvinism, since you consider it to be Divine Truth, The Gospel, Taught of the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ and all the Apostles?

 

[Winman]

Yes, I read it. What's up? OK, you did not come kicking and screaming, you studied and decided after much study. But why would it matter what your friends thought? Should that influence your beliefs? You kinda make my point really. When a person comes to Christ, according to Calvinist, it is not kicking and screaming, in other words, they hear the Gospel and believe it because the Holy Spirit makes them believe it, they have no choice but to love it! Why is it not the same for Calvinism, since you consider it to be Divine Truth, The Gospel, Taught of the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ and all the Apostles?

What I find amusing about Calvinism is their extreme emphasis on Total Inability. I mean, according to Calvinists, before you are regenerated you are an absolute enemy of God, you are not interested in the gospel, and you could not possibly understand it if you were willing to listen to it, but you are not willing.

Well, how does a Calvinist explain these huge revivals where tens of thousands of people come to hear the gospel?



See, it just doesn't match up.

And how did these Calvinists hear the gospel anyway? Did someone pin them down while somebody preached the gospel to them so they couldn't get away?

And then imagine if you truly hated God and everything about him the way Calvinism says we all did. Then a moment later you love God. Now you suddenly understand the gospel, and now you suddenly believe it.

That would be quite an experience. I have never heard ANYONE give a testimony like this.

I didn't hate God when I got saved. I didn't know the gospel, but I knew Jesus was God's Son and I knew he was good and loved me. No one had to drag me to church. And I believed the gospel as soon as I heard it.

Calvinism simply doesn't reflect reality. If Calvinism were true, Billy Graham would never have drawn a stadium full of folks who came, KNOWING they would hear the gospel. In fact, that is WHY they came.

 

[Reformed]

Yes, I read it. What's up? OK, you did not come kicking and screaming, you studied and decided after much study. But why would it matter what your friends thought? Should that influence your beliefs? You kinda make my point really. When a person comes to Christ, according to Calvinist, it is not kicking and screaming, in other words, they hear the Gospel and believe it because the Holy Spirit makes them believe it, they have no choice but to love it! Why is it not the same for Calvinism, since you consider it to be Divine Truth, The Gospel, Taught of the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ and all the Apostles?

You are not getting it. Peer pressure is not to be minimized. Who truly wants people to dislike them or to treat them differently because of their beliefs? I valued my friends. I was afraid. That did not mean I was going to suppress my convictions. The theological change I went through could not be denied. But I am also an emotional human being. You cannot ignore that. It is park of the human make-up.

 

[steaver]

You are not getting it. Peer pressure is not to be minimized. Who truly wants people to dislike them or to treat them differently because of their beliefs? I valued my friends. I was afraid. That did not mean I was going to suppress my convictions. The theological change I went through could not be denied. But I am also an emotional human being. You cannot ignore that. It is park of the human make-up.

I believe I get it perfectly, and I do so because I have been here listening to Calvinist express to me what TULIP declares. If it is as Calvinist say it is, that one hates God, hates Jesus, hates the Gospel until God makes them believe it and love it, then what does human emotions have to do with it?

Now, if you truly have a decision to make, and you must count the cost, then you would have an argument for struggling with Calvinism, but then that would not coincide with Calvinism theology, for in Calvinism one does not believe "kicking and screaming" ,or even struggling between the Gospel and emotions.

 

[steaver]

What I find amusing about Calvinism is their extreme emphasis on Total Inability. I mean, according to Calvinists, before you are regenerated you are an absolute enemy of God, you are not interested in the gospel, and you could not possibly understand it if you were willing to listen to it, but you are not willing.

Well, how does a Calvinist explain these huge revivals where tens of thousands of people come to hear the gospel?



See, it just doesn't match up.

And how did these Calvinists hear the gospel anyway? Did someone pin them down while somebody preached the gospel to them so they couldn't get away?

And then imagine if you truly hated God and everything about him the way Calvinism says we all did. Then a moment later you love God. Now you suddenly understand the gospel, and now you suddenly believe it.

That would be quite an experience. I have never heard ANYONE give a testimony like this.

I didn't hate God when I got saved. I didn't know the gospel, but I knew Jesus was God's Son and I knew he was good and loved me. No one had to drag me to church. And I believed the gospel as soon as I heard it.

Calvinism simply doesn't reflect reality. If Calvinism were true, Billy Graham would never have drawn a stadium full of folks who came, KNOWING they would hear the gospel. In fact, that is WHY they came.

:thumbs: I was saved after hearing Billy at age ten. I agreed with what he preached that I was a sinner and I wanted to go to heaven with Jesus. Billy said we are to pray and ask, so I did later that night before bed. Felt the Spirit lead me ever since, even though I rebelled at times against Him and went un-disciple, un-churched for years.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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