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Question for Calvinists

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steaver

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Oh my brother. I appreciate all your time on whether or not man has freewill after the fall, but this wasn't the issue. I don't know how many times and how many different ways to say it :tonofbricks:

The issue was............

....well, I already said it probably six times. If we cannot stay on the issue then there will be no progress made by me restating it here again. Blessings!
 

Reformed

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Oh my brother. I appreciate all your time on whether or not man has freewill after the fall, but this wasn't the issue. I don't know how many times and how many different ways to say it :tonofbricks:

The issue was............

....well, I already said it probably six times. If we cannot stay on the issue then there will be no progress made by me restating it here again. Blessings!

I addressed the "whether free will imperils God's sovereignty issue". In order to address your question free will has to be defined, because the both of us mean different things wen we use the term. There is nothing else if my attempt is not being received. I guess we'll have to call it a day.
 
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Yeshua1

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Greetings brother! You may have missed the argument at hand. Arch is laying charge that if a person believes God is giving man a freewill choice, as Adam had before the fall, then that person is declaring God turning over His sovereignty or limiting it. So I point to Adam before the fall, when God gave Adam this freewill choice, did this limit God or take away God's sovereignty?? Arch refuses to acknowledge the double standard he is adhering to.

God had decreed that the fall would mean that ALL physically born afterwards would be found by Him to be "In Adam", and would have to take being spiirutally dead in their sins, to have been born in a sinners state...

God NEVER could offer to any person what he did to adam, as when Adam sinned and chose to do evil, he stood for all to be born after him...

ALL were corrupted with a fallen sinner syaye, so true free will choice no longer even an option at that time...
 

Yeshua1

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Oh my brother. I appreciate all your time on whether or not man has freewill after the fall, but this wasn't the issue. I don't know how many times and how many different ways to say it :tonofbricks:

The issue was............

....well, I already said it probably six times. If we cannot stay on the issue then there will be no progress made by me restating it here again. Blessings!

Does God HAVE to save any sinner?

Are we all due to have that be granted by him towards us, or can it be that he will have the freedom to chose as he wills, not as we will?
 

Winman

Active Member
Steaver, I am not trying to be unkind, but your argument is not logical. It is progressive, but not logical. You are glossing over total depravity and total inability. If you truly understand Calvinism you know we believe the Bible clearly teaches both. The product of that belief is that God has not endued man with the same free will that Adam possessed pre-fall. All of this is rooted in God's sovereignty, which cannot be divorced from the debate.

His argument is absolutely logical. If Adam's freewill before the fall did not usurp God's sovereignty, then neither would freewill for men after the fall.

You Calvinists constantly argue that man making a choice concerning life/death usurps God's sovereignty, but you absolutely contradict yourselves when it comes to Adam before the fall.

Denying this does not make it go away.
 

Winman

Active Member
This I get and agree upon...THIS IS NOT THE ISSUE! :tongue3: I don't understand what you are not getting this.

This is about Calvinist declaring man having freewill would imperil God's sovereignty post-fall but NOT imperil God's sovereignty pre-fall. I don't know how to make it any clearer than this.
:praying:

He gets it, and he's painted himself into a corner and he knows it. You are absolutely correct, if Adam's freewill before the fall did not usurp God's sovereignty, then neither would man's freewill usurp God's sovereignty after the fall.

He gets it.
 

Winman

Active Member
Oh my brother. I appreciate all your time on whether or not man has freewill after the fall, but this wasn't the issue. I don't know how many times and how many different ways to say it :tonofbricks:

The issue was............

....well, I already said it probably six times. If we cannot stay on the issue then there will be no progress made by me restating it here again. Blessings!

You are wasting your time Steaver. He gets it, he knows exactly what you are saying, and he knows you are correct too. The Calvinist argument that freewill usurps God's sovereignty is BOGUS and he knows it. Calvinists admit Adam had freewill before the fall. If freewill usurps God's sovereignty, then God would not have been sovereign when Adam had freewill before the fall.

Your argument is solid and valid, and makes perfect logical sense.

And he knows it.

But don't hold your breath.
 

Yeshua1

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His argument is absolutely logical. If Adam's freewill before the fall did not usurp God's sovereignty, then neither would freewill for men after the fall.

You Calvinists constantly argue that man making a choice concerning life/death usurps God's sovereignty, but you absolutely contradict yourselves when it comes to Adam before the fall.

Denying this does not make it go away.

Adam xhose for all of us in his dedcision though, and we ALL have been found guilty, and are sinners, and the fall removed God being able to save any by just "their free will!"
 

Winman

Active Member
Adam xhose for all of us in his dedcision though, and we ALL have been found guilty, and are sinners, and the fall removed God being able to save any by just "their free will!"

Do you even know what you are talking about?
 

Rippon

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Adam xhose for all of us in his dedcision though, and we ALL have been found guilty, and are sinners, and the fall removed God being able to save any by just "their free will!"

Slow down boy. With your very high post count --can't you take a little extra time to proof your posts before making a mad dash to make a point only you appreciate?
 
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Iconoclast

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Slow down boy. With your very high post count --can't you take a little extra time to proof your posts before making a mad dash to make a point only you appreciate?

What....you do not understand this;
spiirutally syaye xhose dedcision Eschatrology
imminemt reuire thryu yalking yje suew:confused::rolleyes::(:confused:
 

evangelist6589

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Do you even know what you are talking about?


Do you? You do not believe in original sin but continue to promote semi-pelegainism in your self deceived lie that you believe that man lacks a sin nature and even babes from the womb lack such a nature. The bible is quite clear on this that all mankind is born into sin and are completely totally depraved and cannot choose God unless God first draws him John 6:44.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

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Do you? You do not believe in original sin but continue to promote semi-pelegainism in your self deceived lie that you believe that man lacks a sin nature and even babes from the womb lack such a nature. The bible is quite clear on this that all mankind is born into sin and are completely totally depraved and cannot choose God unless God first draws him John 6:44.

Yes...that has been his position from the onset. And that position would completely demolish Doctrines of Grace theology.
 

Winman

Active Member
Yes...that has been his position from the onset. And that position would completely demolish Doctrines of Grace theology.

It sure would, wouldn't it? And that is the reason Calvinists NEED Original Sin to be true, not because they can prove it from scripture (they can't), but because it would prove Reformed doctrine to be total falsehood.

John does not understand stuff like that, but you do. :thumbs:
 

evangelist6589

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It sure would, wouldn't it? And that is the reason Calvinists NEED Original Sin to be true, not because they can prove it from scripture (they can't), but because it would prove Reformed doctrine to be total falsehood.



John does not understand stuff like that, but you do. :thumbs:


Excuse me??????? Do you understand what a rabbit is? Go chase one.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Slow down boy. With your very high post count --can't you take a little extra time to proof your posts before making a mad dash to make a point only you appreciate?

The curse of fat fingers and a small texting pad on smart phone!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
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It sure would, wouldn't it? And that is the reason Calvinists NEED Original Sin to be true, not because they can prove it from scripture (they can't), but because it would prove Reformed doctrine to be total falsehood.

John does not understand stuff like that, but you do. :thumbs:

Are we all born then with same nature as jesus had, an uncorrupted sinless state?
 
Brother John, I found this and think it might help you as you study this out further:


The focus of Jonah, however, is on the prophet and his reactions to these situations. We see his emotions: denial, avoidance, dismay, resignation, fear, despair, humility, boldness, disbelief, anger, hopelessness, and perplexity. He is overwhelmed by what God wants him to do, uncertain about how it will affect him, driven relentlessly by God's will, and at a total loss about what it all means! Through his experiences, Jonah comes to realize, "How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!" (Romans 11:33). The reader leaves him as he sits outside Nineveh, bewildered and contemplating his incomprehensible God.

Jonah provides one of the most significant and recognizable Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament. Jesus Himself refers to it in Matthew 12:40: "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." It is the only sign Jesus gave to prove that He was the Christ, a sign that was completely out of His ability to control since He would be dead. The Father Himself would have to intervene to raise His Son from the dead. Thus, Jesus puts His stamp of approval on this often-mocked book.


Richard T. Ritenbaugh
Meet the Minor Prophets (Part Two)


I hope this helps.

http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/CGG/ID/7718/Jonah.htm
 
Plus, Brother John, you can see Jonah used as an OT picture of Christ to come later on...


-- He was in the whale's belly 3 days and nights....
-- Jesus was in the tomb for 3 days and nights...
-- Jonah fell asleep in the bottom of the ship...
-- Jesus fell asleep in the bottom of the ship...
-- Jonah had some people wake him afraid they would perish...
-- Jesus had some people wake Him afraid they would perish...
-- Jonah cried out, feeling like he was left alone...
-- Jesus cried out, feeling like He was left alone...


Now, Jonah did things that Jesus would have never did, but you can see Jonah as an OT picture of Christ. Jesus even referenced Jonah's whale experience as a sign of what would happen to Him...Matthew 12:40 and Luke 11:29...
 
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