God ordained that all men would fall according to Calvinism, and being in a fallen state unable to believe. The constitution of the non-elect was determined before they were born, and they cannot possibly act otherwise.
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Question for Calvinists
- Thread starter Skandelon
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God ordained that all men would fall according to Calvinism, and being in a fallen state unable to believe. The constitution of the non-elect was determined before they were born, and they cannot possibly act otherwise.
But not even condemned for their sin, for they are condemned before they are ever born.
Yes, they were condemned before they sinned, so the condemnation is the cause, sin the effect.
Yes, according to way Calvinists interpret Romans 9:11-13, God hated Esau before he was ever born and done any evil.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
According to Calvinism's interpretation of Romans 9:11-13 God hated Esau before he was born and had done any evil.
Never had a chance.
convicted1
Guest
You are referring to 1 John 2:2?
1 John 2:2 (YLT)
and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,
Now, to the novice reader, this appears to mean that Christ took everybody's sins to the cross, and atoned for everyone who ever lived. Even those who died in the mid-centuries, those who never heard the name of Jesus, let alone knew about Him. These who died before missionairies could get to them. It appears that He atoned for them, too.
"NOT SO FAST MY FRIEND", to borrow that line from Lee Corso. Let's take a look at the word 'propiatiation'. I am no Greek scholar, so all I have to go by is Strong's, and I know how some feel about using it.
hilasmos G2434
I.
an appeasing, propitiating
II.
the means of appeasing, a propitiation
IOW, God's wrath is appeased, is satisified, by Christ's propitiating for the lost. So, if Chris did, in fact, propitiate everybody's sins, appeased God's wrath for all sinners, paid their sin debt in full, then none will die and be eternally lost. Their debt is paid, there is no wrath for God to pour out, beacuse God was completely satisified with the work His Son did. That's why a universal atonement leads smack into universalism....
It cannot lead into an "all will be saved" position because Jesus Christ declared all sin with an exception of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall be forgiven the elect? No, shall be forgiven men. Can an elect commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? Of course not, this is why blasphemy against the Holy Spirit boils down to rejecting the Spirit's call to believe on Jesus Christ.
We need not be Greek scholars to understand the plain English translation given to us by God. Don't you see how Calvinism forces you to dismiss the most simple and easily understood readings found in the Scriptures? Once you buy into it, it becomes hook, line and sinker!
convicted1
Guest
Your problem is your sacred cow, free will, trumps God in your schema. He "tries" to save people, but until they give in, He's in a "wait and see". He can't do anything until you exercise your free will. You make God impotent, and not omnipotent....
Yes, God is Love, and God does all He can to save the freewill beings He created. God in His wisdom understands that love coerced is no love at all., even we human beings understand such a simple concept. God seeks those who freely desire to love Him. If you think this makes God impotent you will have to take it up with Him. Scripture is clear, God does all for His vineyard short of creating puppets on a string. If He wanted puppets on a string He could have avoided all this drama from the beginning and simply never have given Adam a choice. Then Jesus Christ would not have had to been beaten to a pulp and killed.
Yes, if God in his sovereignty has decided to save those who choose to believe on Jesus, and has decided to damn those who refuse to believe on Jesus, why can't God do that? In fact, how are you going to stop him?
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Jesus said whoever believes the gospel shall be saved, whoever does not believe the gospel shall be damned.
Seems pretty simple and straightforward to me.
This is what God has decided, live with it.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
This Calvin thing sure does paint God as an uncaring, unloving God that will destroy many of His creation without a chance. It puts a person in a paradox, "If I witness to so and so, there is a chance that they are damned from before they were born. So I might be going against God's will?" How do I know I'm elect? How do I know I'm damned?
It was because they refused to believe. It is by faith that we have access into this grace
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
I have given the analogy of buying Super Bowl tickets for every member of BB, and then posting a thread promising to send a pair of free tickets to anyone who PMs me their mailing address.
If you believe my promise and send me your address you get a pair of free tickets as promised.
If you do not believe, or simply do not care and do not PM me your address you do not get a pair of free tickets.
Does the fact that you did not believe me mean that I did not purchase tickets for you? NO.
The scriptures say eternal life is a free gift of Jesus Christ, but you have to trust him to receive it. No faith, no grace.
Salvation is ALL of God! God has done everything and the offer stands as promised from the beginning......BELIEVE!!!! :thumbsup:
No, Calvinists believe it is God's will you preach to every person. Calvinists believe it is God's "revealed will" that everybody should be saved, but it is God's "secret will" that many should perish.
Calvinists believe God is the potter, we are the clay. He can do whatever he likes with his clay. If he wants to make defective pottery for the purpose of destroying it, that is his right.
Now, no potter in his right mind intentionally makes defective pottery for the purpose of destroying it, but that is what Calvinists believe about God.
Whatever, you have no right to question God.
No wonder you and me are not on the same page.
Correct, he does not believe that God chose to "pass by" most of mankind to be condemned for their sin to the praise of his glorious justice as you do.
He does not believe God hated Esau and all other non-elect persons before they were born and had done any evil as you do.
Tell me John, why did God hate Esau before he was born?
Four pages and counting and not one Calvinist as agreed that the above correctly and accurately presents Calvinism in a nutshell.
They like to post, "that is not right" and "I do not believe that" when they say what they claim not to believe, but frequently they are running from Calvinism and posting other than the published doctrines found on Reformed websites.
So they take issue and nit pick phrases like "John Calvin's Doctrines of Grace" because John Calvin did not write the doctrines currently presented as the doctrines of grace. Thus a nitpick, and an evasion of saying where they agree and where they disagree.
Calvinism can be summarized as follows, "you were saved or damned from all eternity, for all eternity, and nothing you do will alter that outcome for yourself or your loved ones."
The problem with the DOG is not that it is harsh, robbing life of meaning and purpose, but that it is totally unbiblical, a mistaken doctrine of men.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
You are right John.
Watching you bark at people on youtube and claim it is evangelism....not on the same page
Complaining about your wife and dragging her through the public mud....not on the same page
Using deception to bring the lost to Christ....not on the same page
Calling your brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ false converts....not on the same page
Developing an attack on a preacher of a local church....not on the same page
Swooning over Ray Comfort like a young boy with a new GI JOE.....not on the same page
But I love you John. Even though I think you have some whacked out ideas(and I have mine) on how this thing rolls, you are a brother in Christ. I'm a toe and you're an ear or something.
:thumbsup: Exactly. Yet some argue that "whole world" must mean the "elect of the whole world" when "all of Israel" actually means "all of Israel." The argument that if it means literally "the whole world" then all would be saved confuses propitiation with expiation...but whatever...it wasn't your argument anyway.
John is definitely NOT an ear. I marvel at his heart for Christ...in many ways he serves as an example to us all...but he is certainly NOT an ear. Maybe a mouth.
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