Question for covenantalist regarding the new covenant.

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Nothing in the passage says it is figurative.

Nothing In isa 11 says it is descriptive of a thousand year period before the eternal state.
You deny the use of figurative language here....
with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.???

It is just your denial of Scripture. It means what it means.

I do not deny any scripture.It is figurative language that has a literal meaning, just like when Hebrews says the word of God is a two edged sword.

It is written that way to tell us that some day in the future the earth will return to its pre-Adamic state, that is, before Adam fell. When Christ comes he will lift the curse. It is a literal description of the earth without the curse.

The renewed earth will no longer be under the curse in the eternal state:thumbsup:

I didn't quote Paul. I quoted Isaiah.

yes you quoted Isaiah....and so did Paul....Paul described the gospel age as fulfilling Isaiah 11.....confirming the promises made to the Jewish fathers...the Covenant promise.....he quotes Isa 11 as being fulfilled in the gospel.

But very obviously if this position is written in premill works then it ought to be taken seriously. You know it is not just "my" position.

yes DHK...i know it is taught.....I used to teach it early on as I was taught it alone was the truth.

These things have not happened yet. They mean something.

Paul quotes Isa 11 as a reality in his day.

Words have meanings. Explain the verses Icon.
Allegory or not, they still have meaning. Explain the verses, and stop beating around the bush!!!!!

I offered an explanation that you do not agree with.I offered you this-

notice in verse 1 of isa11...it mentions a rod, a stem ,and a branch and roots,yet none of that language is speaking of a literal plant, or tree, but a person.
vs 4 speaks of the earth being smitten...with the rod of His mouth and the breath of His lips.....looks like it might be descriptive language to describe literal events...Do you agree????

You do not take this literally as written.....he is Clothed with righteousness and faithfulness.....figurative descriptive language of the characteristics of His reign.....

So when the peaceful characteristic of the kingdom is described in figurative language...you determine that this figurative language must be literally fulfilled in a different kingdom than the one Paul has been describing????
the descriptive language is speaking about the curse being reversed in the Kingdom....man is at peace with God.....the language of the curse being removed is to indicate it...The kingdom is still growing and progressing until the last day.Nothing in Isaiah 11...says this is in a future Kingdom..it is speaking of what is taking place in the kingdom now using figurative descriptive language.
look at vs 14-
14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west;

look in 15-
15 And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea;

DHK....what is the tongue of the egyptian sea??? Is this something in the millenium in the future...literally, or is this language figurative???
Paul says...quoting from isa.....In that day the gentiles seek him...that day has been since the apostolic days DHK....gentiles included in the promises.



here is from a commentary showing what i have already indicated,it is supportive of what i offered as you can offer from premill writers what they say.

Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse - This is one of the greatest Messianic prophecies. The stem, stock or stump of Jesse is a metaphor for the remnant of Jesse's family (and the line of David) who were genuine believers in the Messiah (Note: Salvation in the OT was always by grace through faith just as in the NT - cp Ge 15:6 with Ro 4:3, Ro 4:16) and from whom would arise a Shoot or a Rod (KJV), Who in context is a metaphorical description of the Messiah, also described as the Branch. and later as the root of Jesse (Isaiah 11:10).

Isaiah continues the arbor (tree) imagery as he turns from the description of one felled tree (Assyrian) to another felled tree (Judah). The first tree fell with finality, whereas the second tree has signs of life in the root. Whereas the tree of Assyria was lopped off and would never grow again, God promised Judah that even though she would be punished (eventually with exile into Babylon in 586BC), "regrowth" of the nation would occur because God had assured there would be a believing remnant.

Isaiah had previously alluded to the believing remnant, although not yet clearly associating it with the Messiah until here in Isaiah 11:1. In the opening chapter Isaiah wrote that...

Unless the LORD of hosts had left us (Isaiah personalizes this passage, so "us" = Jews) a few survivors (the believing remnant which Paul quotes in Ro 9:29-note to explain that God still had a plan for the Jews, but ultimately it would only be those Jews who believed in Messiah, cp Ro 11:25, 26, 27-note), we would be like Sodom, we would be like Gomorrah. (Isaiah 1:9)

Comment: The point in using the historical analogy (simile) of Sodom and Gomorrah which were completely and utterly annihilated is to emphasize that there would not have been one believer in Israel had not God Himself intervened to preserve a holy seed (see Isa 6:13 below), a believing remnant. (See also Tony Garland's discussion A Remnant Will be Saved)

Isaiah next alluded to the believing remnant in Isaiah 6 writing...

Yet there will be a tenth portion in it (Again a manifestation of the mercy of the LORD to not give even the remnant what they deserved), and it will again be subject to burning, like a terebinth or an oak whose stump remains when it is felled. The holy seed is its stump. (Isaiah 6:13).

Comment: The tenth portion is a picture of the believing remnant which is further described as the holy seed, which is pictured as a stump. In this verse God says that Judah will not be completely destroyed. In His great faithfulness to His covenant promises to Abraham and to David (For more on the Davidic Covenant, see 2Sa 7:8-17, 19; 23:5; 1Ki 11:36; 15:4; 2Ki 8:19; 1Chr 17:9-16, 27; 22:10; 2Chr 6:15-17; 7:18; 13:5; 21:7; Ps 2:6-8; 89:3, 4; Ps 89:19-51; 132:10, 11, 12; Isa 9:7; 11:1; 37:35; 55:3; Jer 22:30; 23:5, 6; 30:9; 33:14-17, 19-26; 36:30; Ezek 37:24-25; Hos. 3:4-5; Amos 9:11, 12; Luke 1:32, 33, 69, 70; Acts 2:29-32; 13:22-23, 32-37; 15:16-17; Ro 9:4) that there would be a seed from whom would come the Messiah, God promises that just as a tree may sprout again from a stump, so there will be a believing remnant of the nation who will survive and preserve the seed or lineage of the Messiah.

To reiterate, though most of God's people would reject God, the tenth, the stump, the holy seed would be a remnant in Israel who would hear and believe God's promise of a Messiah (first prophesied in Genesis 3:15) Who would be their Redeemer (cp Isa 54:8, 59:20 quoted in Ro 11:26-note). In other words just as a tree may sprout again from a stump, so there would be a faithful remnant of Judah who would survive. In Isaiah 6:13, the holy (set apart by God and for God) seed refers specifically to the believing remnant of the tribe of Judah of the family of Jesse from whom the seed of the Messiah would come just as Paul explained in Galatians.

Now the promises were spoken to Abraham (the believer Gal 3:9) and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. (Gal 3:16, cp Ge 13:16, 15:5, 22:17 where "descendents" = seed [Hebrew = masculine, singular in all the preceding passages]).

For He (Messiah) grew up before Him (God the Father) like a tender shoot, and like a root out of parched ground. He has no stately form or majesty that we should look upon Him, (Isaiah 53:2).

Then it will come about in that day that the nations will resort to the root of Jesse (Messiah), Who will stand as a signal for the peoples and His resting place will be glorious. (Isaiah 11:10)

I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star. (Rev 22:16-note)

looks biblical to me DHK....

Now can you show where any writer says Isa 11.....is descriptive of a "future 1000 yr.millenial Kingdom"....who says that isa 11 describes that?

i still am waiting for you explanation of theEx4;22 passage, with hosea 11:1 quoted in Mt 2;15 ....

additional reading on the figurative language;

http://kloposmasm.com/tag/isaiah-11/

http://paradiseregained.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/isaiah-111-9-the-branch-of-jesse/

 

[DHK]

You still have not properly addressed the verses I have given to you.
I want your explanation before we go on. Words have meaning Icon. You have no explanation except the vain excuse "they describe peace."
You have to do better than that.
Go through the Scriptures verse by verse, without any links, and tell me what they mean.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

Ezekiel 11:17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

Admit it. Nothing like this has happened, has it?

Here is another one for you to explain:
Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
--When has all flesh, all the nations of the world come to worship the Lord?

What happened on the Day of Pentecost? Was the entirety of the prophecy fulfilled?
Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Look especially at verse 17:
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Was God's Spirit poured out on ALL flesh? Why was only 3,000 out of approximately 100,000 saved that day? What happened to the 97,000? Was not God's Spirit poured out upon them also, or did God lie? The prophecy has not been fulfilled yet. It was a partial fulfillment.

 

[Iconoclast]

You still have not properly addressed the verses I have given to you.
I want your explanation before we go on. Words have meaning Icon. You have no explanation except the vain excuse "they describe peace."
You have to do better than that.
Go through the Scriptures verse by verse, without any links, and tell me what they mean.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

Ezekiel 11:17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

Admit it. Nothing like this has happened, has it?

Here is another one for you to explain:
Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
--When has all flesh, all the nations of the world come to worship the Lord?

What happened on the Day of Pentecost? Was the entirety of the prophecy fulfilled?
Acts 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Look especially at verse 17:
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Was God's Spirit poured out on ALL flesh? Why was only 3,000 out of approximately 100,000 saved that day? What happened to the 97,000? Was not God's Spirit poured out upon them also, or did God lie? The prophecy has not been fulfilled yet. It was a partial fulfillment.

Wrong again DHK.....It was fulfilled not in part but fully as peter said this is that ...that was spoken by Joel.

Post 101 answered the first part of the question....it is you who are evading the questions...i asked you about Ex 4:22,23.....the use of the term "son", firstborn son...in reference to the Covenant Son....

You ran from that one....

I asked you to apply your own standard to the term "millenial Kingdom", you ran to wikipedia on that one....

I am willing to accept your use of that term as I know what theological teaching you allude to,although the term is not found in the bible.


You failed to respond to my questions on the Covenant...saying they are only for Israel[ot Israe]l is clearly a denial of eph 2;11-22.

Another mistake you make several times is you are stumbled by the meaning and usage of the term....all flesh.....as you seem to think that every person alive has to be in view...when the context offers no such thing.

Here is another one for you to explain:
Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
--When has all flesh, all the nations of the world come to worship the Lord?

Isa 65and 66 look forward to the kingdom being established at Jesus first coming, and again figurative language is employed to indicate gentile entrance into the kingdom as it goes worldwide.

Since the cross ...we no longer observe new moons...DHK....and yet the sabbath is mentioned...how about that?
All flesh is simply all the nations where the gospel is victorious.

 

[DHK]

Wrong again DHK.....It was fulfilled not in part but fully as peter said this is that ...that was spoken by Joel.

Post 101 answered the first part of the question....it is you who are evading the questions...i asked you about Ex 4:22,23.....the use of the term "son", firstborn son...in reference to the Covenant Son....

You ran from that one....

I asked you to apply your own standard to the term "millenial Kingdom", you ran to wikipedia on that one....

I am willing to accept your use of that term as I know what theological teaching you allude to,although the term is not found in the bible.


You failed to respond to my questions on the Covenant...saying they are only for Israel[ot Israe]l is clearly a denial of eph 2;11-22.

Another mistake you make several times is you are stumbled by the meaning and usage of the term....all flesh.....as you seem to think that every person alive has to be in view...when the context offers no such thing.




Isa 65and 66 look forward to the kingdom being established at Jesus first coming, and again figurative language is employed to indicate gentile entrance into the kingdom as it goes worldwide.

Since the cross ...we no longer observe new moons...DHK....and yet the sabbath is mentioned...how about that?
All flesh is simply all the nations where the gospel is victorious.

I see I have you cornered Icon.
You refuse to give any explanation whatsoever of Isaiah 11:6,8.
Rather you just jump from other passages: from passage to passage via J.W. methodology. I have news for you. I am not going there. I am not answering your other questions until you give a full and complete answer of these verses along with Isa.66:23 and Ez.11:17.
Go to these passages first and explain them.

 

[Iconoclast]

I see I have you cornered Icon.
You refuse to give any explanation whatsoever of Isaiah 11:6,8.
Rather you just jump from other passages: from passage to passage via J.W. methodology. I have news for you. I am not going there. I am not answering your other questions until you give a full and complete answer of these verses along with Isa.66:23 and Ez.11:17.
Go to these passages first and explain them.

Nice try DHK.I know you cannot answer the questions as i know your theology has no place for it...Post 101 answered but you do not like it.
You are looking for an excuse to bail -out...i understand:thumbs::wavey:

I answered you in post 56 and asked you to explain ex4:22....way before Isa 11 was mentioned....you denied this verse...in post 64;

Quote:
How is a nation called a son?
He isn't!!!!
Quote:
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

This is a metaphor, a figure of speech. A nation is not a person. There are many metaphors in the Bible. Jesus is a rock. I can break rocks. Can I bread Jesus? No. It is a metaphor. Jesus said "I am the door." Do you knock on him? No. It is a metaphor.
Quote:
All believers are found IN the TRUE Covenant Son
Vain philosophy. No scriptural proof.

You never said what any of this ,means....now you want me to answer for the fourth time....haha..

You had said in one of your posts....a wolf means a wolf,and a sheep means a sheep as if everything else could be figurative, but these could not???

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Do you think wolves means wolves here? I do think the animals in Isa 11 do refer to animals...as in the curse being lifted.

Interestingly i did hear David Jeremiah also deny that God has included gentiles in the Covenant....it was tragic.....The new Covenant is not for Christians he said.....Horrible.

 

[DHK]

Nice try DHK.I know you cannot answer the questions as i know your theology has no place for it...Post 101 answered but you do not like it.
You are looking for an excuse to bail -out...i understand:thumbs::wavey:

I can answer your questions Icon. I don't like your method of jumping around like a J.W. does. That is why I have given you one passage to explain, and have not backed off from it. After that passage we can go on to another, all right?
Furthermore, I have answered some of your other questions. You just didn't like the answer I gave you.

I answered you in post 56 and asked you to explain ex4:22....way before Isa 11 was mentioned....you denied this verse...in post 64;

Perhaps the answer I gave wasn't the one you wanted.

You never said what any of this ,means....now you want me to answer for the fourth time....haha..

You have never answered for the first time--not once.

You had said in one of your posts....a wolf means a wolf,and a sheep means a sheep as if everything else could be figurative, but these could not???

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

Do you think wolves means wolves here? I do think the animals in Isa 11 do refer to animals...as in the curse being lifted.

Paul defined the metaphor for the Ephesian elders, so that they knew what he was speaking about. He didn't even use allegory. It was an obvious metaphor. There was no dispute or controversy over what Paul said.

Put you can't do that in Isaiah 11. If it is a metaphor, then what is the metaphor? Be specific. How does a child play with the hole of an asp? (cobra's hole or home).
Isaiah 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isaiah 11:8 The nursing child will play near a cobra's hole, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. (WEB)
--Or how does the small child play in a viper's den?
--I have seen cobra's in the nation I have worked in. They are not friendly creatures. People die when attacked by them.

Interestingly i did hear David Jeremiah also deny that God has included gentiles in the Covenant....it was tragic.....The new Covenant is not for Christians he said.....Horrible.

I said I wouldn't get into that until my questions about Isaiah 11 were answered, except to reiterate this one statement. I believe what the Bible states, and states adamantly. "The covenants were given to Israel." You apparently don't believe the Bible when it says that. I can pray as the Bible teaches us to pray "Lord help his unbelief."

 

[Yeshua1]

I can answer your questions Icon. I don't like your method of jumping around like a J.W. does. That is why I have given you one passage to explain, and have not backed off from it. After that passage we can go on to another, all right?
Furthermore, I have answered some of your other questions. You just didn't like the answer I gave you.
Perhaps the answer I gave wasn't the one you wanted.
You have never answered for the first time--not once.
Paul defined the metaphor for the Ephesian elders, so that they knew what he was speaking about. He didn't even use allegory. It was an obvious metaphor. There was no dispute or controversy over what Paul said.

Put you can't do that in Isaiah 11. If it is a metaphor, then what is the metaphor? Be specific. How does a child play with the hole of an asp? (cobra's hole or home).
Isaiah 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isaiah 11:8 The nursing child will play near a cobra's hole, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. (WEB)
--Or how does the small child play in a viper's den?
--I have seen cobra's in the nation I have worked in. They are not friendly creatures. People die when attacked by them.
I said I wouldn't get into that until my questions about Isaiah 11 were answered, except to reiterate this one statement. I believe what the Bible states, and states adamantly. "The covenants were given to Israel." You apparently don't believe the Bible when it says that. I can pray as the Bible teaches us to pray "Lord help his unbelief."

How can we try to 'shoe horn" into the Bible passages such as Zechariah 14/Isaiah 66, both of which presents a clear picture of the second coming of the Lord jesus, and conditions under His reigning...

When have those conditions been present on earth since His ascension, as A Mils would demand? And how can the church bring them about without the king being present, as post Mil demands?

And when when were they eslablished at His return, as pretierism also demasnds?

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK;

. I believe what the Bible states, and states adamantly. "The covenants were given to Israel." You apparently don't believe the Bible when it says that. I can pray as the Bible teaches us to pray "Lord help his unbelief."[/QUOTE]

Oh but I do believe what the bible says...DHK....and unlike you, I understand what eph2 says about the gentiles being included in the Covenants of promise IN CHRIST...the True Israel;

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision

Uncircumcisision= non covenant people DHK...the word covenant does not appear here...but the sign is used to speak of it:thumbs:


by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

[DHK]

DHK;

. I believe what the Bible states, and states adamantly. "The covenants were given to Israel." You apparently don't believe the Bible when it says that. I can pray as the Bible teaches us to pray "Lord help his unbelief."

Oh but I do believe what the bible says...DHK....and unlike you, I understand what eph2 says about the gentiles being included in the Covenants of promise IN CHRIST...the True Israel;

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision

Uncircumcisision= non covenant people DHK...the word covenant does not appear here...but the sign is used to speak of it:thumbs:


by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Another rabbit trail (that I have previously explained to you).
It still doesn't answer Isaiah 11:6,8. Apparently you cannot answer those verses because they shut you down, and prove beyond any doubt that futurism and dispensationalism are the correct views.

 

[Grasshopper]

Another rabbit trail (that I have previously explained to you).
It still doesn't answer Isaiah 11:6,8. Apparently you cannot answer those verses because they shut you down, and prove beyond any doubt that futurism and dispensationalism are the correct views.

DHK, do you consider Is. 35 to be describing the same time period as Is. 11?

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Another rabbit trail (that I have previously explained to you).

The Eternal purpose of God is not a rabbit trail;


3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.


Gentiles coming in to the Covenant promises...in masse....is not a rabbit trail.....That they come in on equal footing In the Covenant Son and are part of the ONE BODY,ONE NEW MAN, is a mystery that has now been revealed to everyone ,unless they hold a dispensational view...then it is still a mystery to them:thumbsup:

It still doesn't answer Isaiah 11:6,8. Apparently you cannot answer those verses because they shut you down,

Post 101 answers them and still leaves you unable to respond to all the other verses I asked you to explain....You have no explanation....you call them metaphors...yet you have no place for the language.
In case you missed it....P
Paul quotes it in romans 15: Notice in Isa....it says and IN THAT DAY....

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.


9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

and prove beyond any doubt that futurism and dispensationalism are the correct views.

:laugh::laugh: ...hardly DHK....


Now can you show where any writer says Isa 11.....is descriptive of a "future 1000 yr.millenial Kingdom"....who says that isa 11 describes that?

i still am waiting for you explanation of theEx4;22 passage, with hosea 11:1 quoted in Mt 2;15 ....

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK, do you consider Is. 35 to be describing the same time period as Is. 11?

Good chapter grasshopper....."the way of holiness" which zion is in view:thumbs:

 

[DHK]

Now can you show where any writer says Isa 11.....is descriptive of a "future 1000 yr.millenial Kingdom"....who says that isa 11 describes that?

i still am waiting for you explanation of theEx4;22 passage, with hosea 11:1 quoted in Mt 2;15 ....

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

I read through the entirety of post #101. You never referred to these verses once. The closest you came was "the chapter is figurative; the chapter is figurative."
Look! Even Jesus when he gave a parable had the sense to tell what the parable meant. He did not leave his disciples in the dark. He was able to tell the disciples what each part of the parable meant. You are unable to do that. You just say: "It is figurative; it is figurative." You have no answer. You are blind without understanding. You are totally unable to exegete Scripture. Why is that?

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

I read through the entirety of post #101. You never referred to these verses once. The closest you came was "the chapter is figurative; the chapter is figurative."

I will help you see it DHk....perhaps it went a bit too fast for you.
I will give you the special DHK interpretation:thumbsup: stay tuned....

Look! Even Jesus when he gave a parable had the sense to tell what the parable meant. He did not leave his disciples in the dark. He was able to tell the disciples what each part of the parable meant.

Yes and no.....many times he explained the teaching but they like you were:
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


Now comes the usual DHK personal attack....
1] You are unable to do that.
You just say: "It is figurative; it is figurative."

2]You have no answer.

3]You are blind without understanding.

4]You are totally unable to exegete Scripture.

Why is that?

Why is that??? Since you asked DHK:laugh:.....you are unable to understand what is being offered to you,just like with your other errors:thumbsup: that is basically why.....

Your dispensationalism has grown to be an idol that you sacrifice all manner of truth upon it's false teaching altar...that is why.

I will re-post and go in slow motion ...POST 101 that you claim does not address the issue....I will slow it down and add to it....and I then predict you will STILL .....still not be able to give an answer to all the other verses i asked you about...because your theology does not begin to understand the teaching at all ,having departed from the flow of Covenant teaching that is woven throughout scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Nothing in the passage says it is figurative.

You say nothing in Isaiah 11 is figurative???? really....I say it is figurative..with a literal meaning that comes from the figurative language..

so DHK
we can see figures of speech pointing to a literal understanding....of what the figures are getting at.....

Nothing In isa 11 says it is descriptive of a thousand year period before the eternal state.

You and your dispy theory says that....and yet paul quotes from this passage in his day in romans15:

here I quoted from a commentary on this fact:
Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse - This is one of the greatest Messianic prophecies. The stem, stock or stump of Jesse is a metaphor for the remnant of Jesse's family (and the line of David) who were genuine believers in the Messiah (Note: Salvation in the OT was always by grace through faith just as in the NT - cp Ge 15:6 with Ro 4:3, Ro 4:16) and from whom would arise a Shoot or a Rod (KJV), Who in context is a metaphorical description of the Messiah, also described as the Branch. and later as the root of Jesse (Isaiah 11:10).

You whined that i said it is "figurative"...and yet clearly figurative language is employed...stop whining DHK....

You deny the use of figurative language here....
with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.???

It is just your denial of Scripture. It means what it means.

Do you deny that figurative language is used?

I do not deny any scripture.It is figurative language that has a literal meaning, just like when Hebrews says the word of God is a two edged sword. Your wooden literalism is a myth DHK...you also use figures and metaphors....only you alone want the freedom to say when they can be used.

It is written that way to tell us that some day in the future the earth will return to its pre-Adamic state, that is, before Adam fell. When Christ comes he will lift the curse. It is a literal description of the earth without the curse.
The renewed earth will no longer be under the curse in the eternal state

I didn't quote Paul. I quoted Isaiah.

yes you quoted Isaiah....and so did Paul....Paul described the gospel age as fulfilling Isaiah 11.....confirming the promises made to the Jewish fathers...the Covenant promise.....he quotes Isa 11 as being fulfilled in the gospel.

This is part of my answer to these verses DHK...it is descriptive of Jesus confirming the promises made to the Fathers.

The promises{ are found in the Covenants of promise}...The gentiles were part of those covenant promises...even though the unbelieving jews in the 1st century,and modern day dispensationalists deny this completely as you do with your statement that gentiles are not in the Covenant...

you say

These things have not happened yet. They mean something.

Paul quotes Isa 11 as a reality in his day. He says that in the gospel and kingdom Jesus has confirmed the promises made to The Fathers....he tells gentiles that the OT saints were fathers in the faith of which they as gentiles are grafted into.

Words have meanings. Explain the verses Icon.
Allegory or not, they still have meaning. Explain the verses, and stop beating around the bush!!!!!

I offered an explanation that you do not agree with.I offered you this-

notice in verse 1 of isa11...it mentions a rod, a stem ,and a branch and roots,yet none of that language is speaking of a literal plant, or tree, but a person.
vs 4 speaks of the earth being smitten...with the rod of His mouth and the breath of His lips.....looks like it might be descriptive language to describe literal events...Do you agree????

You do not take this literally as written.....he is Clothed with righteousness and faithfulness.....figurative descriptive language of the characteristics of His reign.....

So when the peaceful characteristic of the kingdom is described in figurative language...you determine that this figurative language must be literally fulfilled in a different kingdom than the one Paul has been describing????
the descriptive language is speaking about the curse being reversed in the Kingdom....man is at peace with God.....the language of the curse being removed is to indicate it...The kingdom is still growing and progressing until the last day.Nothing in Isaiah 11...says this is in a future Kingdom..it is speaking of what is taking place in the kingdom now using figurative descriptive language.



So DHK...pay careful attention my friend.....
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

The wolf....literally like to snack on a lamb.leopards like to feed on a kid,calfs and lions are normally in this sin cursed earth a danger to little children....they like to bite them....ouch!!!! poisonous snakes bite little children....

but using this figurative language is describing that in the Gospel the effects of the curse will be reversed.it does not give an exact time frame of time limit.....

paul says it is true in the gospel and the kingdom that has been initiated...

17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.



look at vs 14-
14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west;

look in 15-
15 And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea;

DHK....what is the tongue of the egyptian sea??? Is this something in the millenium in the future...literally, or is this language figurative???
Paul says...quoting from isa.....In that day the gentiles seek him...that day has been since the apostolic days DHK....gentiles included in the promises.



here is from a commentary showing what i have already indicated,it is supportive of what i offered as you can offer from premill writers what they say.


Isaiah continues the arbor (tree) imagery as he turns from the description of one felled tree (Assyrian) to another felled tree (Judah). The first tree fell with finality, whereas the second tree has signs of life in the root. Whereas the tree of Assyria was lopped off and would never grow again, God promised Judah that even though she would be punished (eventually with exile into Babylon in 586BC), "regrowth" of the nation would occur because God had assured there would be a believing remnant.

Isaiah had previously alluded to the believing remnant, although not yet clearly associating it with the Messiah until here in Isaiah 11:1. In the opening chapter Isaiah wrote that...

Unless the LORD of hosts had left us (Isaiah personalizes this passage, so "us" = Jews) a few survivors (the believing remnant which Paul quotes in Ro 9:29-note to explain that God still had a plan for the Jews, but ultimately it would only be those Jews who believed in Messiah, cp Ro 11:25, 26, 27-note), we would be like Sodom, we would be like Gomorrah. (Isaiah 1:9)





To reiterate, though most of God's people would reject God, the tenth, the stump, the holy seed would be a remnant in Israel who would hear and believe God's promise of a Messiah (first prophesied in Genesis 3:15) Who would be their Redeemer (cp Isa 54:8, 59:20 quoted in Ro 11:26-note). In other words just as a tree may sprout again from a stump, so there would be a faithful remnant of Judah who would survive. In Isaiah 6:13, the holy (set apart by God and for God) seed refers specifically to the believing remnant of the tribe of Judah of the family of Jesse from whom the seed of the Messiah would come just as Paul explained in Galatians.

Now the promises were spoken to Abraham (the believer Gal 3:9) and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. (Gal 3:16, cp Ge 13:16, 15:5, 22:17 where "descendents" = seed [Hebrew = masculine, singular in all the preceding passages]).

For He (Messiah) grew up before Him (God the Father) like a tender shoot, and like a root out of parched ground. He has no stately form or majesty that we should look upon Him, (Isaiah 53:2).

Then it will come about in that day that the nations will resort to the root of Jesse (Messiah), Who will stand as a signal for the peoples and His resting place will be glorious. (Isaiah 11:10)

I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star. (Rev 22:16-note)

looks biblical to me DHK....

Now can you show where any writer says Isa 11.....is descriptive of a "future 1000 yr.millenial Kingdom"....who says that isa 11 describes that?

i still am waiting for you explanation of theEx4;22 passage, with hosea 11:1 quoted in Mt 2;15 ....

additional reading on the figurative language;

http://kloposmasm.com/tag/isaiah-11/

http://paradiseregained.wordpress.co...anch-of-jesse/

 

[DHK]

yes you quoted Isaiah....and so did Paul....Paul described the gospel age as fulfilling Isaiah 11.....confirming the promises made to the Jewish fathers...the Covenant promise.....he quotes Isa 11 as being fulfilled in the gospel.

Paul quoted part of that passage, not all of it. Please remember that the original had no chapter divisions. They were put in much later. Just because Paul quoted a couple of verses that refer to the Messiah doesn't mean the entire book must be interpreted that way.
Similes and metaphors are used extensively by Isaiah.
He starts in chapter one where perhaps you can actually understand one of them.
"Though your sins be as scarlet they shall be white as snow.
Though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."
Two similes that describe the complete forgiveness of our sins by our Lord, but you know that our sins are not the color of red don't you?
Words have meaning.

This is part of my answer to these verses DHK...it is descriptive of Jesus confirming the promises made to the Fathers.

Jesus didn't do that.

The promises{ are found in the Covenants of promise}...The gentiles were part of those covenant promises...even though the unbelieving jews in the 1st century,and modern day dispensationalists deny this completely as you do with your statement that gentiles are not in the Covenant...

Scripture is clear; why not believe it? The covenants were given to Israel.

you say
Paul quotes Isa 11 as a reality in his day. He says that in the gospel and kingdom Jesus has confirmed the promises made to The Fathers....he tells gentiles that the OT saints were fathers in the faith of which they as gentiles are grafted into.

Did I say that? Show me.

I offered an explanation that you do not agree with.I offered you this-

No you haven't. You have never once touched these verses.

notice in verse 1 of isa11...it mentions a rod, a stem ,and a branch and roots,yet none of that language is speaking of a literal plant, or tree, but a person.

It is a metaphor. Jesus said: "I am the door." Does he look like one, Icon?
Do you understand metaphors?

vs 4 speaks of the earth being smitten...with the rod of His mouth and the breath of His lips.....looks like it might be descriptive language to describe literal events...Do you agree????

There are no mights or maybes here. The Bible interprets itself. We can find such expressions in other parts of Scripture. We can compare scripture with scripture.

You do not take this literally as written.....he is Clothed with righteousness and faithfulness.....figurative descriptive language of the characteristics of His reign.....

I believe that when God looks down upon me, he does not see the sinful DHK, but rather DHK "clothed" in the righteousness of Jesus Christ. So, yes, I believe it is a rather literal translation.

So when the peaceful characteristic of the kingdom is described in figurative language...you determine that this figurative language must be literally fulfilled in a different kingdom than the one Paul has been describing????

Paul does not describe a peaceful kingdom now. Paul adamantly says that Satan is the god of this world. He says that the kingdom now in this world is Satan's kingdom and Satan rules this earth. Christ's Kingdom is yet to come.
Do you believe in the "Lord's Prayer," that Jesus taught the disciples to pray?
"Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven."
We are to pray that God's Kingdom will still come, and meanwhile we still pray that his will, will be done in our lives as it is in heaven. Is it?
The kingdom is still to come. And according to Rev.20:1-3 it is a thousand years in duration.

the descriptive language is speaking about the curse being reversed in the Kingdom....man is at peace with God.....the language of the curse being removed is to indicate it...The kingdom is still growing and progressing until the last day.

This is Satan's kingdom not God's.
What happened in Washington D.C. in these past couple of days?
--A civilian goes on a shooting rampage killing people? This is your idea of God's kingdom? The curse has been lifted? Really?
What about in Colorado? Denver? Boulder? Colorado Springs?
--Floods such as they have never seen before, wiping out many of their homes, killing many people already, many are still missing. This is God's kingdom of peace? Really?
What about in Syria, where President Bashar al Assad rules. He has killed hundreds with Sarin gas. Christ allows this in His Kingdom?? Surely you jest? This is Satan's kingdom, not Christ's kingdom. In Christ's Kingdom there will be peace not war. Here are some links for you to look at:

http://www.worthynews.com/12588-india-church-destroyed-christians-attacked-by-hindus

http://www.worthynews.com/12586-nigeria-demolition-of-church-buildings

And this is the peaceful kingdom of Christ? Are you serious??

Nothing in Isaiah 11...says this is in a future Kingdom..it is speaking of what is taking place in the kingdom now using figurative descriptive language.

Yes, peaceful; not war-torn and ravaged; sin-sick, corrupt beyond imagination, ready for the wrath of God, wickedness so evil it cannot be mentioned, etc.
Peace--no; everything but peace--total evil in this wicked world ruled by Satan.

So DHK...pay careful attention my friend.....
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

The wolf....literally like to snack on a lamb.leopards like to feed on a kid,calfs and lions are normally in this sin cursed earth a danger to little children....they like to bite them....ouch!!!! poisonous snakes bite little children....

but using this figurative language is describing that in the Gospel the effects of the curse will be reversed.it does not give an exact time frame of time limit.....

paul says it is true in the gospel and the kingdom that has been initiated...

That kind of peace has not come to this world, not even with the gospel. That is a stretch of the imagination. Are you writing a fairy tale? Even with allegory it has to make sense.
Peace! Peace! saith the wicked; but there is no peace.
The wicked cast up mire and dirt.
This kingdom is Satan's kingdom. Christ's kingdom has not come yet, for Christ has not yet come. When he comes there will be peace. We live in a wicked world where the evil one is reigning.

17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

And does that reign in ALL the earth, right now?

look at vs 14-
14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west;

look in 15-
15 And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea;

DHK....what is the tongue of the egyptian sea??? Is this something in the millenium in the future...literally, or is this language figurative???
Paul says...quoting from isa.....In that day the gentiles seek him...that day has been since the apostolic days DHK....gentiles included in the promises.

No doubt the "tongue" is a geographical feature. Thus it is literal.
The millenium is future, and is literal.
Gentiles will enter into the Kingdom from the Tribulation Period just preceding it. I gave a full commentary on Isaiah chapters 65 and 66 in the other thread. Whatever Gentiles enter into Kingdom will be included in the Kingdom and be subject to the rule of Christ. Why must everything be a covenant to you? The covenant was to Israel. It is then Israel will be restored as a nation and God's promises to her fulfilled. What has that to do with the Gentiles? Nothing!

Now can you show where any writer says Isa 11.....is descriptive of a "future 1000 yr.millenial Kingdom"....who says that isa 11 describes that?

Revelation 20:1-3

 

[Grasshopper]

DHK, do you consider Is. 35 to be describing the same time period as Is. 11?

I guess I'll answer my own question since DHK didn't. The answer is yes, they are both speaking of the MK. From a Dispie:

Isaiah Chapter 35

In verses 35:1-10, the prophet Isaiah now turns to a message of hope for the future. After the great destruction of the Tribulation period will come the blessing of the millennial age when the desert “shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.”

*http://www.bible-studys.org/Bible Books/Isaiah/Isaiah Chapter 35.html


So let's take them both literally:


Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 35:9*No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

Oops.

 

[DHK]

I guess I'll answer my own question since DHK didn't. The answer is yes, they are both speaking of the MK. From a Dispie:

Isaiah Chapter 35

In verses 35:1-10, the prophet Isaiah now turns to a message of hope for the future. After the great destruction of the Tribulation period will come the blessing of the millennial age when the desert “shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.”

*http://www.bible-studys.org/Bible%20...pter%2035.html


So let's take them both literally:


Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 35:9*No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

Oops.

Context is imperative (Oops!)

Isaiah 34:1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

These two chapters (34 & 35) are an indictment against the nations. Isaiah invites them to come near and hear the judgment of God.
In the Millennial Kingdom there is a "Highway of Holiness" to Jerusalem.
Though the earth is inhabited by wolves, lambs, serpents, etc. all living in harmony.
But look at the contrast:
In chapter 34 there is the judgment of Edom. The vocabulary used in the judgment of Edom is:
"the people of my curse" (6), "brimstone and burning pitch" (9), "smoke shall ascend forever" (10), "pelican...owl...raven...ostriches" (unclean birds, a sign of desolation) [11,13], "divided it with a measuring line" (17).
--The Lord has set apart Edom and made her ripe for judgement. The colorful and descriptive language used describes both Edom and the judgment she is about to receive.

Now consider the contrast in chapter 35.
Edom is about to become a desert.
But in the Messiah's reign (the MK), the entire earth will become a flourishing garden. (vs.1-4)
"desert...as the rose" (1)
"weak hands...feeble knees" (vs.3: Heb12:12) --strengthening.
"vengeance...save you" (4) The vengeance of God as a means to redeem God's people (Israel).
"eyes opened...ears unstopped" (5)
"lame...sing" (6)
"streams in the desert...springs of water" (6,7)
"Highway of holiness" (8)
"Lion, ravenous beast" (9)
--No ferocious beasts will be found on this highway, on which the redeemed will be traveling.

Context is everything.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK.....
I asked you-
Now can you show where any writer says Isa 11.....is descriptive of a "future 1000 yr.millenial Kingdom"....who says that isa 11 describes that?


Your answer was;
Revelation 20:1-3

let's see if Rev 20:1-3 describes.....

1]A future 1000yr earthly reign.....or something else...

2] Does this passage speak or relate to Isa.11 at all????

Let's look together-

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Well DHK....John describes satan being bound.....ok.....

No mention of anything being on earth...it describes satan being bound , and a bottomless pit....No mention of isa 11 at all...this section of scripture does not answer the question at all

When you tried to put me down you made 4 statements toward me....let me apply your own medicine to you DHK-

1] You are unable to do that.
You just say: "It is figurative; it is figurative."

2]You have no answer.

3]You are blind without understanding.

4]You are totally unable to exegete Scripture.

Looks like a better fit on you in this post....As a matter of fact....

This passage does not help you at all,In fact we will discover that no passage will as the position is not in scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

I guess I'll answer my own question since DHK didn't. The answer is yes, they are both speaking of the MK. From a Dispie:

Isaiah Chapter 35

In verses 35:1-10, the prophet Isaiah now turns to a message of hope for the future. After the great destruction of the Tribulation period will come the blessing of the millennial age when the desert “shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.”

*http://www.bible-studys.org/Bible Books/Isaiah/Isaiah Chapter 35.html


So let's take them both literally:


Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isaiah 35:9*No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

Oops.

:thumbs::applause::thumbs: