Question for covenantalist regarding the new covenant.

[Jope]

If the new covenant has been entirely fulfilled in the Church today, so that "all...know [The Lord], from the least to the greatest" (Heb. 8:11, KJV), then how come 1 Corinthians 15:34 tells us that "some [of the Church] have no knowledge of God" (ESV)?

(See also 1 Corinthians 8:7a: "However, not all possess this knowledge", ESV).

 

[Iconoclast]

If the new covenant has been entirely fulfilled in the Church today, so that "all...know [The Lord], from the least to the greatest" (Heb. 8:11, KJV), then how come 1 Corinthians 15:34 tells us that "some [of the Church] have no knowledge of God" (ESV)?

(See also 1 Corinthians 8:7a: "However, not all possess this knowledge", ESV).

,what do you mean by the term.....covenatalist

 

[Jope]

,what do you mean by the term.....covenatalist

Hey there Iconoclast.

You are postmillennial, is that correct? (I remember reading a previous post of yours, just wanted to make sure that's what your position is).

(You believe that the Church has replaced Israel, and that there is no more promise to Israel except they be converted to Christianity)?

 

[Iconoclast]

Hey there Iconoclast.

You are postmillennial, is that correct? (I remember reading a previous post of yours, just wanted to make sure that's what your position is).

(You believe that the Church has replaced Israel, and that there is no more promise to Israel except they be converted to Christianity)?

I believe the scripture indicates that the Christian Israel are now the people of God.

Moses...gives way to Jesus.....one new man in Christ.

Jesus Christ is the true Israel[the true covenant Son].....and us in Him by Spirit baptism.

I lean post mill...but Amill is very close....

When people try and say "replacement theology"...they do not understand the position......it is an expansion.....elect remnant of Israel, elect gentiles grafted in....one new man.

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe the scripture indicates that the Christian Israel are now the people of God.

Moses...gives way to Jesus.....one new man in Christ.

Jesus Christ is the true Israel[the true covenant Son].....and us in Him by Spirit baptism.

I lean post mill...but Amill is very close....

When people try and say "replacement theology"...they do not understand the position......it is an expansion.....elect remnant of Israel, elect gentiles grafted in....one new man.

You do see a basic continuity between Old and new Covenants, correct? like the Old one blossomed out and added gentiles in, while I wold se it as 2 distinct and different Covenants?

 

[Iconoclast]

You do see a basic continuity between Old and new Covenants, correct? like the Old one blossomed out and added gentiles in, while I wold se it as 2 distinct and different Covenants?

Good question. When I was learning the dispensational system I learned that each covenant was sort of distinct.It was work just to lay out all the ideas .

You do see a basic continuity between Old and new Covenants, correct?

In time yes....That is how I understand it now...let me explain briefly but I would like to ask you to consider a few questions as I prepare an answer....

like the Old one blossomed out and added gentiles in, while I wold se it as 2 distinct and different Covenants?

Are you thinking of two distinct covenants being Old Covenant/New Covenant?

 

[Iconoclast]

Y1,

The scripture speaks of a continuity of the Covenants .Let me offer this briefly;

there is more involved than just OC/NC.....

gentiles were always to be a part of the CoG...the question was never ...."if."..but when and how....

the "mystery" was not that they were to be included.....but how and on equal footing.

Jer 31.....promise of a NC...presupposes the OC was going away....

several portions in the NT...indicate a continuity...not something radically different...
for example....

1]mt 21;43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Taken from....and given to...... not ended and starting all over!

2]In romans 11....notice...the gentiles are....GRAFTED IN......what was the promise {covenant} that the gentiles were grafted into.....in other words...it does not say...I am going to plant a brand new tree....they are grafted in to what existed already....unbelieving covenant breakers were broken off in unbelief....

and yet we know that there is a newness to the NC!

3] Paul speaking to gentiles in cornith refers to the Ot saints as ....OUR FATHERS....

10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;


There is much more...but do you get the idea???

 

[Herald]

You do see a basic continuity between Old and new Covenants, correct? like the Old one blossomed out and added gentiles in, while I wold se it as 2 distinct and different Covenants?

I am not sure what you mean by a continuity between the Old and New Covenants.

As a Baptist I believe the New Covenant is a completely new covenant. Many of our Presbyterian brethren view the New Covenant as a refreshed form of the Old Covenant. I believe scripture is very clear on the unique nature of the New Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,"

Now, I do believe that God's promises to national Israel are now fulfilled in the New Testament Church. God's promises as spiritual, not physical. In other words there is no promise that the Church will inherit the land of Israel. This leads to a discussion on the differences between Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology, a discussion I am not wont to have at 4:54 AM!

Blessings.

 

[Jope]

I believe the scripture indicates that the Christian Israel are now the people of God.

Are you speaking of Galatians 6:16?

Moses...gives way to Jesus.....one new man in Christ.

If you're saying that Moses was a type of Christ, then I'd agree with you.

Jesus Christ is the true Israel[the true covenant Son].....and us in Him by Spirit baptism.

Where does scripture say that Jesus Christ is the true Israel?

(I hope I'm not sounding rude by the way, I really would like to know where scripture says this).

I believe that Jesus Christ, since He is of the seed of Abraham (Mt. 1:1), is within Israel. And since we are the body of Christ (Eph. 5:30-32), who is within Israel (Mt. 1:1), we are a part of Israel, but the Church is still distinct from Israel.

Fruchtenbaum (dispensationalist) said, "[w]hen a Jew becomes a believer, the New Testament never states that he abandons his national standing. In fact, the New Testament views the remnant as always being within the nation and not outside of it" (2001, p. 433).

Fruchtenbaum, A (2001). Israelology. San Antonio, TX, USA: Ariel Ministries. (Original work published 1989).​

 

[Jope]

When people try and say "replacement theology"...they do not understand the position......it is an expansion.....elect remnant of Israel, elect gentiles grafted in....one new man.

So do you believe that Israel has forfeited her chances of receiving any promises of God except they be converted to Christianity?

Covenantalism (to answer your question) believes that Israel cannot inherit any promises except they be converted to Christianity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_theology

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

... then how come 1 Corinthians 15:34 tells us that "some [of the Church] have no knowledge of God" (ESV)?

That's not what the ESV or any other reliable version say:

1 Corinthians 15, ESV
34 Wake up from your drunken stupor, as is right, and do not go on sinning. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.

1 Corinthians 15, NASB
34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

1 Corinthians 15, NIV
34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God--I say this to your shame.

1 Corinthians 15, KJV
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.​

Not the church. The world.

 

[Jope]

That's not what the ESV or any other reliable version say:

1 Corinthians 15, ESV
34 Wake up from your drunken stupor, as is right, and do not go on sinning. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame.

1 Corinthians 15, NASB
34 Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning; for some have no knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

1 Corinthians 15, NIV
34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God--I say this to your shame.

1 Corinthians 15, KJV
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.​

Not the church. The world.

Hey thisnumbersdisconnected. Just so there's no confusion, are you dispensational, pre-mill, pre-trib? It sounds like you are from your other post.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Hey thisnumbersdisconnected. Just so there's no confusion, are you dispensational, pre-mill, pre-trib? It sounds like you are from your other post.

That obvious, huh?

 

[percho]

Y1,

The scripture speaks of a continuity of the Covenants .Let me offer this briefly;

there is more involved than just OC/NC.....

gentiles were always to be a part of the CoG...the question was never ...."if."..but when and how....

the "mystery" was not that they were to be included.....but how and on equal footing.

Jer 31.....promise of a NC...presupposes the OC was going away....

several portions in the NT...indicate a continuity...not something radically different...
for example....

1]mt 21;43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Taken from....and given to...... not ended and starting all over!

2]In romans 11....notice...the gentiles are....GRAFTED IN......what was the promise {covenant} that the gentiles were grafted into.....in other words...it does not say...I am going to plant a brand new tree....they are grafted in to what existed already....unbelieving covenant breakers were broken off in unbelief....

and yet we know that there is a newness to the NC!

3] Paul speaking to gentiles in cornith refers to the Ot saints as ....OUR FATHERS....

10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;


There is much more...but do you get the idea???

According to covenant thought I would like your thoughts concerning;

And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

I emboldened and underlined because I believe it concerns two different peoples.

Covenant wise were those emboldened after this still a part of the covenant?

When God did that did these people then become, " That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:" Eph. 2:12

Would the following placed in between the verse concerning the law and the prophets were until John and since then the kingdom of God being preached and the story of the rich man and Lazarus, " Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from [her] husband committeth adultery," apply to those people emboldened?

Who only, can take the one who has been put away without there being adultery?

Is the treacherous sister, being addressed in the passage from Luke 16?

Is the OC, old because it was made with temporal people and the NC, new because it is made with eternal people?

 

[Iconoclast]

Jope,

Hello Jope...

Are you speaking of Galatians 6:16?

good verse...

If you're saying that Moses was a type of Christ, then I'd agree with you.

HEBREWS3:1-6
3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end

Moses as a servant...Christ as Son....

Where does scripture say that Jesus Christ is the true Israel?

Yes...in the servant Song from isa 49:
Isaiah 49

King James Version (KJV)

49 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.

5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.

10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

Jesus is: the true covenant Son......Israel failed to be-
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn

Jesus is the new exodus-
mt2:15, the true tabernacle heb8;2 the passover 1cor5:7, the true manna, jn6...the last Adam....

(I hope I'm not sounding rude by the way, I really would like to know where scripture says this).

Not a problem...this is BB...i usually get much worse:laugh::wavey:

I believe that Jesus Christ, since He is of the seed of Abraham (Mt. 1:1), is within Israel. And since we are the body of Christ (Eph. 5:30-32), who is within Israel (Mt. 1:1), we are a part of Israel, but the Church is still distinct from Israel.

I know...I used to believe that also....until I really re-examined the passages without my Scofield bible and dallas seminary tapes, and JohnM....lol...

The wooden literalism hinders the flow of scripture....i believe there is plenty that is literal...just that God has used several kinds of language...parable narrative, parralelisms,poetry, prophetic, to reveal literal truth..sometime through types and shadows....
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself,

Fruchtenbaum (dispensationalist) said, "[w]hen a Jew becomes a believer, the New Testament never states that he abandons his national standing. In fact, the New Testament views the remnant as always being within the nation and not outside of it" (2001, p. 433).

Fruchtenbaum, A (2001). Israelology. San Antonio, TX, USA: Ariel Ministries. (Original work published 1989).​

[/QUOTE]
there is a future for some among national israel...but yes they have to be saved like anyone else now...one new man in Christ!

 

[Iconoclast]

According to covenant thought I would like your thoughts concerning;

And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

I emboldened and underlined because I believe it concerns two different peoples.

Covenant wise were those emboldened after this still a part of the covenant?

When God did that did these people then become, " That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:" Eph. 2:12

Would the following placed in between the verse concerning the law and the prophets were until John and since then the kingdom of God being preached and the story of the rich man and Lazarus, " Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from [her] husband committeth adultery," apply to those people emboldened?

Who only, can take the one who has been put away without there being adultery?

Is the treacherous sister, being addressed in the passage from Luke 16?

Is the OC, old because it was made with temporal people and the NC, new because it is made with eternal people?

The term "backslider " is a very clearly used term ,used 17 times in 3 OT books...it always speaks of an apostate who perishes in unbelief...a covenant breaker.

7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.


In revelation.....national israel was the harlot who gets "put away"...the believing israel are In Christ ...the bride.[church]



unsaved gentiles and apostates are in this condidtion....

" That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:" Eph. 2:12

Apostates do not come back-

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[Jope]

Jope,

Hello Jope...

Hello Iconoclast

Where does scripture say that Jesus Christ is the true Israel?

Yes...in the servant Song from isa 49:
Isaiah 49

King James Version (KJV)

49 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.

5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.

10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

I know...I used to believe that also....

I think that we were/are both kind of saying the same thing. I guess my question was or is more so, where does Scripture ever say that Jesus is the true Israel. To say that Jesus is the true Israel implies that there is a false Israel (which I guess is not implausible, given such passages as Isaiah 59:20, Romans 11:25-29 and Romans 9:6).

So just disregard my question I guess

The answer to Isaiah 49, is that Jesus is within Israel, being of the seed of David/Abraham (Mt. 1:1). That's why He's called "Israel" in Isaiah 49.

The wooden literalism hinders the flow of scripture

I agree. Not all dispensationalists would disagree with you by the way.

J. Dwight Pentecost doesn't disagree with you (1958, p. 12):

Here [Biblical Eschatology] as in no other field, except perhaps the doctrine of the person of Christ, are the important tools of exegesis, synthesis, hermeneutics, and theological system displayed. The fine judgment necessary to discern that which is to be literally interpreted in contrast to spiritual and allegorical interpretation is demanded. The consistency of the entire revelation of God contained in the Old and New Testament must be maintained. The intricate details of prophecy must be related without contradiction.

Pentecost, J. D. (1958). Things to Come. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Dunham Publishing Company.​

Darby and Chafer also believed in some allegorical interpretation of the Scriptures.

 

[Jope]

there is a future for some among national israel...but yes they have to be saved like anyone else now...one new man in Christ!

What's your take on Psalm 45? Specifically verses 13-14?

Also, Luke 12:35-36?

Psalm 45 ESV
13​​​​​​​​All glorious is the princess in her chamber, with robes interwoven with gold. ​​​ 14​​​​​​​​In many-colored robes she is led to the king, ​​​​​​​with her virgin companions following behind her.

Luke 12 ESV
35“Stay dressed for action and keep your lamps burning, 36and be like men who are waiting for their master to come home from the wedding feast, so that they may open the door to him at once when he comes and knocks.​

Who do you think the "virgin companions" are of Psalm 45:14, and the "princess" of the preceding verse?

Also, who is Christ speaking to in Luke 12:35-36, who are to "be like men who are waiting for their master to come home from the wedding feast"?

(Do you think that Matthew 25:1-13 elucidates any of this?)

 

[Yeshua1]

What's your take on Psalm 45? Specifically verses 13-14?

Also, Luke 12:35-36?

Psalm 45 ESV
13​​​​​​​​All glorious is the princess in her chamber, with robes interwoven with gold. ​​​ 14​​​​​​​​In many-colored robes she is led to the king, ​​​​​​​with her virgin companions following behind her.

Luke 12 ESV
35“Stay dressed for action and keep your lamps burning, 36and be like men who are waiting for their master to come home from the wedding feast, so that they may open the door to him at once when he comes and knocks.​

Who do you think the "virgin companions" are of Psalm 45:14, and the "princess" of the preceding verse?

Also, who is Christ speaking to in Luke 12:35-36, who are to "be like men who are waiting for their master to come home from the wedding feast"?

(Do you think that Matthew 25:1-13 elucidates any of this?)

we need to understand that Paul said that the 'real jew" was one who received Jesus as the promised messiah, ansd so they would be part of the real isreal of God, the saved jewish remnant throughout time, but that gentiles were saved also by Jesus, and were in the Church, so God kept both plans ongoing for isreal and his church!

 

[Iconoclast]

Jope

Hello Jope,
I am enjoying your posts and the solid and biblical interaction:wavey:
I am still very much a work in progress on all of these topics,as they relate to forming a faithful and proper biblical christian worldview.
How we understand these truths affects how we live and present the gospel/Kingdom to those who we speak and live in front of.

I like what I see in your responses in that it is obvious you have given thought to many of these things.....and have a proper respect for the study of these verses.:thumbs:

I think that we were/are both kind of saying the same thing.

These vital passages of scripture demand that any christian hold the essential core of the truth contained in them no matter which end time calendar is being used:thumbs:

I guess my question was or is more so, where does Scripture ever say that Jesus is the true Israel. To say that Jesus is the true Israel implies that there is a false Israel (which I guess is not implausible, given such passages as Isaiah 59:20, Romans 11:25-29 and Romans 9:6).

So just disregard my question I guess

On the contrary...it is a good question and requires a good deal of study to get a handle on.

As Adam was to be a proper image bearer of God,failed at the fall...and has this Image restored in Jesus....

Israel was to be the True Covenant Son and Servant of God..ex4:22...

They as Adam...failed as a nation....and The Holy Nation...ex19,1 pet2....
is now In Christ being restored and in this way fulfilling the Divine purpose here on earth although the reign is administered from Heaven.
Gentiles were always part of this design....just that now we have come in fully and on equal footing eph2

The answer to Isaiah 49, is that Jesus is within Israel, being of the seed of David/Abraham (Mt. 1:1). That's why He's called "Israel" in Isaiah 49.

Yes...but I see it as MUCH more....


I

agree. Not all dispensationalists would disagree with you by the way.

J. Dwight Pentecost doesn't disagree with you (1958, p. 12):

Here [Biblical Eschatology] as in no other field, except perhaps the doctrine of the person of Christ, are the important tools of exegesis, synthesis, hermeneutics, and theological system displayed. The fine judgment necessary to discern that which is to be literally interpreted in contrast to spiritual and allegorical interpretation is demanded. The consistency of the entire revelation of God contained in the Old and New Testament must be maintained. The intricate details of prophecy must be related without contradiction.

Pentecost, J. D. (1958). Things to Come. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Dunham Publishing Company.​

Darby and Chafer also believed in some allegorical interpretation of the Scriptures.

[/QUOTE]


good book and a classic presentation of that view....I initially enjoyed it very much as it offered much help and many verses...

it was the passages that were not addressed that caused me to continue searching it out a bit more.