Question for free willers

samarelda · Mar 29, 2006

Originally posted by npetreley:
CHEAT SHEET:

Q1. Why did you choose to accept the Gospel and another person reject it?

A1. Because we are different.

Q2. Who made the difference?

A2. God.

Does this mean that I am not responsible for my actions?

npetreley · Mar 29, 2006

Originally posted by samarelda:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by npetreley:
CHEAT SHEET:

Q1. Why did you choose to accept the Gospel and another person reject it?

A1. Because we are different.

Q2. Who made the difference?

A2. God.

Does this mean that I am not responsible for my actions? [/QUOTE]No. What you're asking is basically this...

Romans 9: Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

Notice what Paul does NOT say. He does not say, "God still blames you because He gave you the ability to choose Him of your own free will and you refused to choose Him of your own free will."

Keep reading past that part in Romans if you really want to know why God would make some vessels for honor and some for dishonor. Regardless, we're all born guilty and responsible for our actions. If God chooses only some on which to have mercy, what is that to you? Who are you (or I) to tell God how He should distribute His mercy?

Me4Him · Mar 29, 2006

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
[QB] <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
In the sense that God "Foreknew" everything that is going to happen, it might as well be "predestine", because it is going to occur,

Now you're getting somewhere...

On the other hand, it's going to occur as the results of man reaping what he sowed through his actions, God's not responsible for man's sin or his belief/unbelief.

How can something future occur as the results of a man who doesn't yet exist doing something? Does that person go back in time and do something so that the future event can occur?

So the future is not "set in stone", for the world or any person, "Foreknowledge" can change as demonstrated in the OT, destroying Israel making a nation from Moses.

I'm sorry, but the Bible disagrees with you and other people who espouse this view called Open Theism.

Isaiah 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'

It doesn't sound to me like the God who described Himself to Isaiah had any problem with a changing future. He declared the end from the beginning. He declared from ancient times things that are not yet done. He says, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure."

This is the sovereign God of Calvinists. If you don't like it, you have a problem with Him.

[/QUOTE]10 Declaring the end from the beginning,

Here's the "END" declared from the beginning.

And I don't see anything in it about who will/won't be saved.

'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'

Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD:

Men perishing "ISN'T" God's pleasure. (Will)

Like the "TRINITY", Jesus "IS" God, but he "AINT", he's the "SON", it depends on "CONTEXT" of scripture.

A "SURE SIGN" of "Carnal interpretation" is attempting to make Jesus "FULLY" man or "FULLY" God,

the "Differences" between the two prevents the carnal mind from accepting them as being the same.

How the future can be known yet not predestinated, is equivalent to explaining the Trinity to the carnal minded, it can't be done, there are "TOO MANY DIFFERENCES" between them, but nevertheless, it's still "TRUE".

You haven't "MASTERED" this "PRINCIPLE" of "IT IS, BUT IT AINT" to understand the Scriptures, but nevertheless, it's TRUE.

BTW, You'll find this little principle throughout scripture, as other's come to mind, I'll post them.

Calvibaptist · Mar 29, 2006

Originally posted by Me4Him:
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,

Here's the "END" declared from the beginning.

And I don't see anything in it about who will/won't be saved.

You really make me laugh! You are going to show me a chart that you developed and that is supposed to prove something??? I have quoted you Scripture. That is the only thing that proves anything.

Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD:

Men perishing "ISN'T" God's pleasure. (Will)

OOOOHHH! You can do a word search. Now, explain to me how God doesn't get His will done when He says that "all my counsel will stand." And He says He works all things after the counsel of His will.

Like the "TRINITY", Jesus "IS" God, but he "AINT", he's the "SON", it depends on "CONTEXT" of scripture.

Well, at least you know a little bit about theology.

A "SURE SIGN" of "Carnal interpretation" is attempting to make Jesus "FULLY" man or "FULLY" God,

Uuuuuuhhhhh.... The last time I checked, the church had hashed this out in the 400's. If you knew anything about church history, you would know that the Council of Chalcedon stated that Jesus is fully God AND fully man. Are you suggesting something different? If you are, you are going against what everyone on this board believes.

the "Differences" between the two prevents the carnal mind from accepting them as being the same.

Not sure how this has anything to do with what we are talking about.

How the future can be known yet not predestinated, is equivalent to explaining the Trinity to the carnal minded, it can't be done, there are "TOO MANY DIFFERENCES" between them, but nevertheless, it's still "TRUE".

One problem - both the Trinity and Predestination are explained in the Scripture, so your example doesn't work.

You haven't "MASTERED" this "PRINCIPLE" of "IT IS, BUT IT AINT" to understand the Scriptures, but nevertheless, it's TRUE.

BTW, You'll find this little principle of throughout scripture, as other's come to mind, I'll post them.

Your principle is silly. It could apply to anything. An apple IS a fruit, but IT AINT a pear. Well, duh! My 5-year old son has that figured out.

Plain Old Bill · Mar 29, 2006

For Calvibaptist,
I've gone through Barnes,Henry,Gill,JFB,KJ Bible commentary,Wycliffe,The Bible Knowledge Commentary,KJ Study Bible,NKJ Study Bible,ISBE,and a few I can't remember off the top of my head.Only Gill and Henry agree with you on chapter 9 of Romans.
Am I correct in reading Calvin in the Institutes book 1 chapter 15 part 8 when he says we had free will but lost it when Adam sinned?So far this gentleman quotes Socrates and Plato a little much for my taste.

At present I am teaching myself Greek but certainly don't know enough to attempt my own interpretation of Chapter 9 of Romans or any other chapter for that matter.I will continue to check out Calvins Institutes. If there are any particular places you could reference it would be helpful.Up to the moment I have given this OP 10 hours of diligent study beginning my last entry .I think in the time that has passed that is more than a fair effort.However the deeper I dig into the Calvinist stand especially by reading in the "Institutes", the less impressed I am.I am not trying to be critical,just trying to let you know what I'm seeing so far.

Me4Him · Mar 29, 2006

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
OOOOHHH! You can do a word search. Now, explain to me how God doesn't get His will done when He says that "all my counsel will stand." And He says He works all things after the counsel of His will.

God's will is that not any should perish, so nobody goes to hell, WHOPPEEE !!!!

JackRUS · Mar 29, 2006

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
For Calvibaptist,
I've gone through Barnes,Henry,Gill,JFB,KJ Bible commentary,Wycliffe,The Bible Knowledge Commentary,KJ Study Bible,NKJ Study Bible,ISBE,and a few I can't remember off the top of my head.Only Gill and Henry agree with you on chapter 9 of Romans.
Am I correct in reading Calvin in the Institutes book 1 chapter 15 part 8 when he says we had free will but lost it when Adam sinned?So far this gentleman quotes Socrates and Plato a little much for my taste.

At present I am teaching myself Greek but certainly don't know enough to attempt my own interpretation of Chapter 9 of Romans or any other chapter for that matter.I will continue to check out Calvins Institutes. If there are any particular places you could reference it would be helpful.Up to the moment I have given this OP 10 hours of diligent study beginning my last entry .I think in the time that has passed that is more than a fair effort.However the deeper I dig into the Calvinist stand especially by reading in the "Institutes", the less impressed I am.I am not trying to be critical,just trying to let you know what I'm seeing so far.

I've got good news for you Bill. The Greek has already been translated into English, so you can read it yourself now.

JackRUS · Mar 29, 2006

Originally posted by Me4Him:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
OOOOHHH! You can do a word search. Now, explain to me how God doesn't get His will done when He says that "all my counsel will stand." And He says He works all things after the counsel of His will.

God's will is that not any should perish, so nobody goes to hell, WHOPPEEE !!!! [/QUOTE]LOL. Isn't Calvinism silly?!

"And He said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.
For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD.
And they, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear, (for they are a rebellious house,) yet shall know that there hath been a prophet among them.
And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.
And thou shalt speak my words unto them, whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear: for they are most rebellious.
But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee." Ez. 2:3-8

God's council is His Word, and it will stand. (Mt. 24:35) And part of His will is that we be free moral agents. But He will usher in righteousness forever someday. Until then people sin against His will, which should be evident even to Calvinists.

Just like the Jews above that sinned against His will using their own will to do so. God even commanded Ezekiel to align his will with that of God, of course showing the possibility that he could not if he so chose to. You know, like Jonah when he ran away.

When are Calvinists here going to see that the emperor has no clothes?

whatever · Mar 29, 2006

Originally posted by JackRUS:
When are Calvinists here going to see that the emperor has no clothes?

Actually He is clothed with splendor and majesty.

Bless the LORD, O my soul! O LORD my God, you are very great! You are clothed with splendor and majesty,
covering yourself with light as with a garment, stretching out the heavens like a tent.
He lays the beams of his chambers on the waters; he makes the clouds his chariot; he rides on the wings of the wind;
he makes his messengers winds, his ministers a flaming fire.
He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.
You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains.
At your rebuke they fled; at the sound of your thunder they took to flight.
The mountains rose, the valleys sank down to the place that you appointed for them.
You set a boundary that they may not pass, so that they might not again cover the earth.
You make springs gush forth in the valleys; they flow between the hills;
they give drink to every beast of the field; the wild donkeys quench their thirst.
Beside them the birds of the heavens dwell; they sing among the branches.
From your lofty abode you water the mountains; the earth is satisfied with the fruit of your work.
You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth
and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man's heart.
The trees of the LORD are watered abundantly, the cedars of Lebanon that he planted.
In them the birds build their nests; the stork has her home in the fir trees.
The high mountains are for the wild goats; the rocks are a refuge for the rock badgers.
He made the moon to mark the seasons; the sun knows its time for setting.
You make darkness, and it is night, when all the beasts of the forest creep about.
The young lions roar for their prey, seeking their food from God.
When the sun rises, they steal away and lie down in their dens.
Man goes out to his work and to his labor until the evening.
O LORD, how manifold are your works! In wisdom have you made them all; the earth is full of your creatures.
Here is the sea, great and wide, which teems with creatures innumerable, living things both small and great.
There go the ships, and Leviathan, which you formed to play in it.
These all look to you, to give them their food in due season.
When you give it to them, they gather it up; when you open your hand, they are filled with good things.
When you hide your face, they are dismayed; when you take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.
When you send forth your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the ground.
May the glory of the LORD endure forever; may the LORD rejoice in his works,
who looks on the earth and it trembles, who touches the mountains and they smoke!
I will sing to the LORD as long as I live; I will sing praise to my God while I have being.
May my meditation be pleasing to him, for I rejoice in the LORD.
Let sinners be consumed from the earth, and let the wicked be no more! Bless the LORD, O my soul! Praise the LORD!

Calvibaptist · Mar 30, 2006

Plain Old Bill,

As far as Calvin's Institutes are concerned, I read it rather quickly, not trying to do an intense study. He did quote philosophers of all stripes and quotes Augustine quite a lot. You have to remember that up until the 1900's, to be a theologian, you had to engage the philosophical views of history. If you read Jonathan Edwards, you will find that it is loaded with philosophical arguments.

Now adays, you don't have to really engage anything to call yourself a theologian. So, it makes reading theological works from the 1600's a little difficult. At least it is for me.

Calvibaptist · Mar 30, 2006

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
For Calvibaptist,
I've gone through Barnes,Henry,Gill,JFB,KJ Bible commentary,Wycliffe,The Bible Knowledge Commentary,KJ Study Bible,NKJ Study Bible,ISBE,and a few I can't remember off the top of my head.Only Gill and Henry agree with you on chapter 9 of Romans.

Albert Barnes - "The chapter, therefore, has not reference to national election, or to choice to external privileges, but has direct reference to the doctrine of the election to salvation which had been stated in Rom. 8."

Adam Clarke (takes a corporate election view) - "The Jews were rejected and reprobated; the Gentiles were chosen and called, or elected. As this is most obviously the apostle’s meaning, it is strange that any should apply his doctrine to the particular and unconditional reprobation and election of individuals."

There are obviously many different ways that many people take this passage. In another post, I believe, someone mentioned that we all have our preconcieved notions about the Bible and usually interpret in that manner. If you have a preconcieved notion that God has left salvation up to man's free-will, then you are going to interpret this passage in a way that maintains man's free will.

I would say, spend most of your time observing and interpreting the passage yourself, then go see what other people think. This is the passage that changed me from a free-willer to a calvinist (without really paying attention to any of the names).

Plain Old Bill · Mar 30, 2006

From my understanding it is chapters 9 thru 12 in Romans that go together.
I am trying to work with you guys to at least get a good look at your point of view. Now between Joseph,npeterely,and you I have been told to get my answer read Romans chapter 9,then told to only read ch9:14-21,then told to read what calvin has to say and now to put it with chapter 8.

Now I don't mind putting in the effort. I think I am giving your side a fair shot.I do think it was kind of Npetreley to not only provide us with the questions, but then after honest attempts to answer him to be ridiculed and then later he supplies his version of the only answers that would be acceptable to him.

I read Aristotle,Plato,and Sacrates when I was 17. Don't ask me why.At that age for me it was philosophy and anthropology.

In any event if you would like to continue in a serious vien let me know what you think I should look at, be inclusive.I think I will read all of the "Institutes" just so nobody can pull the wool over my eyes again.

Here is a question for you. If calvin thinks man lost his free will after Adam sinned, why did'nr man lose his free will after eve sinned?What if eve sinned and Adam did'nt?What about free will Then?

Calvibaptist · Mar 30, 2006

Bill, just so you understand. I call myself a Calvinist because that is the term that is used to describe someone who believes in TULIP. I have often said that I really don't care what John Calvin had to say. I respect him as brilliant theologian who engaged both political, social, philosophical, and theological dilemmas. I don't agree with everything he said, believed or did.

My belief system comes from what I read in the Scriptures. I tend to gather around others who believe as I do. I read MacArthur. I read Piper. I read Sproul. I read Calvin. I read Edwards. I read Spurgeon. But I don't agree with everything that all of these men say.

Please do read Calvin's Institutes. It will give you a lot of insight into the type of man that Calvin was, the type of rhetoric that was used in that time period when talking about those you disagreed with (you think my sarcasm is harsh), and the types of things that he believed. But it will give you only a little insight into what the people on this board believe. To understand that, you have to interact with us, which I think you are doing.

I would dare say that, although I feel a kinship with some of the other Calvinists on this board, there are going to be many things that we disagree on. That is because we are all imperfect humans. We won't discover the full truth until we get to heaven.

Then, and only then, will we discover that I was actually right!

(obviously, just kidding)

Plain Old Bill · Mar 30, 2006

I just spent another 6 hours studying about Calvin and calvinism.The more I learn about the man and his theology the less I am inclined in his direction.His thoughts on the perseverance of the saints and irresistable grace seem to be way off base.You all may be familiar with this site but if you have not read this please do so.

http://biblelife.org/calvinism
I am pretty much in line with this article in all five parts.You will have an understanding of my position and the why.We may never agree but we could at least have an intelligent understanding of each others views.

I think I will wait until tomorrow before attacking the "Institutes" any further.I would say in regards to the TULIP dealthere are places I find him being close....but no cigar.

npetreley · Mar 30, 2006

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
Please do read Calvin's Institutes. It will give you a lot of insight into the type of man that Calvin was, the type of rhetoric that was used in that time period when talking about those you disagreed with (you think my sarcasm is harsh), and the types of things that he believed. But it will give you only a little insight into what the people on this board believe. To understand that, you have to interact with us, which I think you are doing.

If you want to read a masterpiece on election that is equally masterful sarcasm, read Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will. It's a response to a diatribe by Erasmus. Luther gushed rhapsodic over Erasmus while simultaneously ripping his ideas on free will to shreds. I honestly don't know how Erasmus managed to maintain a will to live after having read it. Must have been predestined.

npetreley · Mar 30, 2006

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
I just spent another 6 hours studying about Calvin and calvinism.The more I learn about the man and his theology the less I am inclined in his direction. His thoughts on the perseverance of the saints and irresistable grace seem to be way off base. You all may be familiar with this site but if you have not read this please do so.

http://biblelife.org/calvinism.htm

Oh, please, let me post a URL (one that works - I fixed yours) to a site the assassinates the character of Arminius. That will go a long way toward teaching people about Arminianism. Keep reading this stuff. It will really help you get a balanced view of Calvinism.

I REALLY love the addendum at the end of the web page for your link:

Pastors Who Preach Calvinism Have Responded

Many pastors have written directly from their church website with insulting, hate mail after reading the truths presented here. These pastors are obviously not born-again, Spirit filled Christians. They are fake Christians. Calvinistic preachers are our modern day Pharisees that put Jesus on the cross. They are wolves in sheep's clothing preaching "another gospel" that the Apostle Paul warned us about. They are in the ministry for power, control and money. They are certainly destined to spend eternity in hell. Their letters have revealed their corrupt hearts to the Holy Spirit.

I especially love the ironic wording.... "They are certainly destined..."

Calvibaptist · Mar 30, 2006

Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:

http://biblelife.org/calvinism
I am pretty much in line with this article in all five parts.You will have an understanding of my position and the why.We may never agree but we could at least have an intelligent understanding of each others views.

I will read the article, Bill. Although I doubt that I will find a fair treatment from an article that is subtitled "False Doctrines of the "Pope" of Geneva."

Plain Old Bill · Mar 30, 2006

npetreley,
First thanks for fixing the URL. Second feel free to post a site which is critical of Arminius,I will be glad to go to the article you point out.In my own mind I am not an Arminian or a Calvinist.

Brother Bob · Mar 30, 2006

http://biblelife.org/calvinism.htm

I must say that Kent R. Rieske and Bible Life Ministries sure didn't think much of John Calvin!! If true?

Plain Old Bill · Mar 30, 2006

Well they go a bit overboard.But I say get to know what all of the views on a subject are,friends,enemies,and the tweeners.From my view there are hyper-calvinists,calvinists, moderate(1,2,3,4 point)calvinists.All sorts of calvinists and they like most baptists all disagree with one another it's the baptist way.The interesting point is in the whys.

Question for free willers

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