Question of degree, type, or???

[HeirofSalvation]

I would be preaching a gospel you are not familiar with.....

I am familiar with it

The Covenant is at the heart of All redemptive history.The blood of the cross,applied by The Great High Priest, on behalf of All the sanctified elect,has accomplished redemption for them.

Strictly speaking...nothing you have said here is something I would debate nor is it unique to your Calvinism or Covenant Theology.....You posted basically unchallenged truths and are, it appears, attempting to smuggle other ideas in with it. I try to pull that trick myself all the time, I know it when I see it. .

That is good news to me.Maybe....not so much to you with your failed Molinism ideas.

I doubt I would word it precisely as you did, but again, I wouldn't disagree with what you stated above...apparently, you are assuming too much. Nothing you stated is contradictory to Molinism.

Like the screwtape letters

,

It's a fiction...just a fiction.

I have no interest in these failed ideas

.

You have already stated before that you would not read "Screwtape Letters", unless you already have, and I mistook your prior statement (as you appear to mistake mine) you have no idea whether it is a "failed idea" or not. As far as Molinism goes...it is a minority view, it is also seeing a resurrgence of adherents in Evangelical circles, so depending on what you mean by "failed" you would want to take notice. I am also not dogmatic about it. I am not yet of the opinion that I understand all Soteriological truths flawlessly as that is a dangerous way to think. Some on this board do.

I will discuss the bible with those who desire to learn, and would like help.You do not .....

Has no one explained this to you? It is a debate forum....it is not your personal blog entitled: "Ask Icon". We are not here to sit at your feet and learn your inerrant decrees....for as long as you post, you will find people who disagree with you. We do learn here, but we learn through debate.

instead you appear to be content to avoid truth and play games with it....This is not a wise use of time.

Playing games?....o.k.

Study the truth instead.

What, precisely the truth is, when all things are not as cut and dry as you or I might like, is what is up for DEBATE...in a debate forum.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Without doing any reground breaking research, but solely on memory, were not Molinistic thinkers started by a Jesuit priest who was attempting to bring "free will and choice" thinking into some kind of working relationship to the sovereignty and providence of God through Christ?

It is named after Molina, as he was the one who first expressed all of its ideas in the systematic way that he did...but a lot of the key central ideas pre-date him. Some are now arguing that one of the key tenets "Middle Knowledge" or something very akin to it was expressed in the writings of the Ana-baptist Theologian Balthasar Hubmaier. So, not ALL of the ideas were unique to him. But you have a good general idea I would say.

Sort of like some sort of less than five point Calvinist?

Take Amyraldianism and add LFW...:laugh:

 

[HeirofSalvation]

At the time of Augustine, are you sure that you want to call the church back then "RCC"? What other church was there?

The non-Catholic ones that Augustine speaks of here:


The Second Vatican Council taught that non-Catholic Christians were to be recognized as “brothers” in light of their valid baptisms “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Some traditionalist Catholics look askance at this teaching, but it is worth noting that Saint Augustine also recognized that non-Catholic Christians who were baptized and recognized the resurrection of Christ were to be reckoned as “brothers.”

"Those then who tell us: You are not our brothers, are saying that we are pagans. That is why they want to baptise us again, claiming that we do not have what they can give. Hence their error of denying that we are their brothers. Why then did the prophet tell us: Say to them: You are our brothers? It is because we acknowledge in them that which we do not repeat. By not recognising our baptism, they deny that we are their brothers; on the other hand, when we do not repeat their baptism but acknowledge it to be our own, we are saying to them: You are our brothers.

If they say, “Why do you seek us? What do you want of us?” we should reply: You are our brothers. They may say, “Leave us alone. We have nothing to do with you.” But we have everything to do with you, for we are one in our belief in Christ; and so we should be in one body, under one head.

And so, dear brothers, we entreat you on their behalf, in the name of the very source of our love, by whose milk we are nourished, and whose bread is our strength, in the name of Christ our Lord and his gentle love. For it is time now for us to show them great love and abundant compassion by praying to God for them. May he one day give them a clear mind to repent and to realise that they have nothing now but the sickness of their hatred, and the stronger they think they are, the weaker they become. We entreat you then to pray for them, for they are weak, given to the wisdom of the flesh, to fleshly and carnal things, but yet they are our brothers. They celebrate the same sacraments as we, not indeed with us, but still the same. They respond with the same Amen, not with us, but still the same. And so pour out your hearts for them in prayer to God."

Saint Augustine, Ex Enarratiónibus sancti Augustíni epíscopi in psalmos (Ps 32, 29: CCL 38, 272-273).

 

[asterisktom]

The non-Catholic ones that Augustine speaks of here:


The Second Vatican Council taught that non-Catholic Christians were to be recognized as “brothers” in light of their valid baptisms “in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Some traditionalist Catholics look askance at this teaching, but it is worth noting that Saint Augustine also recognized that non-Catholic Christians who were baptized and recognized the resurrection of Christ were to be reckoned as “brothers.”

"Those then who tell us: You are not our brothers, are saying that we are pagans. That is why they want to baptise us again, claiming that we do not have what they can give. Hence their error of denying that we are their brothers. Why then did the prophet tell us: Say to them: You are our brothers? It is because we acknowledge in them that which we do not repeat. By not recognising our baptism, they deny that we are their brothers; on the other hand, when we do not repeat their baptism but acknowledge it to be our own, we are saying to them: You are our brothers.

If they say, “Why do you seek us? What do you want of us?” we should reply: You are our brothers. They may say, “Leave us alone. We have nothing to do with you.” But we have everything to do with you, for we are one in our belief in Christ; and so we should be in one body, under one head.

And so, dear brothers, we entreat you on their behalf, in the name of the very source of our love, by whose milk we are nourished, and whose bread is our strength, in the name of Christ our Lord and his gentle love. For it is time now for us to show them great love and abundant compassion by praying to God for them. May he one day give them a clear mind to repent and to realise that they have nothing now but the sickness of their hatred, and the stronger they think they are, the weaker they become. We entreat you then to pray for them, for they are weak, given to the wisdom of the flesh, to fleshly and carnal things, but yet they are our brothers. They celebrate the same sacraments as we, not indeed with us, but still the same. They respond with the same Amen, not with us, but still the same. And so pour out your hearts for them in prayer to God."

Saint Augustine, Ex Enarratiónibus sancti Augustíni epíscopi in psalmos (Ps 32, 29: CCL 38, 272-273).

OK. Good answer. Thanks. I'll save this and read more on this when I have some time.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Tom, I bogarted that particular statement from this web page...This cite appears to be a Catholic site which is trying to reach out to all of Holy Mother Church's rebellious little children (us) and bring them back into her loving arms.
http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2010/07/st-augustine-on-non-catholic-christians-as-brothers/

 

[asterisktom]

Tom, I bogarted that particular statement from this web page...This cite appears to be a Catholic site which is trying to reach out to all of Holy Mother Church's rebellious little children (us) and bring them back into her loving arms.
http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2010/07/st-augustine-on-non-catholic-christians-as-brothers/

Yes, clearly a Catholic site, I understand. But the quote is still pretty useful and interesting. But thanks anyway for the Caveat lector. ("Let the reader beware!")

 

[Iconoclast]

Hos

Quote:
I will discuss the bible with those who desire to learn, and would like help.You do not .....

Has no one explained this to you? It is a debate forum....it is not your personal blog entitled: "Ask Icon". We are not here to sit at your feet and learn your inerrant decrees....for as long as you post, you will find people who disagree with you. We do learn here, but we learn through debate.

Sure it is a debate forum......but that does not mean it is a talebearer forum.Let my words stand as I post them....not as you or anyone else re-writes them,mis-represents them...

No one needs you to say.....I think he meant to say this. If I want to say something I will.

....it is not your personal blog entitled: "Ask Icon". We are not here to sit at your feet and learn your inerrant decrees.

Everyone offers was they offer in here.I am also allowed to post what I do...correct??? No one has to read what I post. When I am asked a sincere question...I respond...is that ok with you? and ...even if it is not okay...I respond. If someone attacks me personally, or tries to undermine what I post, that is between them and God.
I do not believe we need to re-invent the wheel. We need to learn more about revealed truth.
You seem to think everything is up for debate. I do not share your point of view.Again....is that ok?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I have no problem with your above post....sure it's OK with me...you just seem to expect no rejoinders when you post, and as it is a debate forum, then simply expect dissent.

But this is why I have said what I said....and no one misquotes you:

or tries to undermine what I post, that is between them and God.

GET IT? Selah