Doubting Thomas
Active Member
But "believing" without "action" doesn't avail for salvation--"faith without works is dead". A dead faith cannot save.
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Question on Galatians 5:4 and OSAS
- Thread starter Snitzelhoff
- Start date
Hope of Glory
New Member
You're talking about faith, which is necessary for living an obedient life. Faith is necessary for rewards and crowns. Thankfully, that's not what our salvation is dependent upon. Our salvation is dependent upon the completed work of Jesus and accepting the free gift that has been offered.
The Bible doesn't say, "Believe and follow that up with actions and you will be saved."
The Bible doesn't say, "Believe and follow that up with actions and you will be saved."
James_Newman
New Member
1 John 5:13
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Faith without works is dead. Go back and read James 2. The point is that a dead, workless-"faith" cannot save.
Hear the words of Christ: "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5:28-29)
So, you see, obedient and loving works (not the "works of the Law") aren't merely for "rewards" and "crowns" but for eternal life itself. (Paul says the basically the same thing in Romans 2:5-10.) The rampant workaphobia and easy-believism so rampant in modern day Baptist circles is foreign to the thought of biblical and historical Christianity.
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
This verse is so often ripped out of context without any consideration of what the rest of John's First Epistle says on the matter. For instance, there's this:
"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments [plural]. He who says 'I know Him', and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:3-4)
And this:
"Beloved, let us love another for love is of God and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does NOT KNOW God for God is love." (1 John 4:7-8)
Of course there's a lot more: 1 John 2:24-25 2:29; 3:6-10, 14; 3:18-19; 4:20-21; 5:2-5; etc.
So, it takes a lot more than a one-time profession of faith (ie praying the sinner's prayer, etc) to reliably "know" if we are "saved" or not. We must prove our love for God and neighbor by our deeds. As Paul says in Galatians 5:6, the only thing that "avails anything" is "faith working through love" (Gal 5:6).
James_Newman
New Member
Jesus never said 'whosoever knows me shall have ever lasting life', he said believe. You have to believe first, and be born again before you can walk in fellowship with him and know him in the way that 1John is talking about. You can't tell an unregenerate sinner to keep the commandments to be saved, it won't save them and they can't keep them. It is only by being indwelt with the Holy Spirit that one can begin to walk with the Lord and be found pleasing in His sight.
Hope,
It seems that you are saying that Gods convenant does not come with any requirements of us:
Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him, he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself
Hope, It should be clear from the above referenced scripture that God can still be faithful, but still DISOWN us. So you're partially correct.
Has God changed his mind? Luke 9:26 Jesus "If anyone is ashamed of me and my words the son of man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
BIC
Stefon
It seems that you are saying that Gods convenant does not come with any requirements of us:
2 Timothy 2:11
Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him, he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself
Hope, It should be clear from the above referenced scripture that God can still be faithful, but still DISOWN us. So you're partially correct.
Has God changed his mind? Luke 9:26 Jesus "If anyone is ashamed of me and my words the son of man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
God looked for a heart that was resolved about honoring him in everything. That hasn't changed. Faithfulness means that you get back up seven times and is not destroyed. You heart never left and you do not willingly sin against him. Maintain a humble and contrite heart.
BIC
Stefon
Let's put this to the test.
Do you believe that 2+2=4?
Do you believe that George Washington was the first president of the U.S.?
Do you believe that Russia is an actual country?
I would of course argue that the last two questions are believed on faith since you weren't alive during Washington's time, and that you most likely were never on a trip to Russia.
So then, I want to to decide not to believe any of the above starting right now.
Please let us know when your complete unbelief takes effect. Thank you.
*************************************************
You see, when the Holy Spirit comes into the life of a true believer the issue is eternally settled. Just like your struggle to disbelieve what you already know without a doubt to be true, it is impossible for a true believer to stop believing in Jesus Christ.
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things." 1 John 2:19-20
One thing to always keep in mind. Paul's epistles were to be read openly in the churches that he wrote to, and were sometimes read in other churches as well. Paul also knew that not everyone in those churches were saved or he wouldn't have written the warning in Acts 20:28-31
Also, those that claim that OSAS is wrong and point out Gal. 5:4 are themselves adding the requirement of keeping the Law to stay saved just like the Jews were in Paul's time. Ironic isn't it?
Faith without works is dead. Go back and read James 2. The point is that a dead, workless-"faith" cannot save.
Hear the words of Christ: "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5:28-29)
So, you see, obedient and loving works (not the "works of the Law") aren't merely for "rewards" and "crowns" but for eternal life itself. (Paul says the basically the same thing in Romans 2:5-10.) The rampant workaphobia and easy-believism so rampant in modern day Baptist circles is foreign to the thought of biblical and historical Christianity. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]James is saying that if one is truely saved that works will follow (Eph. 2:10).
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/JamesPau.htm
And if you are arguing that one must do works of righteousness in order to be saved or to stay saved, then you are guilty of what Paul warned the Galatians of in his whole epistle to them. Titus 3:5
James_Newman
New Member
I never said that once. If you say that a Christian doesn't have to have righteousness to be or stay saved, but that righteousness will automatically come if you are saved, then by inference you do have to have works to be/stay saved, because if you don't have works then you're not saved.
Some faith does not demand works, but rather the opposite. Believing that Jesus paid the price for your eternal salvation on Calvary does not demand works, for you cannot add works to His perfect work. This faith requires that you rest in the finished work of Christ. But this should not be the extent of your faith. You should also believe that Jesus is going to reward you for your works at the judgment seat. This is the faith that demands works. If you believe this and you do not work, your faith is dead. What does it profit a man to believe that he will be judged for his works and not be moved with fear like Noah was? Or to run the race and press for the mark of the high calling, like Paul?
James 2:13-17
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
If you say you have faith in the bible, the bible says you will have judgment without mercy if you don't show mercy. If your brother is naked and hungry and you don't clothe and feed him, your faith is dead and what does it profit? You will recieve that judgment without mercy.
Some faith does not demand works, but rather the opposite. Believing that Jesus paid the price for your eternal salvation on Calvary does not demand works, for you cannot add works to His perfect work. This faith requires that you rest in the finished work of Christ. But this should not be the extent of your faith. You should also believe that Jesus is going to reward you for your works at the judgment seat. This is the faith that demands works. If you believe this and you do not work, your faith is dead. What does it profit a man to believe that he will be judged for his works and not be moved with fear like Noah was? Or to run the race and press for the mark of the high calling, like Paul?
James 2:13-17
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
If you say you have faith in the bible, the bible says you will have judgment without mercy if you don't show mercy. If your brother is naked and hungry and you don't clothe and feed him, your faith is dead and what does it profit? You will recieve that judgment without mercy.
Jack, what you are implying is that a "true believer will not doubt and will always believe and is then saved and has faith. And these are "saved" people. But then I would have to ask your definition of belief. Because in James it also states that "You believe that there is one God, good, even the Demons believe that and Shudder.
James makes a point that you can believe that God is as real as Russia, but that doesn't mean that you will care to change.
Your examples are great to show how faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see, however, it does not cover the situation of a person that believes Mother Russia exist (having never been there), but stop laying down their life for it or convince others of it's existance or live according to its customs (if these were requirements for citizenship).
Your belief at that point would be dead. Not true enough to maintain citizenship. It become a great Ideal not worth changing for. Just a thought. Obeying Jesus is complete faith in him as Lord. Belief is more than just an intellectual understanding and belief of who and what God is. If a person starts there faith with repentance but later does not desire to do so while fully aware of who God is, that persons belief has become less than that of a demon. It has NO POWER! Faith/belief can be lost.
in order to lose something, you would have needed to poses it before.
Hope of Glory
New Member
Yes. It's about inheritance. It's a family matter.
BTW, what James Newman is saying is right on the money. You're saved by "believe", not by "faith".
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
"To a hammer every problem is a nail".
In Matt 7 CHRIST's point about the Good tree not producing bad fruit - is that one must be saved to have good fruit.
But in James 2 we have ANOTHER point shown "You see then that a man is justified by works and NOT by faith alone". James is not addressing the issue of Genuine conversion being the only thing that produces good works.
James is looking at the other side of the coin. He is arguing that your current CLAIM to salvation and faith without having the matching good works are worthless if they are not currently supported by good works. He says nothing about the genuine nature of the past NOR does he argue that once saved you WILL endure faithful until the end.
But more than that - he argues that there is a kind of justification that is "by works and not by faith alone".
I believe he is speaking of "justification future" as does Romans 2:11-13 as contrasted to "Justification past" that Paul addresses in Romans 5:1-2.
In Christ,
Bob
Yes. It's about inheritance. It's a family matter.
BTW, what James Newman is saying is right on the money. You're saved by "believe", not by "faith". </font>[/QUOTE]Explain to me again of why when God said he will disown those who disown him is a not a salvation issue. Ownership is what its all about. If we claim to be apart of God and Jesus as Lord then he also as the main support of the relationship claims us when he returns.
Please explain, and don't read too much into the scripture 2Tim 2. Thanks
Do you know that you just set two of the same terms (as acceptable to God) against eachother? What are you doing?
Hope of Glory
New Member
Salvation is an event; justification is a process. I think you're confusing the two.
[Acts 16:30,31] This is the only place in the Bible that both asks and answers the question of how to be saved. The salvation experience, as explained in this verse is in what’s called the aorist tense of the verb “believe” and not by the noun “faith”, nor even by the verb “believe” in the present tense. (If you don't believe this verse, then there's a contradiction in the Bible, and the tenses in this verse are consistent in all the texts of which I am aware.)
To graph the aorist tense on a timeline, you would use a dot. It’s an event, not an ongoing action. The aorist tense can be a little dot (such as squeezing the trigger of a gun), or it can be a big dot (such as the building of the temple). You cannot undo an event.
1 Timothy 1:18-19: This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
You can make shipwreck of the faith. You cannot make shipwreck of the aorist tense of the verb “believe”. Either you believe or you don’t, and you cannot undo the action. You may change the action (in this case, you believe), but you cannot undo the fact that you did the action (in this case, you believed).
The struggle with understanding this comes when you find out that faith and works go together as shown in James 2. Some teach that this is contradictory, or that this is a requirement for being saved, or something else. There is no contradiction between James and Romans, and there are no works involved on our parts for being saved. Jesus did all that work for us!
[Acts 16:30,31] This is the only place in the Bible that both asks and answers the question of how to be saved. The salvation experience, as explained in this verse is in what’s called the aorist tense of the verb “believe” and not by the noun “faith”, nor even by the verb “believe” in the present tense. (If you don't believe this verse, then there's a contradiction in the Bible, and the tenses in this verse are consistent in all the texts of which I am aware.)
To graph the aorist tense on a timeline, you would use a dot. It’s an event, not an ongoing action. The aorist tense can be a little dot (such as squeezing the trigger of a gun), or it can be a big dot (such as the building of the temple). You cannot undo an event.
1 Timothy 1:18-19: This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
You can make shipwreck of the faith. You cannot make shipwreck of the aorist tense of the verb “believe”. Either you believe or you don’t, and you cannot undo the action. You may change the action (in this case, you believe), but you cannot undo the fact that you did the action (in this case, you believed).
The struggle with understanding this comes when you find out that faith and works go together as shown in James 2. Some teach that this is contradictory, or that this is a requirement for being saved, or something else. There is no contradiction between James and Romans, and there are no works involved on our parts for being saved. Jesus did all that work for us!
Jack,
bmerr here. I'm not sure how that would work, since it is the Lord who adds the saved to the church (Acts 2:47). Perhaps you meant "congregations". There is only one church, though there be many congregations.
Concerning Paul's warning to the elders from Ephesus in Acts 20:28-31, I could probably go along with the "grievious wolves" being a reference to various false teachers influencing the church, who were themselves lost, though perhaps having a form of godliness (2 Tim 3:5). This would be an attack from without.
But Paul goes on to say that "of your own selves", the elders from the church at Ephesus, men would arise teaching false doctrines, in order to draw disciples after themselves. This would be an attack from within.
Of course, we kon't know exactly when the the things Paul was warning about would happen, but these men were elders, propbably appointed by Paul himself, so I think it would be hard to make the case that some of these guys were not saved.
It was Paul's knowledge of the coming apostasy, (which he had by inspiration), that was the reason for his warning them of it.
Their being Christians would not prevent them from "speaking perverse things" at a later time. The Holy Spirit does not miraculously insure one's holding to the truth any more than He prevents one from committing sin.
For that to be true, I would have to be requiring men to be circumcised, which I'm not.
There were aspects of the Mosaic Law that were applicable only to the nation of Israel. These would be things like circumcision (which went all the way back to Abraham), the Levitical priesthood, Passover, sacrificial system, etc. Things like this are no longer accepted by God, since Christ did away with that system of worship when He nailed it to His cross (Col 2:14).
The rest of the Law has been in place since the creation. For example, it has always been, and will always be a sin to lie, or murder, or commit adultery/fornication, etc. Things like this carry over into, and are a part of, the New Testament in Jesus' blood, and are included in the teachings (grace of God - Tit 2:11-12) of the NT.
For the Galatians to turn to the Mosaic Law, which had been done away with, for justification, would be for them to depart, or fall from, the grace of God. They would have transgressed the doctrine of Christ, and would be without God (2 John 9).
On the other hand, they could repent, and ask forgiveness, and return to the grace of God, the doctrine of Christ, and be fine as long as they remained there.
I've got to go. Talk to you later.
In Christ,
bmerr
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In John 14 Christ said "if you love Me KEEP My Commandments" -- was Christ trying to trick His disciples into a bad path to justification?
Was/is the Word of Christ not up to par as the commandments of God -- was He merely "someone else"?
Was obedience to the Word of Christ, Commandment of Christ ever a "means of salvation" such that "Salvation by obedience" is in fact what Christ was offering in John 14?
If you take the obvious answer to the above -- which is "no" then it also applies to the way you assign part of Christ's Word as "the Mosaic Law".
If it was NEVER the means of salvation - then it was NO MORE invalid in the NT as it was in the OT to be used as a "savior".
In Galations when Paul says "Fallen from Grace" he means real grace and REAL fallen -- such that had they NOT fallen they would REMAIN under Grace.
In Christ,
Bob