Question re; Your definition/understanding of "Works" and "Grace"

[DHK]

Still waiting for the verse DHK, the one that "demands" "faith alone."

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It is faith or works. You believe or you work yourself to heaven. Which one. There are hundreds of verses like this HP. How many do you need? Two of the most popular and well known verses in the Bible, and you deny them??

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Still waiting for the verse DHK, the one that "demands" "faith alone."

 

[DHK]

Still waiting for the verse DHK, the one that "demands" "faith alone."

They all say faith alone.
None of them say faith plus works.
Once you add works you might as well add heresy. Why can't you see that? Take this simple verse:

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

We are justified by faith; not faith plus works. If you say plus works you say plus heresy, for you are reading into the Word something that is not there. Salvation is by faith alone. That is exactly what this verse teaches. There are no works in this verse, and to add to faith is a heretical teaching. Jesus said: "I am the way," not "Works is the way." I have given you Scripture after Scripture. Do you want to deny them all? All the NT??

 

[BobRyan]

In the bible only one text actually mentions "faith lone" - and that is found in James 2 - and it is preceeded by the words "NOT by".

In Romans 3 and in Romans 5 it is very clear that salvation is a "free gift". Thus all mankind may come to Christ in a mere moment and be saved.

But as we see in Romans 11, and 1Cor 9 - staying saved - persevering is NOT simply handed to you. Rather as Paul says in Phil 3 - he presses on - he strives "that I may ATTAIN to the resurrection from the dead" (speaking in that case of what the Bible calls the FIRST RESURRECTION in Rev 20).

And so also we see Christ speak of it in Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of my Father".

And as Paul says in Romans 2 "It is not the hearers of the Law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justified".

Christ says in Matt 10 that he who does not take up his CROSS and follow after Christ is not worthy of Him.

All of these texts (and many more like them) tell the reader that persevering - attaining to the FIRST resurrection - the resurrection of the righteous - is not simply handed to you. "I buffet my body and make it my slave" said Paul LEST "after preaching the Gospel to OTHERS I myself should be disqualified".

It takes EVERYTHING to serve the Lord.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

In the bible only one text actually mentions "faith lone" - and that is found in James 2 - and it is preceeded by the words "NOT by".

This is not entirely true, because:
1. The NT is written in Greek not in English.
2. The phrase you put in question, is "faith alone". Alone, like only, is an adverb, and can have many synonyms and can be written many different ways. To confine one expression to one way of writing is cultish at best, and the poorest of hermeneutics at its worst.
3. One cannot present an argument out of silence, or read into Scripture that which is not there.

In Romans 3 and in Romans 5 it is very clear that salvation is a "free gift". Thus all mankind may come to Christ in a mere moment and be saved.

Agreed

But as we see in Romans 11, and 1Cor 9 - staying saved - persevering is NOT simply handed to you. Rather as Paul says in Phil 3 - he presses on - he strives "that I may ATTAIN to the resurrection from the dead" (speaking in that case of what the Bible calls the FIRST RESURRECTION in Rev 20).

False. This is reverting back to a works based salvation which the Bible speaks nothing of. Clearly the Bible states in Rom.5:1

Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
Your argument is the same as "being justified by faith and playing with computers we have peace with God. You can read anything into that verse you want to. But the only word that is there is "faith", and thus "faith alone," not faith + playing computers--as you would have us believe.

And so also we see Christ speak of it in Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven - but he who DOES the will of my Father".

Read the context. Christ is speaking of false teachers. It has nothing to do with believers.

And as Paul says in Romans 2 "It is not the hearers of the Law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justified".

Paul is speaking of the Jews in Romans 2

Christ says in Matt 10 that he who does not take up his CROSS and follow after Christ is not worthy of Him.

Being worthy of heaven or even of Christ and being able to enter into heaven are two different things. I am not worthy either. But God, by his mercy has granted me His salvation.

All of these texts (and many more like them) tell the reader that persevering - attaining to the FIRST resurrection - the resurrection of the righteous - is not simply handed to you. "I buffet my body and make it my slave" said Paul LEST "after preaching the Gospel to OTHERS I myself should be disqualified".

Disqualified from service, but not from entering heaven. That is impossible.

It takes EVERYTHING to serve the Lord.

But you don't give everything and cannot give everything to serve the Lord. It is impossible. You are not sinless; you still sin. And as long as you still have that old nature you always will. Your last statement condemns you to hell.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Is healing a gift from God and was Naamam healed by 'works?'

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Welcome to the Baptist Board, terrence.

It will be helpful to you to read the rules, which allow only Baptists to post in the Baptist-only sections. I notice that you list your denomination as "Christian," which, in my opinion, is a bit too vague. Do you mean Disciples of Christ?

At any rate, you are more than welcome to post in the Other Christian Denominations section, as well as those open to all Christians.

Also, we'd like to get to know you a little better. So please go up to the top section Welcome to the Baptist Board, and fill us in. Give us all the juicy details you can, but you have permission to leave any skeletons in the closet.

I assume that Terrence is a member of a Church of Christ church.

 

[DHK]

Is healing a gift from God and was Naamam healed by 'works?'

No need to go off on your usual red herrings HP. Stick to the NT, and the grace that Christ displayed for us on the cross of Calvary.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[quantumfaith]

No need to go off on your usual red herrings HP. Stick to the NT, and the grace that Christ displayed for us on the cross of Calvary.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Yes! Stick with the New Testament there HP, as the Old Testament is completely meaningless. Otherwise, based upon the totality of scripture, we might be forced to honestly re-evaluate our own belief system

 

[Grace&Truth]

In Romans 3 and in Romans 5 it is very clear that salvation is a "free gift". Thus all mankind may come to Christ in a mere moment and be saved.

Bob, I'm curiouse to know what Christ saves us from in a mere moment?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

QF: Yes! Stick with the New Testament there HP, as the Old Testament is completely meaningless. Otherwise, based upon the totality of scripture, we might be forced to honestly re-evaluate our own belief system

HP: With off the wall comments like you make here, you are definitely a candidate for a re-evaluation of your belief system. The “OT completely meaningless??” You have to be kidding.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: In the bible only one text actually mentions "faith alone" - and that is found in James 2 - and it is preceeded by the words "NOT by".

HP: Interesting point indeed BR. Interersting. :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: No need to go off on your usual red herrings HP. Stick to the NT, and the grace that Christ displayed for us on the cross of Calvary.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

HP: This thread, in case you failed to notice, has to do with a passage in the OT, but even then it would not matter to you. I was just showing through that passage how the clear explicit distinction between grounds and conditions plays out. But no, you would take into consideration any explanation or illustration that would in any way run counter to your presupposition of the absolute unconditional notion of salvation that props up your failed dogma of OSAS. Oh well. Whats new??

 

[ccrobinson]

But no, you would take into consideration any explanation or illustration that would in any way run counter to your presupposition of the absolute unconditional notion of salvation that props up your failed dogma of OSAS.

Failed dogma? I wouldn't go throwing around that word "failed" if I were you. The only failure around here has been your attempt to prove that a Christian can lose their salvation. Your notion of "grounds of salvation" and "conditions of salvation" has been refuted. Continue on with your works salvation. I'll continue to serve God because he saved me, not because I'm terrified that he'll let me go if I'm not good enough.

 

[Amy.G]

Failed dogma? I wouldn't go throwing around that word "failed" if I were you. The only failure around here has been your attempt to prove that a Christian can lose their salvation. Your notion of "grounds of salvation" and "conditions of salvation" has been refuted. Continue on with your works salvation. I'll continue to serve God because he saved me, not because I'm terrified that he'll let me go if I'm not good enough.
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:applause::applause:

 

[DHK]

HP: This thread, in case you failed to notice, has to do with a passage in the OT, but even then it would not matter to you. I was just showing through that passage how the clear explicit distinction between grounds and conditions plays out. But no, you would take into consideration any explanation or illustration that would in any way run counter to your presupposition of the absolute unconditional notion of salvation that props up your failed dogma of OSAS. Oh well. Whats new??

"Oh Well. What's new??
Please do tell?
The same old; the same old.

There is no distinction between grounds and conditions of salvation. It is just a false dichotomy that you have arbitrarily set up to prop up your own unique "HP brand theology." It is unique. It is not orthodox. And if you are the only one that believes that way, setting yourself up as your own authority, then something is terribly wrong.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Your works are the grace you bestow on others.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Your notion of "grounds of salvation" and "conditions of salvation" has been refuted.
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It has? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[DHK]

Your works are the grace you bestow on others.

Where did this come from all of a sudden?
Who gave you the power to bestow grace?
Did you just convert to RCC?
It is God that bestows grace upon us, not us on others.
It is only by God's grace that we are saved, and by God's grace that we exist day by day. Grace is that undeserved favor that comes from God. We neither deserve it nor can it be earned. It is God's riches that come at Christ's expense.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Where did this come from all of a sudden?

I saw the thread, read some of the posts and thought, they are in the forest but I am not sure they see individual trees.

Who gave you the power to bestow grace?

Are you thinking of grace and salvation as being synonyms? They are not the same.

Synonyms of Grace:
1. attractiveness, charm, gracefulness, comeliness, ease. 4. kindness, kindliness, love, benignity; condescension. 5. lenity, leniency. 14. embellish, beautify, deck, decorate, ornament; enhance, honor.

Antonyms of Grace

1. ugliness. 4. animosity. 5. harshness. 14. disfigure.

All people can bestow grace or withhold grace. Forgiving another of a trespass may be an act of grace. The Amish demonstrated this to the wife of the man who murdered their, the Amish, children several years ago.[size]

Example:

It is a wonder that I have managed to stay in her good graces this long.

He apologized, but did so with bad grace.

The origin of the English word grace:

Origin:
1125–75; ME < OF < L grātia favor, kindness, esteem, deriv. of grātus pleasing

From www. Dictionary.com

Only God can give salvation. Not so with grace.

Did you just convert to RCC?

Nope, sure didn't. Been a Baptist all my life.

It is God that bestows grace upon us, not us on others.

Sorry, I bet to disagree. God does bestow grace but humans can also bestow grace, not salvation, to others. Grace means more than I see in your reply. It is not a synonym of salvation or forgiveness ... though both can show grace. As I said, only God can give salvation. But we can and must forgive each other.

It is only by God's grace that we are saved, and by God's grace that we exist day by day. Grace is that undeserved favor that comes from God. We neither deserve it nor can it be earned. It is God's riches that come at Christ's expense.

I agree with your comment on God's grace. However, people can show grace to each other as I have shown above.