Question re; Your definition/understanding of "Works" and "Grace"

[steaver]

If you "can" believe in such hypothetical occurrences, then it is an admission of belief in OSAS; that repentance is not needed right before death; that repentance for every sin committed is not needed in order to enter into heaven--thus giving way to the possibility that Jesus' atonement paid for all of our sins: past, present and future at the cross. True?

Absolutely true! :thumbsup:

Pointed questions will always reveal error if error exist. Christians should invite challenges to their views with real life scenarios. If a real life situation does not work in their model of belief they should humbly desert that belief and seek God for another answer.

I would still like to know how one can stop believing something which they have personal first hand knowledge of is an absolute truth.

What do you absolutely know for sure HP?

Do you know with absolute certainty that Jesus Christ is God?

Please give us an answer!

:wavey:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver believes that one CAN exercise faith towards Jesus Christ AND THEN God regenerates him, this AFTER turning towards God which is called repentence, not before as Calvin believed, and AFTER trusting God to save him which is called faith.

Thus, Calvin believed repentence and faith came AFTER regeneration and Steaver believes repentence and faith comes BEFORE regeneration.

Steaver: Repentence of sins and dead works is a process that follows regeneration.

HP: You have made two comments that clearly 'can be' seen as contradictory. One might be confused enough to almost believe you have left the confines of Calvinism….but we shall see. Bear in mind that the point I have made is that Calvinism is a system of necessity. We shall see just how far you escape that end.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt as to repentance and faith happening before conversion or regeneration, (in spite of your one comment that can be seen as contradictory) let me ask you Steaver if God requires them out of man to do, or if in fact they are the mere product of God doing something or giving something to man? Is man responsible for repentance and faith or does God simply grant them to one He knows is of the elect? I might ask, is God the sole cause of mans repentance and faith or is God the cause of them?

 

[BillySunday1935]

No he hasn't. That is what you want him to believe. No doubt it is what you want me to believe. You want to force upon us the belief of Calvinism. You keep telling us we are Calvinism when we keep telling you we are not for which you should be reported for. snip...

How does that feel DHK?

 

[steaver]

Giving you the benefit of the doubt as to repentance and faith happening before conversion or regeneration, (in spite of your one comment that can be seen as contradictory) let me ask you Steaver if God requires them out of man to do, or if in fact they are the mere product of God doing something or giving something to man? Is man responsible for repentance and faith or does God simply grant them to one He knows is of the elect? I might ask, is God the sole cause of mans repentance and faith or is God the cause of them?

I believe God extends His salvation to ALL and ALL are given the free-will chance to choose or reject. If one chooses to accept God's invitation this one will turn (repent) towards faith in Jesus Christ and ASK for Jesus' salvation.

Regeneration is then given as promised for God cannot lie. This person is now sealed unto the day of redemption. A new creation, one with Jesus Christ, a child of the Living God, becomes God's possession, born of God.

Then God begins sanctification of His newly born child. This will take some time, even until the end of this childs human life. This child will begin repenting of sins and dead works. This child will spend the rest of his human life repenting of sins and pressing towards the high calling he has in Jesus Christ. This child will NEVER be perfectly sinless on any given day and will fail many times, but God is faithful and will not EVER let one of His children draw back unto perdition.

Once a child of God, God makes certain ALL His children make it home.

:jesus:

 

[DHK]

How does that feel DHK?

There's a history here you are not aware of Billy. HP has been doing this for years. It is called bait and run. Notice how he accuses others of a false belief and then runs and hides by not answering the questions directed at him. He has still avoided some of the questions that both Steaver and I have asked him. But he loves to make false accusations against us. He's been doing it for years. I've just put up with it. I guess I shouldn't.

However, Billy, HP is not a pretender. He doesn't say he is a Baptist and then post like a Catholic. That is what you are doing. No Baptist on this entire board would ever post the way that you are doing. Many of your posts could have been plagiarized straight from a Catholic Website. That is abhorrent. If you want to post Catholic garbage why not go to a Catholic website and do so?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: I believe God extends His salvation to ALL and ALL are given the free-will chance to choose or reject. If one chooses to accept God's invitation this one will turn (repent) towards faith in Jesus Christ and ASK for Jesus' salvation.

HP: The problem I see is that once we hear of the gospel message, it is not ours to first ask for salvation, it is our duty to first repent and exercise faith. If one has not heard the command to repent in order to receive salvation, the message they have heard is deficient.

You cannot accept a gift of salvation, nor choose to accept or reject salvation, prior to fulfilling the conditions God has mandated for man to do in order to be saved. God has made it clear that no one will be saved antecedent to repentance. God demands man to fulfill that condition in order to place himself in a position to accept His gift. If man does not repent, no salvation will ever be granted. There is no acceptance of salvation prior to repentance and faith. God has demanded man do something antecedent to God granting salvation to man. Man can ONLY be saved subsequent to fulfilling the conditions God sets forth.

Steaver: I believe Calvin also believed that one must be regenerated in order to be capable of obeying God's commandments. Don't you also believe this way?

Or do you believe one can keep God's commandments BEFORE the Holy Spirit indwellment (regeneration)? If yes, then there is no need for Christ's sacrifice. The Law would be sufficient.

HP: Here you once again appear to flatly contradict yourself. You say on one breath that one repents and believes antecedent to regeneration, and then you try and make the case of a Calvinist that flatly contradicts what you have just stated.

And you wonder why I see a correlation at least 50% of the time between your remarks and Calvinism???? Wonder no more.

 

[steaver]

HP: The problem I see is that once we hear of the gospel message, it is not ours to first ask for salvation, it is our duty to first repent and exercise faith. If one has not heard the command to repent in order to receive salvation, the message they have heard is deficient.

How is this a problem with what I said? I never said one must first ask for salvation. One hears and one chooses. When one accepts repentence is evident in the fact that they turned from unbelief to belief. This is repent and believe. I have never heard of any born again Christian who has not ASKED Jesus to save them AS they repented and believed. Have you?

You cannot accept a gift of salvation, nor choose to accept or reject salvation, prior to fulfilling the conditions God has mandated for man to do in order to be saved. God has made it clear that no one will be saved antecedent to repentance.

As I already stated and agree with.

HP: Here you once again appear to flatly contradict yourself. You say on one breath that one repents and believes antecedent to regeneration, and then you try and make the case of a Calvinist that flatly contradicts what you have just stated.

And you wonder why I see a correlation at least 50% of the time between your remarks and Calvinism???? Wonder no more.

Read my words again.

Steaver: "I believe Calvin also believed that one must be regenerated in order to be capable of obeying God's commandments. Don't you also believe this way?"

Do you see repentence and faith in my statement? No, you do see "in order to be capable of obeying God's commandments" though. Two seperate issues. One is antecedent to salvation and the other is after, during sanctification.

Or do you believe one must first repent of all their sins before God will regenerate them?

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Or do you believe one must first repent of all their sins before God will regenerate them?

HP: Regeneration happens at salvation. Regeneration is the new birth. Certainly one must repent and exercise faith in order for salvation/regeneration to take place. If you believe regeneration and salvation are separate, where is the Scriptural evidence that they are? (Not saying you do, just uncertain where you do stand)

Calvinism places regeneration antecedent to salvation. I know of no other system of theology that does so. It only makes sense to correlate ones theology with Calvinism if in fact they believe one needs to be regenerated to fulfill the conditions God mandates. I have yet to decide what you really believe as I see evidence both ways so far.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Do you see repentence and faith in my statement? No, you do see "in order to be capable of obeying God's commandments" though. Two seperate issues. One is antecedent to salvation and the other is after, during sanctification.

HP: Here again I cannot follow you. Repentance and faith are indeed commandments of God. God requires nothing impossible for men to do. It is not because man is unable to obey God, it is because man is totally unwilling to obey God that he sins. God has granted to all moral agents a measure of faith and the ability to repent if they will. They need no regeneration to exercise what God demands of them. They simply need to exercise the ability they have already possessed but thus far have refused to exercise. Their refusal might be due to ignorance in that they might have never heard the gospel message since they sinned. All they need to respond once the gospel is presented is to voluntarily yield their will in accordance to the stated conditions. The Holy Spirit is faithful to draw when the gospel is presented, correctly that is. (and often even if it is presented incorrectly, or so I believe)

 

[steaver]

HP: Regeneration happens at salvation. Regeneration is the new birth. Certainly one must repent and exercise faith in order for salvation/regeneration to take place. If you believe regeneration and salvation are separate, where is the Scriptural evidence that they are? (Not saying you do, just uncertain where you do stand)

Calvinism places regeneration antecedent to salvation. I know of no other system of theology that does so. It only makes sense to correlate ones theology with Calvinism if in fact they believe one needs to be regenerated to fulfill the conditions God mandates. I have yet to decide what you really believe as I see evidence both ways so far.

Regeneration is salvation. They are one in the same said in two different terms.

I think you are wrong about Calvin here. I don't think Calvin ever said that regeneration and salvation are two different things. I don't know of any Christian who thinks in such a way.

Calvin believed that anyone who had been born of God (regenerated) had no choice in the matter. They heard and they believed. This is the core of Calvinism, no choice. God has already chosen those who He will grant salvation unto.

Calvin really has absolutely nothing to do with our disagreements, so I don't know why you are always shouting Calvinism.

I am free-will choice. This is totally against Calvins foundational belief.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

HP: Here again I cannot follow you. Repentance and faith are indeed commandments of God. God requires nothing impossible for men to do. It is not because man is unable to obey God, it is because man is totally unwilling to obey God that he sins. God has granted to all moral agents a measure of faith and the ability to repent if they will. They need no regeneration to exercise what God demands of them. They simply need to exercise the ability they have already possessed but thus far have refused to exercise.

Tell me this HP, can you keep God's commandments WITHOUT the Holy Spirits indwelling help?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

No man, unless the Holy Spirit has completely withdrawn Himself, is devoid of the help of the Holy Spirit. We are receiving help when He convicts our hearts via our conscience or enlightens our heart to salvations plan. One thing is for certain, God has given everyman enough ability or help enough to repent and exercise faith if they will. The Spirit will never indwell a person, in a salvic sense, until the individual first complies with the conditions of salvation to repent and exercise faith.

It is not that one ‘cannot’ obey the law prior to being saved, it is that he ‘will not.’ Man is not a necessitated sinner, he is a willing rebel. If God blames man for his condition it is proof that he could have done something other than he did but refused to do so. God made that clear many times, but the clearest I know of is when he spoke to Cain after killing his brother.

 

[steaver]

No man, unless the Holy Spirit has completely withdrawn Himself, is devoid of the help of the Holy Spirit............

NO HP! Do not change the question and then give an answer to your own.

We are speaking about regeneration, born of God, Spirit giving birth to spirit, a new creation. We are not speaking of the Holy Spirit's overall work in the world and in the lives of the lost drawing them unto Jesus.

Stay on the point. Can one keep God's commandments without the Holy Spirit indwellment?

I caution you to remember Paul's testimony before he was regenerated (Ro 7)

One thing is for certain, God has given everyman enough ability or help enough to repent and exercise faith if they will. The Spirit will never indwell a person, in a salvic sense, until the individual first complies with the conditions of salvation to repent and exercise faith.

We already went over this and I said we agree. Now back to my question.

It is not that one ‘cannot’ obey the law prior to being saved, it is that he ‘will not.’ Man is not a necessitated sinner, he is a willing rebel.

Paul disagrees with you;

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


Paul's Answer......

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin


Paul blames his sinful nature, he does not blame God. He does declare that without Jesus Christ and His salvation/regeneration he could not obey the Law no matter how much he willed to do so.

So back to my question to you HP. Can one keep God's commandments WITHOUT the Holy Spirit indwellment? What is your answer?

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Regeneration is salvation. They are one in the same said in two different terms.

I think you are wrong about Calvin here. I don't think Calvin ever said that regeneration and salvation are two different things. I don't know of any Christian who thinks in such a way.

Maybe I have spoken in haste. I should ask you, do you believe regeneration and salvation are two seperate things?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Maybe I have spoken in haste. I should ask you, do you believe regeneration and salvation are two seperate things?

HP: I view regeneration as the cleansing from sins that are past. Salvation is more than that, but regeneration happens simultaneous with gaining salvation.

Tell me your belief on regeneration and salvation. Are they separate issues? If so, where does Scripture set such an idea or present them as different issues? I would certainly not find a hint of the Calvinistic notion of regeneration in Scripture. Scripture never presents God having to grant to men special grace in the sense of abilities to repent or exercise faith. God calls on sinners everywhere to repent. If something is commanded as a universal command as repentance clearly is, that in and of itself is proof that all possess as sinners that which is needed to carry out those commands to repent and believe. A gracious opportunity to hear the gospel is all that is lacking for a sinner to be able to be saved.

 

[DHK]

It is not that one ‘cannot’ obey the law prior to being saved, it is that he ‘will not.’

A difference in semantics perhaps, different wording of saying the same things.
Whatever HP, your statement makes you a Calvinist after all!! :laugh:

 

[steaver]

HP: Tell me your belief on regeneration and salvation. Are they separate issues?

I already said,

Originally Posted by steaver
Regeneration is salvation. They are one in the same said in two different terms.

HP: I view regeneration as the cleansing from sins that are past.

Do not forget the Spirit giving birth to spirit, a new creation, Christ in you, My sheep hear my voice and they know Me and follow Me.

I would certainly not find a hint of the Calvinistic notion of regeneration in Scripture. Scripture never presents God having to grant to men special grace in the sense of abilities to repent or exercise faith. God calls on sinners everywhere to repent. If something is commanded as a universal command as repentance clearly is, that in and of itself is proof that all possess as sinners that which is needed to carry out those commands to repent and believe. A gracious opportunity to hear the gospel is all that is lacking for a sinner to be able to be saved.

Yes, as you already said at least four or five times in this thread alone and I already agreed over and over.

I am awaiting your response to post #133

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: A difference in semantics perhaps, different wording of saying the same things.
Whatever HP, your statement makes you a Calvinist after all!!

HP: I take no offense at you calling me a Calvinist other than nothing that I have said or believe would serve as evidence that I am. If you can logically show me what I have said that would support even one letter of ‘tulip’ fire away.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver, you have not answered my questions in the second paragraph of post #122 that I can find. You posted my questions in #124 but did not address the questions.

Steaver: I believe Calvin also believed that one must be regenerated in order to be capable of obeying God's commandments. Don't you also believe this way?

Or do you believe one can keep God's commandments BEFORE the Holy Spirit indwellment (regeneration)? If yes, then there is no need for Christ's sacrifice. The Law would be sufficient.

HP: I asked you about the stark contradiction of both believing and not believing that repentance and faith precedes salvation, but have not seen where you have freed yourself from that contradiction in the least.

I do not feel compelled to tackle your post on the 7th chapter of Romans when you have failed to clear up the contradiction that have already been sited. You cannot imply what you do in the quote above and tell me repentance and faith precedes salvation. You either have to believe one way or the other. If you tell me you believe one way and not the other, you need to admit you were wrong with the one of the ideas you set forth that contradicts the way you now feel is the truth. Which is it Steaver? Can a sinner, prior to salvation and apart from coercion by God, obey the commands of God to repent and exercise faith? Does God have to do something to enable man to obey his commands prior to the new birth?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Or do you believe one can keep God's commandments BEFORE the Holy Spirit indwellment (regeneration)? If yes, then there is no need for Christ's sacrifice. The Law would be sufficient.

HP: This is simply and absolute nonsense. Steaver tries to conclude something which the premise he sets forth simply does not support in the least. Once one sins, no amount of obedience on our part could ever atone for the least on sin committed. If the whole world was living according to the law, yet had once sinned, they would all still need a Savior, a sacrifice for the sin they had committed. Steaver’s conclusion is baseless and off the charts dead wrong.