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Question to the GES: Deity of Christ

Open Poll: Can a lost man be born again while consciously rejecting His Deity?

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 8.8%

  • No

    Votes: 30 88.2%

  • I'm Not Sure

    Votes: 1 2.9%
  • Total voters
    34
  • Poll closed .
W

Watchman

New Member
I can see your point Lazarus. The apostles when they first came to Him referred to Him as "The Son of Joseph" (John Chapter 1).
But consider the original question:
Can a lost man be born again while consciously rejecting His Deity?
Such a lost person has a Jesus that is false and cannot save him. I have often wondered how much a person does really need to know, but however much a person does need to know to be saved, I am convinced that the Spirit of God will lead them into further truth, and not error. Those who have not really been born of God?-Well, they are susceptible to whatever whim of doctrine comes along.
But the man in THIS case is "consciously rejecting" His diety. Isn't that like (In the Old Testament) coming to God with "Strange Fire?"
What who have here is a man with an idea that Jesus was a mere man, but He can save me. Also consider, what if you replace "mere man" in the last sentense with...well, whatever.
 
L

Lazarus

New Member
Ephesians 1:4-5
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

I think the better question would be, was a saved man really ever lost.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So if God draw's a man to Jesus then that man will know that Jesus is the Son of God. That the blood that Jesus shed on the cross paid his sin debt. Only the devine blood of Diety has this power.

So, no, I don't think a lost man can be born again while consciously rejecting the Deity of Christ. For by rejecting the Deity of Christ he is denying the blood of Christ.
 
H

Humblesmith

Member
What God has clearly expected us to believe in order to be saved, and not deny, is that Jesus is 100% God. Anyone who understands this doctrine and denies it is not a Christian.

Actually, this whole question of "How much does someone have to believe to be saved today?" has had relatively little written about it. The only one I know of is in Geisler's "Systematic Theology" Vol. 3. At the end of the book, he spends a whole chapter exploring every aspect of this question in detail. Once you get deep into the question, you find a series of sub-questions and different aspects. This book sorts them all out and explains the orghodox position that believing in Jesus deity is necessary.
 
L

Lou Martuneac

New Member
Hodges Dcumented

Mr.M said:
Thanks and please take that statement simply as a qualifier for the sake of getting to the crux of the debate.
Click to expand...
Hi Mr. M:

I understood why you used the qualifier, and I am fine with that.

Below are links directly to the two part series by Zane Hodges where you will be able to read in his own words how he arrives at his "Crossless" interpretation of the gospel.

BTW, "Crossless" does not even go far enough in defining the strange interpretation of the Gospel. Hodges eliminates everything from what a lost must believe for salvation with only one exception. The ONLY thing lost men need to believe is Jesus if the Giver of eternal life, and they are saved.

The following are from Part 2 of Hodges' series, How to Lead People to Christ.

"In recent years I have become aware of a way of presenting the gospel invitation that troubles me. I believe I have heard it from my earliest years, and I admit it didn’t really bother me for a long time. Now it does."

"I have heard people say this: 'In order to be saved you must believe that Jesus died on the cross.' In the context of our present discussion, I mean that this is their summary of the requirement of faith. It is not just one item, among others, to be believed. Whenever I hear that nowadays, I get extremely uncomfortable."
Click to expand...
What this, where Hodges says anything beyond believing God's offer of eternal life is "excess baggage."

They are saved when they understand God’s offer of eternal life through Jesus and believe it. That’s when people are saved. And that’s the only time when people are saved. All of the excess baggage that we bring into our encounter with unsaved sinners is just that, excess baggage!
Click to expand...
Hodges mean the cross, the resurrection, His deity are "excess baggage." The implication is clear, Hodges believes these things constitute false additions and therefore, creates a false gospel.

Here are the links:
How to Lead People to Christ, Part 1

How to Lead People to Christ, Part 2

You might also read-
A Response to Zane Hodges: How to Lead A Person to Christ, Part 1 & 2
 
L

Lou Martuneac

New Member
Lazarus said:
Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

You must Believe in your Heart the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus to be saved.

Pretty simple concept really!
Click to expand...
You would think so, but the "Crossless" advocates redefine and twist this passage to suit their interpretation of the Gospel. Zane Hodges, for an example, would refer to what you are claming as "extra-baggage."


LM
 
L

Lou Martuneac

New Member
Update on Deity Question: Response, sort of

Greetings:

The defining question below was primarily directed to Zane Hodges, Bob Wilkin, John Niemela, Jeremy Myers, Antonio da Rosa and any advocate of the position on the Gospel coming from the Grace Evangelical Society (GES).

Can a lost man be born again while
consciously denying the Deity of Jesus Christ?
​

Thus far only da Rosa has responded to the question at my blog. Antonio is a young man who is a very passionate apologist for Zane Hodges and the GES. He has a widely known reputation for recklessness in his comments and is often banned and/or censured at closely moderated sites around the Christian blogosphere.

First, da Rosa posted a hit piece that I had to remove because of its nature.

Second, when da Rosa did attempt a reply it was with a NON-answer. Instead he opted to answer with a question. He tries to redirect the discussion away from the defining question on the Deity of Jesus Christ because he does not want to deal with it from his theological platform. Antonio would have done better had he chosen to ignore the question entirely.

Here is another article for your consideration. It is written by a former member of the GES and is a reaction to the “Crossless” gospel being taught by Zane Hodges. This is a continuing multi-part series. The title is: The Tragedy of the Crossless Gospel, Part 1 & 2.

This first article in the series appears under the SPRING 2007 journal, third item down. Part 2 of this series is under the SUMMER 2007 journal and is fourth down in the set.

Click on these and you can download them in PDF. These are important articles and are well worth reading and sharing with others.

I am hopeful that unsuspecting believers across a wide spectrum of evangelical Christianity are put on notice to beware of this position from Hodges and the GES, which is the most extreme form of a reductionist Gospel I have ever encountered.


LM
 
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L

Lou Martuneac

New Member
Fixed the BUNGLED Question

To All:

At the beginning of this thread I just realized I bungled the defining question on the Deity of Christ.

The question is primarily directed to the advocates of the "Crossless" gospel and should appear as follows.


Can a lost man be born again while
consciously denying the Deity of Jesus Christ
if he believes in Jesus for eternal life?​


LM
 
L

Lou Martuneac

New Member
Important Development

To All:

At the Grace Evangelical Society blog Bob Wilkin has responded to the OPEN LETTER to the Free Grace Community.

The core of the debate is the belief by Zane Hodges and Bob Wilkin that the ONLY thing a lost man must believe is that “Jesus is the Giver of eternal life” and he is born again.

This interpretation of the Gospel has come to be known as the “Crossless” gospel.

Some of the “Crossless” gospel advocates also believe that a lost man can consciously reject and deny the deity of Jesus Christ and still be born again if he believes Jesus will give him eternal life. For details please read, The Deity of Christ: A Defining Question to the Grace Evangelical Society

I am happy to discuss these issues here as well.


LM
 
L

Lou Martuneac

New Member
Deny Him, but Still Receive Him

To All:

At the Grace Evangelical Society blog Bob Wilkin has responded to the OPEN LETTER to the Free Grace Community.

The core of the debate is the belief by Zane Hodges and Bob Wilkin that the ONLY thing a lost man must believe is that “Jesus is the Giver of eternal life” and he is born again.

This interpretation of the Gospel has come to be known as the “Crossless” gospel.

Some of the “Crossless” gospel advocates also believe that a lost man can consciously reject and deny the deity of Jesus Christ and still be born again if he believes Jesus will give him eternal life. For details please read, The Deity of Christ: A Defining Question to the Grace Evangelical Society

I am happy to discuss these issues here as well.


LM
 
L

Lou Martuneac

New Member
Update on the "Crossless" gospel Controversy

To All:

I thought this would be a good time for an overview of the current debate being waged at my blog and the Grace Evangelical Society blog. This is a synopsis of the issues in the “Crossless” gospel debates and I feel this would be a good transitional piece for over the holiday weekend.

The following is a slightly edited version of a note I just posted at the pro-“Crossless” gospel blog, UnAshamed of Grace . Antonio da Rosa administers that blog. Antonio is one of the most vocal, emotionally charged and spiritually immature advocates of the “Crossless” gospel you will find anywhere in the blogosphere.

{Antonio da Rosa deleted my post and one from another man, which is da Rosa'a standard practice when he has to bury some of the most disturbing aspects of their theology and/or practices. He is often banned and/or reprimanded at blogs for this and other poor choices in behavior.}​


On this issue there is no doubt that Antonio and Jeremy Myers (GES staff member) have checked out on Scripture. They not only have reduced the Gospel to a message that has little resemblance to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but they have undermined His deity with the twisting of His titles.

When my book on Lordship Salvation came out I warned Antonio ( and other GES men)not to get too cozy with me. I purposely did NOT quote Hodges and even in my book gave a warning to my LS readers about Hodges. I saw the signs of this radical departure from orthodoxy as far back as 11 years ago. That is why I kept my distance.

Once I finally went ahead with public thoughts and posts at my blog on Zane Hodges and his interpretation of the Gospel, which is the official position of the GES, it set off this months long open debate. The one disappointment is that these men are never going to be genuine or transparent. Their doctrine has come under intense scrutiny and they are having are hard time dealing with it. They fall back to what they feel are the safe mantras and will not deviate from them.

The acceptance of the teaching of Zane Hodges on the Gospel has thoroughly corrupted their view of the Scriptures. They view the Gospel of John such single-mindedness that for them it trumps and negates the balance of the Bible whenever it touches on the Gospel and/or salvation. To make matters worse they have badly misinterpreted and skewed John’s Gospel.

Now, their egregious errors on the Gospel have come to light. Their view is now under intense scrutiny and I am finding that many who had little idea of just far they have gone doctrinally astray are seeing it.

Readers have also been able to witness the evasion and dodging of the deity of Christ questions. A few notable exceptions have admitted that under their system a man who consciously denies the deity of Christ can be born again only by believing in the name of Jesus for eternal life. At the GES blog I have gained more admissions to this disturbing fact that is inherent with their interpretation of the Gospel.

For the advocates of the “Crossless” gospel a Jehovah's Witness, who clings to his heretical beliefs about the deity of Jesus, can be born again under their system of believing in the name of Jesus, who for the JW, is anything but deity. William Fiess and Alvin at the GES blog have affirmed this position. This is no hypothetical situation; it is real and reveals one of the most egregious extremes coming from the GES on the Gospel.

There is no doubt Antonio da Rosa and Jeremy Myers take the same position, their message demands it, but they will NOT acknowledge it or ewven address a question about the diety of Christ if it involves their belief on the Gospel. Jeremy is especially unwilling to do so because from his GES position, that admission would be catastrophic for the GES, which has already lost a great many members over this issue.

Furthermore, I have been in contact with Bob Wilkin, who has written me several times, but has not yet replied to a proposal I have made to him to have the public debate on the doctrine of the “Crossless” gospel he has publicly called for. Once I offered to help organize that debate he stopped replying. I trust and asked him if I can expect to from him by Tuesday. I have been updating this exchange at my blog.

There is new set of articles coming to my blog shortly after the holiday weekend. These articles will raise the level of debate on their interpretation of the Gospel. The men (Jeremy, Antonio, Wilkin, et al.) who hold to the position coming from Zane Hodges and the GES will have much to be called to account for.


LM
 
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Aaron

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
What did you know of your parents when you were born naturally? Yet you came to know them very well as you grew.

It's no different. Paul said if one will confess with his mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in his heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, he will be saved. There's a lot of room there for growth.
 
L

Lou Martuneac

New Member
The Heart of It

Aaron said:
What did you know of your parents when you were born naturally? Yet you came to know them very well as you grew.

It's no different. Paul said if one will confess with his mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in his heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, he will be saved. There's a lot of room there for growth.
Click to expand...
Aaron:

Let's get to the heart of it; shall we?

Can a lost man be born again, while consciously denying the deity of Christ, if he believes in the name Jesus for eternal life?​


LM
 
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