questioning eternal security

[37818]

I am not aware of anybody on this thread teaching salvation by works. I gave you 15 of 57 "believe" present participles which all teach that the kind of faith which saves is "continuous faith." John 3:16 is the best known. Its ignored present participle teaches that whosoever "continuously" believeth should have everlasting life.

In Ephesians 2:8 the gift is being "saved."

 

[MMDAN]

His sheep have eternal security because His sheep keep on hearing His voice and keep on following Him.

His sheep keep on hearing and following because they truly are His sheep in contrast with unbelievers who are not His sheep. (John 10:26)

 

[MMDAN]

In Ephesians 2:8 the gift is being "saved."

Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God.
(AMPC)

 

[Craigbythesea]

Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God.
(AMPC)

Baptist fundamentalists very frequently quote this verse but they very seldom, if ever, quote it in context creating an erroneous interpretation of it. In all of Ephesians chapter two Paul is teaching the Gentile believers in Christ that although they are called “the uncircumcision” by the Jews, Christ Jesus has “broken down the dividing wall, that is, the hostility” between the Gentiles and the Jews having in his flesh made both groups into one. Therefore, the Gentiles have no need to be circumcised or to keep the Law in order to be saved. Indeed, they have been saved through faith rather than by being circumcised and keeping the Law and performing the works required in the Law.

Therefore, Ephesians chapter two is not a polemic against the need to do what is good; it is a polemic against the need to be circumcised and to perform the works required in the Law. Indeed, Paul uses the word circumcision 23 times in 20 verses. Furthermore it is not a polemic against what James taught, “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone,” but rather the teaching of James is a polemic against the denial of human responsibility.

 

[Blank]

Here’s my go to verse…

Philippians 1:6 NKJV
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

 

[MMDAN]

Baptist fundamentalists very frequently quote this verse but they very seldom, if ever, quote it in context creating an erroneous interpretation of it. In all of Ephesians chapter two Paul is teaching the Gentile believers in Christ that although they are called “the uncircumcision” by the Jews, Christ Jesus has “broken down the dividing wall, that is, the hostility” between the Gentiles and the Jews having in his flesh made both groups into one. Therefore, the Gentiles have no need to be circumcised or to keep the Law in order to be saved. Indeed, they have been saved through faith rather than by being circumcised and keeping the Law and performing the works required in the Law.

Therefore, Ephesians chapter two is not a polemic against the need to do what is good; it is a polemic against the need to be circumcised and to perform the works required in the Law. Indeed, Paul uses the word circumcision 23 times in 20 verses. Furthermore it is not a polemic against what James taught, “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone,” but rather the teaching of James is a polemic against the denial of human responsibility.

Those who promote salvation by works/works righteousness will typically try to explain away Ephesians 2:8,9 by saying Paul was merely speaking about specific works of the law, but not works in general. The end result is saved by “these” works (good works) and just not “those” works (works of the law) but that argument is bogus.

In Ephesians 2:10, Paul went on to say that we are created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. Elsewhere, Paul said that it's not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5). Paul also said that He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. (2 Timothy 1:9). Paul NEVER said that we are saved by faith and works of any kind.

In regard to James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

 

[Craigbythesea]

Those who promote salvation by works/works righteousness will typically try to explain away Ephesians 2:8,9 by saying Paul was merely speaking about specific works of the law, but not works in general. The end result is saved by “these” works (good works) and just not “those” works (works of the law) but that argument is bogus.

In Ephesians 2:10, Paul went on to say that we are created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. Elsewhere, Paul said that it's not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5). Paul also said that He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. (2 Timothy 1:9). Paul NEVER said that we are saved by faith and works of any kind.

In regard to James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

As wrote, “Baptist fundamentalists very frequently quote this verse but they very seldom, if ever, quote it in context creating an erroneous interpretation of it.” And in this post, you are ignoring the context, which is the teaching of the Jews that one must keep the Law, and circumcision in particular, in order to be saved. And in his epistle to the Romans, Paul writes,

3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

3:28. For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law.

And in his epistle to the Galatians, Paul writes,

2:15. We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;
16. yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law.

Eph. 2:10. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

Yes, we were created in Christ Jesus for good works, but this verse says nothing at all about the good works that we performed before we were saved or the part that they played in our salvation.

Furthermore, the doctrine of justification by faith is absent in the gospels and Acts, but salvation by works is expressly taught in the Gospels.

Luke 18:18. A certain ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
19. Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.
20. You know the commandments: “You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and mother.’”
21. He replied, “I have kept all these since my youth.”
22. When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “There is still one thing lacking. Sell all that you own and distribute the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.”
23. But when he heard this, he became sad; for he was very rich. (Compare Matt. 19:16-30; Mark 10:17-31; Luke:10-25-34)

Please see the recent (no more than 40 years old) exegetical commentaries on the Greek text of Ephesians that take into account the findings of the recent conservative evangelical research on the Greek text of Ephesians (Cohick, 2020; Winger, 2015; Arnold, 2010; Hoehner, 2002; Lincoln, 1990; Bruce, 1984).

In regard to James 2:24, James is using the word “justified” here to mean, “To be found in the right, be free of charges,” to be “vindicated.” (BDAG lexicon, page 249). Hence,

James 2:24. You see that a person is”found to be in the right and free of all charges,” judiciously found to be innocent, “vindicated” by works and not by faith alone.

Moo, Second Edition, 2021; Giese, 2021; McKnight, 2011; McCartney, 2009; Blomberg and Kamell, 2008; Moo, 2000; Johnson, 1995, Martin, 1988; Davids, 1982; Laws, 1980; Adamson, 1976; Reicke, 1964; Ropes, 1916; and Mayor, 1913 in their commentaries on the Greek text of James all agree with what I have stated above, and disagree with your erroneous view.

I own and have here in my study all of the commentaries that I have cited in this post, and I can thus provide direct quotes from any or all of them as may be required.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NRSV)

 

[MMDAN]

As wrote, “Baptist fundamentalists very frequently quote this verse but they very seldom, if ever, quote it in context creating an erroneous interpretation of it.” And in this post, you are ignoring the context, which is the teaching of the Jews that one must keep the Law, and circumcision in particular, in order to be saved. And in his epistle to the Romans, Paul writes,

3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

3:28. For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law.

And in his epistle to the Galatians, Paul writes,

2:15. We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;
16. yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law.

Eph. 2:10. For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.

Yes, we were created in Christ Jesus for good works, but this verse says nothing at all about the good works that we performed before we were saved or the part that they played in our salvation.

If good works played a part in our salvation, then Paul would have stated that we are saved by grace through faith and good works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and good works in Romans 5:1 but that is not what Paul said. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "work of faith" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses. (Leviticus 19:18)

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Now please explain to me which good works could a Christian accomplish which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18) So, when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law.

Furthermore, the doctrine of justification by faith is absent in the gospels and Acts, but salvation by works is expressly taught in the Gospels.

In Luke 7:50, we read - Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.” Not your faith and works. Also, in Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 what is the one requirement that results in receiving eternal life? BELIEVES. In Acts 4:4; 5:14; 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18 what is the one condition what results in salvation? BELIEVES/FAITH. What happened to works?

Luke 18:18. A certain ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
19. Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.
20. You know the commandments: “You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and mother.’”
21. He replied, “I have kept all these since my youth.”
22. When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “There is still one thing lacking. Sell all that you own and distribute the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.”
23. But when he heard this, he became sad; for he was very rich. (Compare Matt. 19:16-30; Mark 10:17-31; Luke:10-25-34)

In regard to Luke 18:18, Jesus showed the rich young ruler how short he falls of keeping even the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37) The rich young ruler confidently and (self-righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation.

The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). He went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. If keeping the commandments is the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - "keep the commandments and you will be saved," yet instead, Paul said - "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and your household."

Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Acts 15:11; Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:5-9; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Please see the recent (no more than 40 years old) exegetical commentaries on the Greek text of Ephesians that take into account the findings of the recent conservative evangelical research on the Greek text of Ephesians (Cohick, 2020; Winger, 2015; Arnold, 2010; Hoehner, 2002; Lincoln, 1990; Bruce, 1984).

And? This is supposed to change my mind and get me to trust in works for salvation instead of Jesus Christ alone? Not a chance.

CONTINUED..

 

[MMDAN]

In regard to James 2:24, James is using the word “justified” here to mean, “To be found in the right, be free of charges,” to be “vindicated.” (BDAG lexicon, page 249). Hence,

James 2:24. You see that a person is”found to be in the right and free of all charges,” judiciously found to be innocent, “vindicated” by works and not by faith alone.

Moo, Second Edition, 2021; Giese, 2021; McKnight, 2011; McCartney, 2009; Blomberg and Kamell, 2008; Moo, 2000; Johnson, 1995, Martin, 1988; Davids, 1982; Laws, 1980; Adamson, 1976; Reicke, 1964; Ropes, 1916; and Mayor, 1913 in their commentaries on the Greek text of James all agree with what I have stated above, and disagree with your erroneous view.

I own and have here in my study all of the commentaries that I have cited in this post, and I can thus provide direct quotes from any or all of them as may be required.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NRSV)

Well, I disagree with your erroneous view of James 2:24 that man is accounted as righteous by works in contradiction to Romans 4:2-6. None of your biased commentaries will ever convince me otherwise. Instead of allowing fallible man to interpret the Bible for you why don't you try reading James 2 in context and properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

The Greek word for justified is "dikaioo": - Strong's #1344 - δικαιόω - Old & New Testament Greek Lexical Dictionary - StudyLight.org

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

*Fits the context.

James 2:24 - You see that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works and not by (an empty profession of faith/dead faith) that remains alone "barren of works." (James 2:14)

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

*Fits the context.

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however, is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. *Perfect Harmony*

Conclusion: Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26).

*Jesus Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Jesus Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

Scripture trumps commentaries.

 

[David Lamb]

Is it your belief that Jesus forgot to read Paul’s epistles and erroneously believed that Philip, while still dead in his sins, could obey Him and place his faith in Him setting an example for us to also obey Him?

Luke 18:18. A certain ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
19. Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.
20. You know the commandments: “You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and mother.’”
21. He replied, “I have kept all these since my youth.”
22. When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “There is still one thing lacking. Sell all that you own and distribute the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.”
23. But when he heard this, he became sad; for he was very rich. (Compare Matt. 19:16-30; Mark 10:17-31; Luke:10-25-34)

Sorry, but what has Philip got to do with it? Luke 18:18 doesn't name the "certain ruler," and the disciple Philip isn't mentioned in the passage you quoted.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Sorry, but what has Philip got to do with it? Luke 18:18 doesn't name the "certain ruler," and the disciple Philip isn't mentioned in the passage you quoted.

You are incorrectly associating my words about Philip with Luke 18, but I can see how that incorrect association took place. Actually, my words about Philip were addressed to JesusFan in his post #186 in which he asked Van, “how can a spiritually dead sinner have inherit saving faith, as that faith must be granted to us by God, so we get NO credit for anything when God saves us?” Although his question was directed to Van, I answered the question by writing,

This post is an excellent example of the erroneous drivel that we get from people who lack even a very basic knowledge of the Bible and yet audaciously attempt to teach it to people who have at least read it!

John 14:11. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; but if you do not, then believe me because of the works themselves. (NRSV)

John 14:11. πιστεύετέ μοι ὅτι ἐγὼ ἐν τῷ πατρὶ καὶ ὁ πατὴρ ἐν ἐμοί · εἰ δὲ μή, διὰ τὰ ἔργα αὐτὰ πιστεύετε. (SBL Greek text)

The Greek verb πιστεύω (believe) is the cognate verb of the Greek noun πίστις (faith). In John 14:11, the verb πιστεύω (believe) is in the imperative mood—the mood used to express commands. Jesus is commanding Philip to have faith in Him (Jesus). Therefore, we know from this passage of Scripture that having faith in Jesus is our responsibility just as it was Philip’s responsibility. Those persons who choose to obey Jesus’ command to have faith in Him are saved from their sins. Those persons who choose to not obey Jesus’ command to have faith in Him are NOT saved from their sins.


Dave G, in his post #188, wrote in response,

"Not according to more of God's word and in other places it isn't, Craig:

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; (Philippians 1:29 )

" Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." ( Hebrews 11:1 ).


Paul made it a special point to tell God's elect that even their faith, if those that professed to believe indeed had and have it, is of God...His gift to them.
That it was given to them, in the behalf of Christ, even to believe on Him;
That their faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen.


The evidence, my friend, of God's work in a person and on behalf of His mercy towards them."​

To these words by Dave G, I replied,

"Is it your belief that Jesus forgot to read Paul’s epistles and erroneously believed that Philip, while still dead in his sins, could obey Him and place his faith in Him setting an example for us to also obey Him?"

The Greek verb πιστεύω (believe) is the cognate verb of the Greek noun πίστις (faith). In John 14:11, the verb πιστεύω (believe) is in the imperative mood—the mood used to express commands. Jesus is commanding Philip to have faith in Him (Jesus). Therefore, we know from this passage of Scripture that having faith in Jesus is our responsibility just as it was Philip’s responsibility. Those persons who choose to obey Jesus’ command to have faith in Him are saved from their sins. Those persons who choose to not obey Jesus’ command to have faith in Him are NOT saved from their sins.

Furthermore, Philip was at this time an unbeliever, proving that unbelievers can have faith in Jesus for salvation.​

 

[Dave G]

"Is it your belief that Jesus forgot to read Paul’s epistles

No, it is not.
Since God authored every word that Paul wrote to the churches, then the Lord Jesus knew every word before they were written.

and erroneously believed that Philip, while still dead in his sins, could obey Him and place his faith in Him setting an example for us to also obey Him?"

The Lord Jesus, being God in the flesh, doesn't commit error.
He knew that Phillip, for example, would not and could not "place his faith in Him" without God Himself performing the miraculous acts of opening Phillip's understanding ( Luke 24:45 ) and granting to him the ability to "see" and "hear" His words.

Whether or not that sets any example is irrelevant, my friend, since God's word teaches that man's will is in complete and utter bondage to sin ( Romans 1, Romans 2, Romans 3, Psalms 10, Psalms 14 and many other places ). Even the Pharisees, who were so zealous for the God that they thought they knew, were condemned by the Lord Jesus as being completely unwilling to come to Him, that they might have life ( John 5:40 ).

Except God be gracious to anyone... no one, left to themselves, would ever seek the Lord.

 

[Dave G]

Therefore, we know from this passage of Scripture that having faith in Jesus is our responsibility just as it was Philip’s responsibility.

I'm sorry, but again I disagree.
Based on what you've been writing, I conclude that when you read the Scriptures for yourself, that's what you see.
I can also tell you that as a young believer that had not read and understood much of God's word until relatively ( I'll be 47 years old in the Lord this May ) recently, so did I.

What I now see, after over 20 years of God teaching me through His every word, is much different.
I see true faith, the kind that only God's people have, as being a gift given to His elect ( Ephesians 2:8 );
A gift that Jesus Christ Authored and Finished for them ( Hebrews 12:2 ), and that believers then have and rely on to get through this very trying and temporary life and go on to be with the Lord....

The Lord who loved them and gave Himself for them.

Paul even said, " I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

By the faith OF the Son of God.
Did you see that?
Paul confessed to living his life by the faith OF ( Greek, "τοῦ", "from the" ) the Son of God;
Not by His own "faith".

Yes, our faith as believers is a gift;
A gift that becomes ours when God gives it to us.
So, our faith as believers in Jesus Christ...
Was Authored and Finished by Jesus Christ.


Please, Craig...read the Scriptures through again.
There are so many details that it seems you're not picking up on.

 

[Craigbythesea]

The Lord Jesus, being God in the flesh, doesn't commit error.
He knew that Phillip, for example, would not and could not "place his faith in Him" without God Himself performing the miraculous acts of opening Phillip's understanding ( Luke 24:45 ) and granting to him the ability to "see" and "hear" His words.

When I read the Bible, I do not allow my mind to wander to what is not on the page.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Whether or not that sets any example is irrelevant, my friend, since God's word teaches that man's will is in complete and utter bondage to sin ( Romans 1, Romans 2, Romans 3, Psalms 10, Psalms 14 and many other places ). Even the Pharisees, who were so zealous for the God that they thought they knew, were condemned by the Lord Jesus as being completely unwilling to come to Him, that they might have life ( John 5:40 ).

My life experiences and the life experiences of others have taught me the difference between objective facts and hyperbolic literature.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Thread gone beyond 10 pages. Closed. Start another if you so choose.