questioning eternal security

[MMDAN]

Wow! You have just done what I have been doing for almost 60 years. You have found ways to explain away God's literal Word! I have found it is much easier to literally interpret His inspired Word. I am divesting myself of this thread and opening one asking why most preachers and Bible teachers do not translate verbs from the Greek.

I properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. That's not explaining away God's literal Word.

 

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

Hi Russel, thanks for the excellent study question. Does the fact that those saved "continuously believe" mean we must "continually believe" in order to remain saved?

I say NO.

In Post #7, you address John 10:27, which has "hear" and "follow" in the present tense. I agree, those born anew sometime in their past are said to in the present still hear and follow, thus they continue their adherence to their faith in God.

Next, in post #8, you address John 3:16, which as "believes" or "is believing" as the condition of those who will not perish but have everlasting life.
Again, I agree, that is the characteristic of those who have become His sheep, born anew children of God.

Which brings us to post #9, and Jesus praying for those who believe because of His disciples word. I believe the idea extends past the present, and to everyone, such as me, who will believe in the future when viewed from the time of His prayer. Thus, the idea is at the time of being given to Christ, they will be, in that present time, believing, not had believed, or will believe.

Next you mention John 6:40 which as those who "behold the Son and believes (present tense) into Him will have everlasting life and will be raised on the last day. So once again we have some who is believing at the time of salvation and then continues be believe as solid doctrine.

Continuing with post 10, you address 1 John 5:13 which says those who are believing may know they have everlasting life. Here again we have the characteristic of those born anew of continuous belief or faith. In 1 John 5:1 we have those who are believing that Jesus is the Christ have been and are continuing to be born of God. We can, I believe reverse the logic ans conclude those born anew will continuous believe or have faith.

Next, post #11, you address Hebrews 6:4-6 with the apparent assumption those in view were born anew. I hold a different view. So setting that aside, let us continue with the characteristic of continuous belief or faith.

Finally you mention Romans 4:5 which says those who believe (present tense) on Him who justified, their faith is credited as righteousness. So again, when a person is believing, God takes action and subsequently, they continue to believe or have faith.

No one should dispute that analysis. However, if when a person is born anew, their faith is protected by the power of God, it would be impossible to anyone born anew to lose or destroy that faith.

Which brings me to my rebuttal (excepting Hebrews 6:4-6) of the contention that a born anew believer can somehow lose or destroy the faith they had when God credited it as righteousness. See 1 Peter 1:3-5. I believe when we are born anew, God protects our faith such that we will receive our inheritance, our salvation, our everlasting life.

You do not appear in Charles Stanley's opinion that a true believer can spit in God's faith and remain saved. Ephesians 2:8 says "saved," not" justified." We are both justified and sanctified by faith. If, as you argue, we are kept saved by works, then you are also teaching that we are justified by works.

 

[Van]

You do not appear in Charles Stanley's opinion that a true believer can spit in God's faith and remain saved. Ephesians 2:8 says "saved," not" justified." We are both justified and sanctified by faith. If, as you argue, we are kept saved by works, then you are also teaching that we are justified by works.

Your response completely misses my hopefully biblical view.
1) There is no material difference between "saved and justified." All who are saved are justified and all who are justified as saved. You are either in Christ or you are not in Christ. No middle ground.

2) We are elected through faith, meaning if God credits our faith as righteousness He chooses us for salvation by transferring us spiritually into Christ, the "sanctification by the Spirit" of 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

3) I did not say, not suggest we are kept saved by works. I said when we are born anew, God protects our faith, 1 Peter 1:3-5, such that we will receive our salvation.

4) Here is what I said:

Which brings me to my rebuttal (excepting Hebrews 6:4-6) of the contention that a born anew believer can somehow lose or destroy the faith they had when God credited it as righteousness. See 1 Peter 1:3-5. I believe when we are born anew, God protects our faith such that we will receive our inheritance, our salvation, our everlasting life.​

 

[JesusFan]

You do not appear in Charles Stanley's opinion that a true believer can spit in God's faith and remain saved. Ephesians 2:8 says "saved," not" justified." We are both justified and sanctified by faith. If, as you argue, we are kept saved by works, then you are also teaching that we are justified by works.

Peter "spat in Jesus face", and yet being really saved, repented and return, while Judas did likewise to Jesus, but being lost and unsaved, showed in the end he never knew Christ in a saving fashion

 

[JesusFan]

Your response completely misses my hopefully biblical view.
1) There is no material difference between "saved and justified." All who are saved are justified and all who are justified as saved. You are either in Christ or you are not in Christ. No middle ground.

2) We are elected through faith, meaning if God credits our faith as righteousness He chooses us for salvation by transferring us spiritually into Christ, the "sanctification by the Spirit" of 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

3) I did not say, not suggest we are kept saved by works. I said when we are born anew, God protects our faith, 1 Peter 1:3-5, such that we will receive our salvation.

4) Here is what I said:

​

Which brings me to my rebuttal (excepting Hebrews 6:4-6) of the contention that a born anew believer can somehow lose or destroy the faith they had when God credited it as righteousness. See 1 Peter 1:3-5. I believe when we are born anew, God protects our faith such that we will receive our inheritance, our salvation, our everlasting life.​

Van, how can a spiritually dead sinner have inherit saving faith, as that faith must be granted to us by God, so we get NO credit for anything when God saves us

 

[Craigbythesea]

Van, how can a spiritually dead sinner have inherit saving faith, as that faith must be granted to us by God, so we get NO credit for anything when God saves us

This post is an excellent example of the erroneous drivel that we get from people who lack even a very basic knowledge of the Bible and yet audaciously attempt to teach it to people who have at least read it!

John 14:11. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; but if you do not, then believe me because of the works themselves. (NRSV)

John 14:11. πιστεύετέ μοι ὅτι ἐγὼ ἐν τῷ πατρὶ καὶ ὁ πατὴρ ἐν ἐμοί · εἰ δὲ μή, διὰ τὰ ἔργα αὐτὰ πιστεύετε. (SBL Greek text)

The Greek verb πιστεύω (believe) is the cognate verb of the Greek noun πίστις (faith). In John 14:11, the verb πιστεύω (believe) is in the imperative mood—the mood used to express commands. Jesus is commanding Philip to have faith in Him (Jesus). Therefore, we know from this passage of Scripture that having faith in Jesus is our responsibility just as it was Philip’s responsibility. Those persons who choose to obey Jesus’ command to have faith in Him are saved from their sins. Those persons who choose to not obey Jesus’ command to have faith in Him are NOT saved from their sins.

 

[Van]

Van, how can a spiritually dead sinner have inherit saving faith, as that faith must be granted to us by God, so we get NO credit for anything when God saves us

Folks, note this poster posts "erroneous drivel."
He manufactured "inherit saving faith" rather than accepting God may credit the faith of those who believe God raised Jesus from the dead.

 

[Dave G]

Therefore, we know from this passage of Scripture that having faith in Jesus is our responsibility just as it was Philip’s responsibility.

Not according to more of God's word and in other places it isn't, Craig:

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; ( Philippians 1:29 )

" Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." ( Hebrews 11:1 ).


Paul made it a special point to tell God's elect that even their faith, if those that professed to believe indeed had and have it, is of God...His gift to them.
That it was given to them, in the behalf of Christ, even to believe on Him;
That their faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen.


The evidence, my friend, of God's work in a person and on behalf of His mercy towards them.

 

[Dave G]

If it's solely our responsibility to have faith in Christ in order to gain salvation and to keep it, then God is relying on our works in order to save us, and not His grace and mercy alone as, for example, Titus 3 tells us:

" But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

Salvation is not, nor ever was, according to even our works of righteousness as believers in Christ.
It was and is according to His mercy alone.

 

[Dave G]

The lesson that we as believers learn from the Lord through His word, is that our works as men in the flesh only pollute God's grace toward us ( Romans 11:5-6 ), they do not compliment or even cooperate with it in order to gain and keep His favor. If we as believers do works that are righteous in the eyes of God, it is because of what He has done for us ( and what He has made us ), through the sacrifice and obedience of His Son.

His holiness, righteousness and judgement will not permit Him to share His glory with anyone.

To emphasize this,
God tells us specific things about our faith and where it comes from.
Please read the Scriptures again regarding it... and Who ultimately authored and finished it ( Hebrews 12:2 ).

Faith in Christ will be tested for all to see, sir...
And if a person genuinely has it, they are not only saved and the recipients of God's gifts of sonship and salvation, but are in the mercy and grace of God because He put them there.


May He bless you greatly in this life, my friend, and may you be found in His grace and mercy on that day.

 

[37818]

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Compare Romans 11:6, And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The three Greek subject words in.Ephesians 2:8-9, are "saved," "that," and "the gift."
. . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest
any man should boast.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Not according to more of God's word and in other places it isn't, Craig:

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; ( Philippians 1:29 )

" Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." ( Hebrews 11:1 ).


Paul made it a special point to tell God's elect that even their faith, if those that professed to believe indeed had and have it, is of God...His gift to them.
That it was given to them, in the behalf of Christ, even to believe on Him;
That their faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen.


The evidence, my friend, of God's work in a person and on behalf of His mercy towards them.

Is it your belief that Jesus forgot to read Paul’s epistles and erroneously believed that Philip, while still dead in his sins, could obey Him and place his faith in Him setting an example for us to also obey Him?

Luke 18:18. A certain ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
19. Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.
20. You know the commandments: “You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and mother.’”
21. He replied, “I have kept all these since my youth.”
22. When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “There is still one thing lacking. Sell all that you own and distribute the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.”
23. But when he heard this, he became sad; for he was very rich. (Compare Matt. 19:16-30; Mark 10:17-31; Luke:10-25-34)

James 2:14. What good is it, my brothers and sisters, {Gk [brothers]} if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you?
15. If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food,
16. and one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill," and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that?
17. So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18. But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
19. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder.
20. Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren?
21. Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22. You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works.
23. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God.
24. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25. Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road?
26. For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.

When Paul is interpreted in the absence of the express teaching of Jesus and His brother James, we get an extremely distorted gospel that completely ignores the fact that the doctrine of justification by faith alone is never so much as alluded to in any of the gospels. When Paul writes about works—he is always referring to works of the Law—he is never ignoring necessity of our abiding in Christ for
salvation (John 15:1-17).

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NRSV)
.

 

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

To Van: Evidently, my last post on this thread did not post.

Van: In Post #7, you address John 10:27, which has "hear" and "follow" in the present tense. I agree, those born anew sometime in their past are said to in the present still hear and follow, thus they continue their adherence to their faith in God.

My Reply: You are not defending what eternal security theology teaches. It teaches that believers do not have to continue hearing and following Christ in order to continue being saved.

Van: Next, in post #8, you address John 3:16, which as "believes" or "is believing" as the condition of those who will not perish but have everlasting life. Again, I agree, that is the characteristic of those who have become His sheep, born anew children of God.

My reply: You omitted my stress of “continuous believing” of the present participle. Again, you do not seem to be defending ES theology.

Van: Which brings us to post #9, and Jesus praying for those who believe because of His disciples word. I believe the idea extends past the present, and to everyone, such as me, who will believe in the future when viewed from the time of His prayer. Thus, the idea is at the time of being given to Christ, they will be, in that present time, believing, not had believed, or will believe.

My reply: This is what I am saying. Jesus was only praying for those who continuously believe.

Van: Next you mention John 6:40 which as those who "behold the Son and believes (present tense) into Him will have everlasting life and will be raised on the last day. So once again we have some who is believing at the time of salvation and then continues be believe as solid doctrine.

Van: Continuing with post 10, you address 1 John 5:13 which says those who are believing may know they have everlasting life. Here again we have the characteristic of those born anew of continuous belief or faith. In 1 John 5:1 we have those who are believing that Jesus is the Christ have been and are continuing to be born of God. We can, I believe reverse the logic and conclude those born anew will continuous believe or have faith.

My reply: I agree.

Van: Next, post #11, you address Hebrews 6:4-6 with the apparent assumption those in view were born anew. I hold a different view. So setting that aside, let us continue with the characteristic of continuous belief or faith.

Finally you mention Romans 4:5 which says those who believe (present tense) on Him who justified, their faith is credited as righteousness. So again, when a person is believing, God takes action and subsequently, they continue to believe or have faith.

My reply: Romans 4:5 is about those who continuously believe, present participle. The ES doctrine does not agree with your conclusion.



Van: No one should dispute that analysis.

My reply: I do and so also does the ES theology.

Van: However, if when a person is born anew, their faith is protected by the power of God, it would be impossible to anyone born anew to lose or destroy that faith.

My reply: Finally, you seem to be agreeing with ES theology. Such can only be true of salvation is unconditional, but the present participles make it conditdional.

Van: Which brings me to my rebuttal (excepting Hebrews 6:4-6) of the contention that a born anew believer can somehow lose or destroy the faith they had when God credited it as righteousness. See 1 Peter 1:3-5. I believe when we are born anew, God protects our faith such that we will receive our inheritance, our salvation, our everlasting life.

My reply: Verse 5 says the righteous are “kept by the power of God through faith.” I ask, What kidn of faith. John 6:40 says it is God’s will to save those who have continuous faith. Romans 4:5 agrees.

John of Japan: I did not find your posts. I am ending this thread and going to “Ignoring Present Participles Affect Baptist Theology.”

 

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

Compare Romans 11:6, And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The three Greek subject words in.Ephesians 2:8-9, are "saved," "that," and "the gift."
. . . For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest
any man should boast.

I am not aware of anybody on this thread teaching salvation by works. I gave you 15 of 57 "believe" present participles which all teach that the kind of faith which saves is "continuous faith." John 3:16 is the best known. Its ignored present participle teaches that whosoever "continuously" believeth should have everlasting life.

 

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

In John 10:27-28, we read - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them hear His voice and some of them don't hear His voice) and I know them, (not some of them He knows and some of them He doesn't know) and they follow Me. (not some of them follow Him and some of them don't follow Him) And I give them eternal life, (not some of them He gives eternal life and some of them He doesn't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will never perish and some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (not some of them will never be snatched out of His hand and some of them will be snatched out of His hand)

His sheep have eternal security. In CONTRAST with those do not believe and are not His sheep. (John 10:25-26)

His sheep have eternal security because His sheep keep on hearing His voice and keep on following Him.

 

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

Again I ask you, has what the Lord taught about Satan sowing "tares" among the "wheat" of God's "field" ( His spiritual kingdom ), not occurred to you when you indentify the present tense participles?

His sheep follow Him.
They know Him and are known of Him.
They are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).
The rest aren't.

I cannot speak for anyone else who reads this, but that fact is very sobering to me.

Incidentally, I don't see anywhere that the Scriptures teach "Once Saved, Always Saved"...
But I do see where it teaches this doctrine:

"If Saved, Always Saved".


It's in the details, Russell, and I think that you're missing some of them when you conclude that God's blood-bought children can somehow be pried out of His hands....especially by their own actions.

The Lord has already provided for their weak and feeble stumblings in this life, by telling them the work that He has begun in them, will continue to the day of the Lord ( Philippians 1:6 ).

You have not seriously looked at any of my 15 (of 57) examples of "believe" present participles. God inspired them as present continuous verbs and not as one-time aorist past tense verbs. Why?

 

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

What you miss in John 3:16 is that the word "have" is a present active subjunctive, ἔχῃ. By your own principle of the present always being "continuous" (it is not, but sometimes one actioj), then we continuously have eternal life. John 3:16 does not disprove "once saved always saved" at all!

I am very familiar with subjunctives. Why does John 3:16 says "should have" instead of "would have? Simply because not everybody who continuously believes will continue to believe.

 

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

This post if all too typical of believers in false doctrines who are unable to defend their beliefs so they attack the person of their dissenters! What an abomination!

To John of Japan:

You misread my post. My post begins with: “The following are 15 of the 57 ‘believe’ participles. When “believe” is fully translated, only those who “continuously” believe will:

--- therefore, nothing you have written makes sense.

 

[Dave G]

You have not seriously looked at any of my 15 (of 57) examples of "believe" present participles

This may surprise you, but yes I have... and I've already done so many years ago now.
In fact, I know every passage you have brought up, will bring up and could bring up in order to try and convince someone that salvation could be lost if they don't continue in the faith.

These same passages ( and many others ) illustrate someone who believes ( and continuously believes ) and trusts in the Lord...
Obeys His commands, keeps His word and does not deny Him before men.
What I suspect that you're not seeing is, these very same passages ( and many others ) speak of someone who does not and will not walk away from Him...ever.
They love Him more than life itself, and love Him more than they love father, mother, children and friends.

In other passages, the ones who are present-tense believing are the ones are who said to endure to the end, "finish the race", they "are worthy", they are the overcomers that "have not defiled their garments".

Do you know who they are speaking of, Russell?
God's precious elect, and no others.

Simply because not everybody who continuously believes will continue to believe.

I agree.
Not everyone who professes Christ, actually has His Spirit in them.
Not everyone who calls Him, "Lord" is really His.
Those that are His, abide in the vine and bear spiritual fruit ( John 15 )...the rest do not.

In God's word, those that fall away under trials and tribulations are known as "tares", while those that endure to the end and are saved are known as "wheat".
You have read and understood the parables as explained by the Lord Jesus in Matthew 13, Mark 4 and Luke 8, haven't you?
The ones that He told publicly to the Jews ( and some of them "believed" on Him for a time, see John 6 for example ), and in private explained the hidden meanings of to His disciples?


Please take another look at them, if you will.

 

[Dave G]

When Paul is interpreted in the absence of the express teaching of Jesus and His brother James, we get an extremely distorted gospel that completely ignores the fact that the doctrine of justification by faith alone is never so much as alluded to in any of the gospels.

Sir, just to clarify:
I don't believe in "justification by faith alone", though I once did... especially when I was a young believer.

In fact, I now see the Scriptures clearly teaching that God's elect are not only shown to be justified by their faith in Him and His Son...
They are also shown to be justified ( again, by His grace ) by the good works that they do in this life ( James 2:14-26 ).

You know, the works that the Lord Jesus said are wrought in God ( John 3:21 )?
The very same works that it is God who works in us, both to will, and to do, of His good pleasure ( Philippians 2:13 )?

Many will say to Him, "Lord, Lord", and will have done many good works in His name...
Yet He will say to them, " I never knew you".
Past tense, not present tense.

Just as faith without works is dead, so are good works without faith also dead, my friend.
If a person is not one of God's elect, Craig, anything "good" that they do ( no matter how well-intentioned or selfless that it is ) is worthless in His sight.

"Not of works, lest any man should boast."