questioning eternal security

[MMDAN]

They heard the gospel message and trusted in Christ, and we see in the parable what the results were.

Show me the words, "trusted in Christ" in that parable. So, you equate seed falling on rocky soil with no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, with trusting in Christ?

The one on the rocky ground believed "receive the word with joy" but had no depth to their faith.

I already thoroughly covered that in posts #98 #99 and #127.

The one among the thorns let the cares of the world crowd out their faith in Christ "bring no fruit to maturity". The one in good soil grew in faith "hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance". Christ's words show that they all did believe "receive the word with joy", "bring no fruit to maturity", "hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance"

I already thoroughly covered this in post #126.

I agree there are many superficial believers but for the warnings to be valid there would have to be for those that have actually trusted in Christ.
Why warn someone about something that can never happen to them?

You have not demonstrated they actually trusted in Christ. The proof is in the fruit and the perseverance. Luke 8:15 - But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

 

[MMDAN]

We are told to " work out your salvation with fear and trembling" for a reason. Those that do not strive to grow in their knowledge of and faith in God can and sometimes do neglect this to the point of apostasy. This can also happen to those that feel that they cannot be lost.

Fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life. Notice in Philippians 2:12 that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ.

This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified by faith. In verse 13, Paul goes on to say, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1) Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process.

In regard to "fear and trembling," it pertains to a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and a righteous awe and respect or reverence for Him. (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 2:11; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2) Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically saw God as a tyrant who couldn't wait to punish me every time I messed up and throw me into hell for not being "good enough." That is an unhealthy fear of bondage and insecurity which is not from above!

Paul uses the same phrase "fear and trembling" in 2 Corinthians 7:15 in which he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the reception of him by the Corinthians "with fear and trembling," that is, with humility and respect for his position as a minister of Jesus Christ. In 1 Corinthians 2:3, we see that Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in "weakness and fear, and with much trembling" in regard to the huge responsibility and critical importance of the work in which he was engaged.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yeah I don't really get too upset about this issue. Your statement there could be taken almost word for word from some of the Puritan literature. Owen has a book size work on apostacy and the Puritans taught that any sin clung to and persisted in could result in damnation.

Apostasy from the Gospel by John Owen (Banner of Truth Puritan Paperback; ISBN 0-851510609-2). Thoroughly recommended for those who are interested in this topic. The book is 'abridged and simplified for today's reader.'
'Few subjects have received less attention from contemporary Christian writers than that of apostasy. The idea that professing Christians may prove not to be true Christians is, in many respects, too serious a prospect for our facile age. But, for John Owen, such avoidance of the issue was in itself a pressing reason for writing on it at length and in great depth of spiritual analysis. His exposition is a masterpiece of penetration and discernment.'
[From the back page blurb. I thoroughly agree]

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I think you have addressed this to another respondent to this thread, but I will respond. You wrote Quite simply, the idea that someone can be 'in Christ' and then out again, and maybe in again sometime later is ridiculous, as is the notion that someone can be born of God - you know, the One who says, "I the LORD do not change" - and then end up in hell." If you accept the doctrine that salvation is conditional upon continuous faith, this would not seem ridiculous.

I am the one who wrote this. I think you misunderstand my point. Salvation is indeed conditional upon continuous faith, but the one who is born of God will continue in the faith for that very reason (1 John 2:3, 19 and a heap of other texts in the same letter)

Lock at Matthew 5:29-30. Jesus was not speaking to the lost because they were destined to hell whether or not they plucked out their eye. Sincle plucking out one's eye does not make them saved, Jesus must be speaking to the righteous who have slipped into a bad habitual sin and risk hell.
Look at John 15:2 and 6. In verse 2 the believer is "in Christ" and, in verse 6, the believer who does not "abide" is cast forth and burned.

Our Lord is seeking to challenge the false 'believer' and to tell the true Christian of the real nature of the law. Before I was saved, I thought that it was only physical adultery that was forbidden and that things like pornography were OK. Matt. 5 was one of the texts that the Lord used to convict me of sin and to bring me to salvation.

 

[Craigbythesea]

In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regard to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive. (Ephesians 1:13)

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these things may be genuine Christians, yet this alone is not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of conversion (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet those who draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regard to "tasted" the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We do not merely taste, but drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

In regard to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not always easy to tell them apart.

All of the recent (less than 40 years old) English language exegetical commentaries on the Greek text of Hebrews agree that the words “enlightened,” “have tasted the heavenly gift,” “have shared in the Holy Spirit,” “have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come” are speaking of true believers in Christ,

Grindheim, 2023; Kleinig, 2017; Cockerill. 2012; Allen, 2010; Johnson, 2006; Koester, 2001; Ellingworth, 1993; Lane, 1991; and Bruce, 1990.

Notice especially the name, Allen. This Allen is David L. Allen, the dyed-in-the-wool Baptist Biblical scholar whose commentary on Hebrews was published (2010) in the “New American Commentary” series—a dyed-in-the-wool Baptist commentary series whose General Editor is the dyed-in-the-wool Baptist E. Ray Clendenen and which is published by the dyed-in-the-wool Southern Baptist B&H Publishing Group, An imprint of Lifeway Christian Resources, an “entity” of the Southern Baptist Convention. Even the Baptist Biblical scholar David L. Allen, in spite of being a Baptist, bold writes,

"The history of interpretation of Hebrews 6 has often been marred by a failure to avoid manipulation and superimposing a preconceived theology on this text. This has been a problem especially with Calvinistic exegesis, which in more recent times some Calvinists admit. Mugridge said that Calvinists, in their attempts to alleviate the difficulties posed to their position by Heb 6:4-6, have supported interpretations that “often depend on ingenious but forced exegesis.” R. Peterson remarked, I frankly admit that some Calvinist treatments of the Hebrews warning passages leave much to be desired.” The theological schizophrenia of some Reformed treatments of Heb 6:4-6 leaves one scratching his head."

 

[Craigbythesea]

"The sheer force of the descriptive phrases militates against such an interpretation [that unsaved persons are being spoken of]. How can it be conceived that such descriptive phrases as enlightenment, experience of the heavenly gift of salvation, full sharing in the Holy Spirit, sharing in the Word of God and the powers of the coming age, do not have believers as their referent. Each of these statements finds their counterparts scattered throughout the New Testament, and when used in the same context as here, they refer to those who are genuine believers. Grudem’s affirmation that the group’s outward affiliation with the church made it impossible to determine their status until they “fell away” is a fact not in dispute. No matter one’s theological position on this passage, all would affirm such a statement. Unsaved people can and do participate in the church; the wheat and the tares grow together. At issue is whether unsaved people can be so described by an author who thinks or knows them to be unsaved. The issue of determining their status is not the point for the author. By the descriptive language he chooses, he indicates their status as believers. Had the author wanted to convey their status as unbelievers, he could have done so. There is no direct statement that those described in Heb. 6:4-6 were unbelievers. If the author is referring to unsaved people, this is the only place in the New Testament where such language can be said to be used in this fashion."

Allen, David L. Hebrews, Volume 35 of the New American Commentary. Nashville: B & H Publishing Group, 2010. p.353.

 

[MMDAN]

All of the recent (less than 40 years old) English language exegetical commentaries on the Greek text of Hebrews agree that the words “enlightened,” “have tasted the heavenly gift,” “have shared in the Holy Spirit,” “have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come” are speaking of true believers in Christ,

Grindheim, 2023; Kleinig, 2017; Cockerill. 2012; Allen, 2010; Johnson, 2006; Koester, 2001; Ellingworth, 1993; Lane, 1991; and Bruce, 1990.

Notice especially the name, Allen. This Allen is David L. Allen, the dyed-in-the-wool Baptist Biblical scholar whose commentary on Hebrews was published (2010) in the “New American Commentary” series—a dyed-in-the-wool Baptist commentary series whose General Editor is the dyed-in-the-wool Baptist E. Ray Clendenen and which is published by the dyed-in-the-wool Southern Baptist B&H Publishing Group, An imprint of Lifeway Christian Resources, an “entity” of the Southern Baptist Convention. Even the Baptist Biblical scholar David L. Allen, in spite of being a Baptist, bold writes,

"The history of interpretation of Hebrews 6 has often been marred by a failure to avoid manipulation and superimposing a preconceived theology on this text. This has been a problem especially with Calvinistic exegesis, which in more recent times some Calvinists admit. Mugridge said that Calvinists, in their attempts to alleviate the difficulties posed to their position by Heb 6:4-6, have supported interpretations that “often depend on ingenious but forced exegesis.” R. Peterson remarked, I frankly admit that some Calvinist treatments of the Hebrews warning passages leave much to be desired.” The theological schizophrenia of some Reformed treatments of Heb 6:4-6 leaves one scratching his head."

I have read various interpretations of Hebrews 6:4-6 from multiple theologians and Greek scholars before

Hebrews 6:4-5 Commentary | Precept Austin

www.preceptaustin.org

and after doing my own research I have found that its imperative to properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine, as I have done in post #139.

Also, I have found that ALL false religions and cults that promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which has always been a major red flag for me.

 

[Dave G]

At issue is whether unsaved people can be so described by an author who thinks or knows them to be unsaved. The issue of determining their status is not the point for the author. By the descriptive language he chooses, he indicates their status as believers. Had the author wanted to convey their status as unbelievers, he could have done so. There is no direct statement that those described in Heb. 6:4-6 were unbelievers. If the author is referring to unsaved people, this is the only place in the New Testament where such language can be said to be used in this fashion."

The author of Hebrews ( the Holy Spirit ), did identify who the subject is in chapter 6...
Those that have believed on Christ:

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 but that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned." ( Hebrews 6:1-8 ).

Hebrews 6:4-6 is indeed describing those that are saved.
What surprises me is that so many who profess to know Him, miss this when they read this passage for themselves.

Please read it again, Craig.

 

[Dave G]

When I read it, I see this:
He's describing an impossible situation.

It is impossible for the saved ( bought, paid for at the cross, and for whom the Lord Jesus sits at the right hand of God the Father making intercession ), if they should fall away ( which is not possible ), to renew them again unto repentance;
Because it would require that the Son of God be put to an open shame by re-crucifying Him.

Both situations are impossible because:

1) The work is finished...He did it once, for all who are saved ( Hebrews 10:1-18 )
2) God keeps His elect by His own power ( 1 Peter 1:5 ), not ours. His own power that is greater than our feeble abilities in the flesh.

All,

1) We already know that a person truly believes because they are one of His sheep ( John 10:26 ) and that no one can take His sheep out of His hand ( John 10:27-29 ). That nothing can separate them from the love of God ( Romans 8:28-39 ).
2) We already know ( from what the Lord Jesus has told us ), that the reason that He was given power over all flesh, is so that He should give eternal life ( which is to know God ) to only as many as were given to Him by God the Father ( John 17:2 ).
3) We already know that only those who were given to the Son by the Father, will come to Him...and that all those who come to Him ( believe on Him ) He will not cast out ( John 6:35-48 ).
4) We already know that no man can come to Jesus Christ except it were given to the person to do so, by God the Father ( John 6:64-65 ).
5) We already know that only someone who is "of God" can hear and understand His words ( John 8:43-47 )...that there are people who hear and believe, and people who do not...even when it's preached to them. Paul experienced it at Mar's Hill, and it happens even now.
6) We already know, from Matthew 13 and Mark 4, which "soils" bear fruit and which do not...that there are "tares" ( false brethren ) sown in the kingdom of God by the Lord's enemy, Satan. That not everyone who calls Him "Lord" will enter the kingdom of Heaven.


...and we already know that the one who hears ( understands ) God's word and believes on the Father who has sent the Lord Jesus for us, has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation... but is passed from spiritual death to spiritual life ( John 5:24 ).


Jesus Christ came to do the will of God the Father...and He will lose none of those who have been given to Him by His Father.
They will be raised up at the last day:

"And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

 

[kyredneck]

Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Not stopped believing but did not believe.

ICYMI, Moses and Aaron both were ‘destroyed’ in the wilderness because of their unbelief.

 

[Blank]

The reason I changed was that ES Baptists totally ignore God's inspired Greek present participles behind "eth" and "es" verbs like "believe," "abide" and "overcome."

Wouldn't the same hold true here?...

1 John 1:7 (KJV) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

How could a Christian lose one's salvation if there is a continual cleansing?

 

[DaveXR650]

@Craigbythesea. If you have David Allen's commentary on Hebrews my question is what does he go on to conclude about that passage? The reason I ask is that his comments are usually a response to Calvinism and my understanding is that traditional Baptists like him would definitely teach a version of OSAS.

I would be interested in how he handles what @Dave G brought up about the idea of it being impossible to renew such a person to repentance and about it being a hypothetical problem.

I do have David Allen's book "Whosoever Will" and although he doesn't write the chapter on assurance he is the editor. They explain the many variations that are common in understanding perseverance and assurance and I think they do it in a fair way. I would be surprised if David Allen really teaches that a true believer can fall away and would like to verify if that was indeed the case in your quote or was he attempting once again to discredit some aspect of Calvinism, which he commonly does. In the chapter of "Whosoever Will" I looked at they are respectful of everyone's reasoning, even the Calvinists and conclude that there is indeed a distinctly "Baptist" understanding of this but I can't tell exactly where Dr. Allen himself comes down.

As @Dave G points out, there is a difference in saying that the passage is referring to a real believer and saying that this is an actual thing that believers can do.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I believe that you have probably misunderstood my words, “I have not been able to verify it genuineness.” There is nothing more important to me that the truth. I was educated in a culture that demands a very high degree proof before anything is believed to be true. In this case, the verification that I would need is the name of the “supporter,” the name of the work in which his statements were originally published, the context in which the quote is found, the name of the translator (into English), and the academic standing of the translator. I would be much more concerned about the words of Gottschalk himself, but since he was a somewhat obscure 9th century Saxon, finding reliable copies of his writings would be beyond my ability.

[/QUOTE]
First of all, Gottschalk was not 'somewhat obscure.' He was an important figure in the desperate times in which Christianity found itself in the 9th Century. To be described as a heretic in those times could be seen as a badge on honour. Are you aware of the state of the papacy during that time? According to Philip Schaff, the papacy, "became the prey of avarice, violence and intrigue, a veritable synagogue of Satan. Pope followed pope in rapid succession, and most of them ended their career in deposition, prison and murder.' Three women of high birth and low morals filled the papacy with their paramours and illegitimate children for year after year. These facts are acknowledged by Roman Catholic historians.
Gottschalk was condemned by Semi-Pelagian archbishop Hincmar who had him flogged almost to death, ordered his books to be burned (hence the lack of extant writings) and imprisoned him in a monastery for the rest of his life.
Supporters of Gottschalk include Archbishop Remigius of Lyons, Florus of Lyons and Prudentius of Troyes. The document I quoted from is usually accredited to Remigius, but some scholars think it might have been Florus. That the document is genuine, however, is not in dispute, except by you.
I do not have a particularly high view of any of the Church Fathers - the apostasy had begun before the passing of the apostles (Acts 20:29-30; Jude 4) - and I would not have troubled to quote one had you not made the false claim that no one before the Reformation believed in the Perseverance of the Saints.

What seems to be “ridiculous” to you seems to the very large majority of Christians to be to totally rational and common sense

I am aware that the Church of Rome disagrees with me, but I think I can bear that. @MMDAN has expressed my opinion very well so I won't repeat what he has written. If the Lord Jesus has promised to keep His sheep and that they 'shall never perish,' I think I will believe him. If the apostle Paul tells me that 'we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us,' I do not believe that we shall be defeated, and when he says that 'neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers ....... shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord,' I think I will believe him also.

 

[37818]

Salvation is conditional. According to Romans 8:1 and 4, "there is 'not one' condemnation to those who are "continuously walking"
according to the Spirit. You referenced 3 texts: According to Romans 1:16, "the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who (continuously believes." According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 we "stand" in the gospel and "are being saved" "f ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." And, according to 1 Jn 5:1 "Whosoever (continuously) believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him." You are doing the same thing I did for 60 years ---- not translating the verbs correctly.

Bring born of God.

Romans 1:16, ". . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . ."

1 Corinthians 15:1-4, ". . . the gospel . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . "

1 John 5:1, ". . . Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . ."

 

[37818]

Salvation is conditional. According to Romans 8:1 and 4, "there is 'not one' condemnation to those who are "continuously walking"
according to the Spirit. You referenced 3 texts: According to Romans 1:16, "the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who (continuously believes." According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 we "stand" in the gospel and "are being saved" "f ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." And, according to 1 Jn 5:1 "Whosoever (continuously) believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him." You are doing the same thing I did for 60 years ---- not translating the verbs correctly.

ου μη means not in any way or never.

Such as never to perish.
John 10:28, . . . I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, . . .

 

[Craigbythesea]

The author of Hebrews ( the Holy Spirit ), did identify who the subject is in chapter 6...
Those that have believed on Christ:

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 but that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned." ( Hebrews 6:1-8 ).

Hebrews 6:4-6 is indeed describing those that are saved.
What surprises me is that so many who profess to know Him, miss this when they read this passage for themselves.

Please read it again, Craig.

I did not write the words,

"At issue is whether unsaved people can be so described by an author who thinks or knows them to be unsaved. The issue of determining their status is not the point for the author. By the descriptive language he chooses, he indicates their status as believers. Had the author wanted to convey their status as unbelievers, he could have done so. There is no direct statement that those described in Heb. 6:4-6 were unbelievers. If the author is referring to unsaved people, this is the only place in the New Testament where such language can be said to be used in this fashion."​

Indeed, I gave the credit to whom it belongs,

Allen, David L. Hebrews, Volume 35 of the New American Commentary. Nashville: B & H Publishing Group, 2010. p.353.

In post 145, I rote in part,

All of the recent (less than 40 years old) English language exegetical commentaries on the Greek text of Hebrews agree that the words “enlightened,” “have tasted the heavenly gift,” “have shared in the Holy Spirit,” “have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come” are speaking of true believers in Christ,

Grindheim, 2023; Kleinig, 2017; Cockerill. 2012; Allen, 2010; Johnson, 2006; Koester, 2001; Ellingworth, 1993; Lane, 1991; and Bruce, 1990.

Notice especially the name, Allen. This Allen is David L. Allen, the dyed-in-the-wool Baptist Biblical scholar whose commentary on Hebrews was published (2010) in the “New American Commentary” series—a dyed-in-the-wool Baptist commentary series whose General Editor is the dyed-in-the-wool Baptist E. Ray Clendenen and which is published by the dyed-in-the-wool Southern Baptist B&H Publishing Group, An imprint of Lifeway Christian Resources, an “entity” of the Southern Baptist Convention. Even the Baptist Biblical scholar David L. Allen, in spite of being a Baptist, bold writes,​

Having written these words, I posted two quotes from Allen in which he accurately criticized J. Calvin and the many people who blindly accept his statements as being true to the Bible when they are not. I fully agree with Allen on this point, but NOT on the point that he makes about the consequence to true believers who commit apostasy.

 

[Craigbythesea]

@Craigbythesea. If you have David Allen's commentary on Hebrews my question is what does he go on to conclude about that passage? The reason I ask is that his comments are usually a response to Calvinism and my understanding is that traditional Baptists like him would definitely teach a version of OSAS.

I would be interested in how he handles what @Dave G brought up about the idea of it being impossible to renew such a person to repentance and about it being a hypothetical problem.

I do have David Allen's book "Whosoever Will" and although he doesn't write the chapter on assurance he is the editor. They explain the many variations that are common in understanding perseverance and assurance and I think they do it in a fair way. I would be surprised if David Allen really teaches that a true believer can fall away and would like to verify if that was indeed the case in your quote or was he attempting once again to discredit some aspect of Calvinism, which he commonly does. In the chapter of "Whosoever Will" I looked at they are respectful of everyone's reasoning, even the Calvinists and conclude that there is indeed a distinctly "Baptist" understanding of this but I can't tell exactly where Dr. Allen himself comes down.

As @Dave G points out, there is a difference in saying that the passage is referring to a real believer and saying that this is an actual thing that believers can do.

DaveXR650,

Thank you for caring about the truth and what Allen believes about apostasy as shown in his comments on Hebrew chapter 6. He believes that Calvin was radically wrong in believing that the persons described in vv 4-5 were unbelievers, but being a Southern Baptist, he could NOT believe that genuine believers can commit apostasy and be eternally lost. Therefore, he was forced to believe the absurd—that the penalty for such apostasy is NOT eternal separation from Christ.

Grindheim, 2023; Kleinig, 2017; Cockerill. 2012; Johnson, 2006; Koester, 2001; Ellingworth, 1993; Lane, 1991; and Bruce, 1990 all agree that the words “enlightened,” “have tasted the heavenly gift,” “have shared in the Holy Spirit,” “have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come” are speaking of true believers in Christ, that the danger of apostasy is real and does occur, that the penalty for such apostasy is eternal separation from Christ, and that it is impossible to restore apostates again to salvation. I own and have here in my study the commentary on Hebrews by Allen and all of the other commentaries that I have cited in this post.

May God abundantly bless you and those who are dear to you!

 

[Blank]

Salvation is conditional. According to Romans 8:1 and 4, "there is 'not one' condemnation to those who are "continuously walking"

It's conditional alright, conditional on Christ's obedience, not ours. I'd hate to usurp His righteousness and replace it with my own.

Romans 5:19 ASV
For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I have never made the claim that no one before the Reformation believed in the Perseverance of the Saints. My statement was, “Earlier than the Reformation, we do not find in any extrabiblical literature so much as a hint of any doctrine of eternal security.” You have failed to provide even one verifiable quote to prove that my statement was untrue. I explained that I was using the term “eternal security” in a manner in which it is commonly used by Baptists, and I also explained in detail what I mean by “verifiable,” but I have seen no evidence that the truth is of any interest to you.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Proponents of the doctrine of eternal security like to quote John 10:27-29 out of context and totally miss the point that Jesus was making—the very point that got Him crucified!

27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.” (NASB, 1995)

Here it is in context,

22. At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem;
23. it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon.
24. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25. Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
26. “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30. “I and the Father are one.” (NASB, 1995)

In this passage, Jesus is asserting his deity. The importance of the words in verse 28 all but escapes the attention of many. Compare thi passage:

Isa. 43:13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?” (NASB, 1995)

Jesus is telling the Jews that His hand is the hand of God, and that, therefore, He is God! But notice that there is nothing at all in any of these three verses that says that anyone is grasped in the hand of God so that he cannot escape if he wants to. The point is that it is the hand of God, and being the hand of God there is safety in it. Those who are in the hand of God are in Christ and in Christ is the eternal life—and no where else! Anyone who chooses either actively or passively to depart from the Christian faith departs from Christ and necessarily departs from the life that is in Christ. Just as we possess the safety of God only while we abide in Christ, we possess the life of Christ only while we abide in Him. Eternal life is Christ’s life and we posses it only in Him. The Greek adjective translated ‘eternal’ modifies the Greek noun translated ‘life’ and thus describes not our possession of the life, but the life itself—the life of Christ that we share with Him when we are in Him.

The context of Isa. 43:13, quoted above, is important to the understanding of that verse and John 10:27-29.

1. But now, thus says the LORD, your Creator, O Jacob, And He who formed you, O Israel, “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name; you are Mine!
2. “When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; And through the rivers, they will not overflow you. When you walk through the fire, you will not be scorched, Nor will the flame burn you.
3. “For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place.
4. “Since you are precious in My sight, Since you are honored and I love you, I will give other men in your place and other peoples in exchange for your life.
5. “Do not fear, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, And gather you from the west.
6. “I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’ Bring My sons from afar And My daughters from the ends of the earth,
7. Everyone who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.”
8. Bring out the people who are blind, even though they have eyes, And the deaf, even though they have ears.
9. All the nations have gathered together So that the peoples may be assembled. Who among them can declare this And proclaim to us the former things? Let them present their witnesses that they may be justified, Or let them hear and say, “It is true.”
10. “You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.
11. “I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
12. “It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses,” declares the LORD, “And I am God.
13. “Even from eternity I am He, And there is none who can deliver out of My hand; I act and who can reverse it?”
14. Thus says the LORD your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, “For your sake I have sent to Babylon, And will bring them all down as fugitives, Even the Chaldeans, into the ships in which they rejoice.
15. “I am the LORD, your Holy One, The Creator of Israel, your King.” (NASB, 1995)
16. Thus says the LORD, Who makes a way through the sea And a path through the mighty waters,
17. Who brings forth the chariot and the horse, The army and the mighty man (They will lie down together and not rise again; They have been quenched and extinguished like a wick):
18. “Do not call to mind the former things, Or ponder things of the past.
19. “Behold, I will do something new, Now it will spring forth; Will you not be aware of it? I will even make a roadway in the wilderness, Rivers in the desert.
20. “The beasts of the field will glorify Me, The jackals and the ostriches, Because I have given waters in the wilderness And rivers in the desert, To give drink to My chosen people.
21. “The people whom I formed for Myself Will declare My praise.
22. “Yet you have not called on Me, O Jacob; But you have become weary of Me, O Israel.
23. “You have not brought to Me the sheep of your burnt offerings, Nor have you honored Me with your sacrifices. I have not burdened you with offerings, Nor wearied you with incense.
24. “You have bought Me not sweet cane with money, Nor have you filled Me with the fat of your sacrifices; Rather you have burdened Me with your sins, You have wearied Me with your iniquities.
25. “I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, And I will not remember your sins.
26. “Put Me in remembrance, let us argue our case together; State your cause, that you may be proved right.
27. “Your first forefather sinned, And your spokesmen have transgressed against Me.
28. Therefore I profaned the princes of the sanctuary,
I delivered Jacob to utter destruction,
and Israel to reviling.
(NASB, 1995)

Being delivered to utter destruction does not sound like eternal security to me!

In spite of all that God did for Israel, and in spite of all of God’s promises to be faithful to Israel, Israel chose to disobey God and became reviled in His sight. The very same thing has been true of countless Christians whom God saved, blessed, and made promises to be faithful to—promises that were conditional upon their faithfully abiding in Christ. Indeed, in John 10:28, Jesus made the same promise to His people that God made to His people in Isaiah 43:13, and yet later in the same chapter of Isaiah, we read that many of His people departed from His hand and became reviled in His sight. Christians who choose to remain in the hand of God remain secure in their salvation; Christians who do not choose to remain in the hand of God lose their salvation.