questioning eternal security

[DaveXR650]

Eternal security is true for those that continue to believe in Christ Jesus but if one that believes chooses to latter reject that faith then they are not saved are they. Those that hold to OSAS would say that no matter what the person would be saved.

But that may not be a possibility. That's what I keep trying to say. I think the reformed explanation of how this works, called the perseverance of the saints, which is slightly different than OSAS is a better explanation. However; being a Baptist, I see how OSAS could be true. And yes, those that hold to OSAS could become complacent or even presumptuous regarding how they live, but they don't always do that.

If the possibility of a believer rejecting Christ did not exist then why the warning passages?

I thought I explained that. It may not make sense for a OSAS person but it makes perfect sense for someone who believes that a saint must indeed persevere, even though doctrinally you know that they indeed will persevere. If you don't think it makes sense then just assume you can lose your salvation. Just be aware that you may have a hard time dealing with other passages that suggest this is not possible.

To think that it is impossible for a true believer to fall away can lead to a false sense of security. Thus the warning passages value.

It could but in all fairness, OSAS believers don't mean that nothing can happen to a person who falls into sin. Sickness, loss, even premature death are often mentioned as well as loss of rewards and the prospect of facing Christ someday as disapproved or rejected for service. There again, if you don't care about that then you probably weren't saved to begin with. If you were then the warnings are still powerful.

 

[kyredneck]

I personally cannot not believe in eternal security.

I'm at a loss to understand this ambiguous statement. Do you or do you not hold to 'eternal security'? (it matters not a whit to me whether you do or not, just seeking clarity)

 

[Silverhair]

But that may not be a possibility. That's what I keep trying to say. I think the reformed explanation of how this works, called the perseverance of the saints, which is slightly different than OSAS is a better explanation. However; being a Baptist, I see how OSAS could be true. And yes, those that hold to OSAS could become complacent or even presumptuous regarding how they live, but they don't always do that.

But that is the point that seems to be the stumbling block for those that hold to the calvinist and or the OSAS view. Whether it is OSAS or the calvinist perseverance view it still comes down to the same thing. Those that believe cannot lose their salvation and thus the question that has not been answered, why the warning passages?

I thought I explained that. It may not make sense for a OSAS person but it makes perfect sense for someone who believes that a saint must indeed persevere, even though doctrinally you know that they indeed will persevere. If you don't think it makes sense then just assume you can lose your salvation. Just be aware that you may have a hard time dealing with other passages that suggest this is not possible.

Yes I understand that both the OSAS and calvinist's due to their doctrinal views think it makes perfect sense. I know that other passages suggest you cannot but that is just a theological view of how those verses are to be understood. Those that continue to believe will have eternal security in Christ and that is the point, those that continue to be in Christ through continued faith.

The calvinist view regarding those that fall away that they never really believed flies in the face of all the warning passages. To me it just seems like the lazy man's way of dealing with the warning passages.

It could but in all fairness, OSAS believers don't mean that nothing can happen to a person who falls into sin. Sickness, loss, even premature death are often mentioned as well as loss of rewards and the prospect of facing Christ someday as disapproved or rejected for service. There again, if you don't care about that then you probably weren't saved to begin with. If you were then the warnings are still powerful.

We are told to " work out your salvation with fear and trembling" for a reason. Those that do not strive to grow in their knowledge of and faith in God can and sometimes do neglect this to the point of apostasy. This can also happen to those that feel that they cannot be lost.

So yes the warning are to be taken seriously.

 

[DaveXR650]

We are told to " work out your salvation with fear and trembling" for a reason. Those that do not strive to grow in their knowledge of and faith in God can and sometimes do neglect this to the point of apostasy. This can also happen to those that feel that they cannot be lost.

So yes the warning are to be taken seriously.

Yeah I don't really get too upset about this issue. Your statement there could be taken almost word for word from some of the Puritan literature. Owen has a book size work on apostacy and the Puritans taught that any sin clung to and persisted in could result in damnation. Whether that means you were never a true believer or whether you lost it really makes no difference. The result is the same and the remedy is the same.

 

[Craigbythesea]

The Holy Spirit is God, and once he seals and indwells a saint now, its forever

I have never seen a believer sealed in a Mason jar! Perhaps this post is based upon a ridiculous misunderstanding of three verses in Ephesians,

Eph. 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Eph._4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. ESV)

In the Greek text, Ephesians 1:13-14 is a small fraction of a very long sentence that comprises vv. Eph. 1:3-14, the entire sentence being a doxology in which the main clause (an independent and autonomous unit of expression that can be correctly punctuated as a sentence) is “Blessed be the God and Father” found in v. 3. Everything else in this very long sentence is a lengthy series of subordinate phrases and clauses supporting the statement in the main clause. Therefore, Eph. 1:3-14 is not a series of objective theological statements that tell us the whole story, but only a small part of the story—a story that tells us what God has done for us, but does not tell us what we must do—that is, continue in our faith, or as Jesus put it, “abide” in Him.

In v. 13, we read that in Christ we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. The seal spoken of in this context is the seal of ownership, guaranteeing the owner of the seal the right to keep, sell, exchange, or give away the property or goods bearing his seal. Therefore, to suggest that being sealed with the Holy Spirit is like being sealed in a Mason jar is biblically incorrect. The only thing that the seal does is guarantee that we who are in the process of believing in Christ as our Lord and our Savior belong to the King. We do NOT own the King; the King owns us—and as our owner, He is free to do with us as He pleases. Therefore, for any Christian to claim that the King is obligated to keep us if we fall into disbelief and willful disobedience is not only to make an audaciously insubordinate claim, it is to outright deny of the holiness and righteousness of God.

Eph. 4:30 speaks of the same kind of seal as does Eph. 1:13—a seal designating ownership and the rights of ownership.

 

[MMDAN]

You continue to make the assumption that those that trust in Christ will never change their view. The reality is that it does happen. Even Christ disagree with your view, of the second soil "who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away." of the third soil, "when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity."

You are reading your philosophy into the text and then deny the warning passages.

What you consider an answer in post # 68 does not deal with the reality of the warning passages. Why are they there? Who were they meant for if not those that actually trusted in Christ?

According to you those that truly believe could never fall away and all the others were destined to fall away as they never really believed. So were the warnings real or not?

In regard to the seed that is sown among thorns, the person hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful, produces nothing, yields nothing. (Mark 4:19) It was choked out before reaching its desired goal. In the case of the thorny ground hearer, the plant was never firmly rooted and established in which it could produce fruit (even though there was motion and movement toward becoming an established plant) but it was choked out before reaching its desired goal again because the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. The word is choked and therefore does not produce a renewed spiritual life in the person.

IN CONTRAST TO - the seed that fell on GOOD SOIL, the person hears the word and understands it, who INDEED BEARS FRUIT with patience (perseverance) and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. *All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) "Faith without works is dead" and only the 4th soil produced crops of any size.* There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is no mention of choking or withering away thereafter.

The warnings are real and so are superficial believers whose belief never takes root and results in salvation.

 

[MMDAN]

So were these "shallow ground believers" true believers or not?

No. They did not believe unto salvation as I already explained in post #98. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus which "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.

But you were not speaking of "temporarily" falling away in your prior comments. Stumbling is not falling away from faith/apostasy.

There is a difference between temporarily falling away or stumbling and permanently falling away/drawing back to perdition after receiving the "knowledge" of the truth but failing to embrace the truth unto salvation/believe to the saving of the soul.

You made the bold comments that true believers would never fall and all the rest would fall not just stumble.

True believers may fall seven times and rise again. That is not permanent. The wicked fall by calamity. Read Psalm 37:28.

Well it seems you do not believe that apostasy or fall away means to lose one's salvation.

Nope.

So if they do not mean that then are all those that profess faith in Christ saved?

Have you found the words "lose salvation" in scripture yet?

Those that continue to trust in Christ will be saved those that never believe or even those that have believed and latter reject said belief will be lost. Thus the warning passages.

Those who continue to trust in Christ demonstrate that their belief is firmly rooted and established and will be saved. Those who profess to believe but later reject their profession of faith demonstrate that their belief was never firmly rooted and established from the start and they will not be saved.

Since you agree that the Holy Spirit is 100% honest 100% of the time then why do you continue to deny the warning passages are actually warnings?

I am not denying the warning passages and I already explained in post #68 why those warning passages are there.

 

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

@Russell Earl Kelly PHD,
What is your view on the Greek "ου μη" usage?


NT usage 84x

Salvation is conditional. According to Romans 8:1 and 4, "there is 'not one' condemnation to those who are "continuously walking"
according to the Spirit. You referenced 3 texts: According to Romans 1:16, "the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who (continuously believes." According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 we "stand" in the gospel and "are being saved" "f ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." And, according to 1 Jn 5:1 "Whosoever (continuously) believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him." You are doing the same thing I did for 60 years ---- not translating the verbs correctly.

 

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

No. They did not believe unto salvation as I already explained in post #98. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus which "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.

There is a difference between temporarily falling away or stumbling and permanently falling away/drawing back to perdition after receiving the "knowledge" of the truth but failing to embrace the truth unto salvation/believe to the saving of the soul.

True believers may fall seven times and rise again. That is not permanent. The wicked fall by calamity. Read Psalm 37:28.

Nope.

Have you found the words "lose salvation" in scripture yet?

Those who continue to trust in Christ demonstrate that their belief is firmly rooted and established and will be saved. Those who profess to believe but later reject their profession of faith demonstrate that their belief was never firmly rooted and established from the start and they will not be saved.

I am not denying the warning passages and I already explained in post #68 why those warning passages are there.

You asked, "Have you found the words, 'lose salvation' in Scripture yet?

Much more:
Believers can become “good for nothing” (Mt 5:13), can go to hell if they do not remove offending body parts (Mt 5:29, 30), will not be forgiven by God if they do not forgive others (Mt 6:15), will be denied before the Father if they deny Christ (Mt 10:33), are “not fit for the kingdom” if they look back (Lk 9:62), will be cut off from Christ if they do not abide and produce good works (Jn 15:2-6), can be “castaway” (1 Cor 9:27), can become “bewitched” and “believe in vain” (Gal 3:1-4), can return again to the yoke of bondage (Gal 5:1), can “fall from grace” (Gal 5:4), can become “shipwreck” by not “holding faith” (1 Tim 1:19), can “depart from the faith” and have their conscience “seared with a hot iron” (1 Tim 4:1-2), will be “denied” by Christ (2 Tim 2:12), can “depart from the living God” (Heb 3:12), can “fall away” (Heb 6:4-6), would be better if they had “never been born” (2 Pet 2:20-21) and can “have their names blotted out of the book of life (Rev 3:5).

 

[Craigbythesea]

Well it took me about ten minutes to find that quote, and it came from a reputable Church historian whose books are used by several seminaries in Britain. I have therefore met your challenge, and I have no doubt that if I spent another half hour, I could find some more. However, ploughing through the works of ancient theologians, which tend increasingly to be tinged with Roman Catholicism the further on one goes, is not my idea of fun.
Quite simply, the idea that someone can be 'in Christ' and then out again, and maybe in again sometime later is ridiculous, as is the notion that someone can be born of God - you know, the One who says, "I the LORD do not change" - and then end up in hell.
Perhaps you will explain what exactly you mean by "the prevailing Baptist doctrines of eternal security." We live in different countries, so we may have different ideas of what those doctrines are.

I believe that you have probably misunderstood my words, “I have not been able to verify it genuineness.” There is nothing more important to me that the truth. I was educated in a culture that demands a very high degree proof before anything is believed to be true. In this case, the verification that I would need is the name of the “supporter,” the name of the work in which his statements were originally published, the context in which the quote is found, the name of the translator (into English), and the academic standing of the translator. I would be much more concerned about the words of Gottschalk himself, but since he was a somewhat obscure 9th century Saxon, finding reliable copies of his writings would be beyond my ability.

Nonetheless, it appears to me that his theological beliefs on this issue are fairly well known to be extreme—so extreme, in fact, that he was convicted of heresy. That is, he believed that all persons were predestined by God to either salvation or damnation, and that the predestination was irreversible (compare the very different teaching on predestination by Saint Augustine). Therefore, no one who was predestined by God to salvation could lose his salvation. This is, however, very different from the prevailing Baptist doctrines of eternal security found in mainstream Baptist theology in which upon belief in Christ, believers are irreversibly saved without any qualifiers. Compare, for example, the teaching of J. D. Faust is his book, THE ROD: WILL GOD SPARE IT? An Exhaustive Study of Temporary Punishment for Unfaithful Christians at the Judgment Seat and During the Millennial Kingdom.

What seems to be “ridiculous” to you seems to the very large majority of Christians to be to totally rational and common sense

 

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

I believe that you have probably misunderstood my words, “I have not been able to verify it genuineness.” There is nothing more important to me that the truth. I was educated in a culture that demands a very high degree proof before anything is believed to be true. In this case, the verification that I would need is the name of the “supporter,” the name of the work in which his statements were originally published, the context in which the quote is found, the name of the translator (into English), and the academic standing of the translator. I would be much more concerned about the words of Gottschalk himself, but since he was a somewhat obscure 9th century Saxon, finding reliable copies of his writings would be beyond my ability.

Nonetheless, it appears to me that his theological beliefs on this issue are fairly well known to be extreme—so extreme, in fact, that he was convicted of heresy. That is, he believed that all persons were predestined by God to either salvation or damnation, and that the predestination was irreversible (compare the very different teaching on predestination by Saint Augustine). Therefore, no one who was predestined by God to salvation could lose his salvation. This is, however, very different from the prevailing Baptist doctrines of eternal security found in mainstream Baptist theology in which upon belief in Christ, believers are irreversibly saved without any qualifiers. Compare, for example, the teaching of J. D. Faust is his book, THE ROD: WILL GOD SPARE IT? An Exhaustive Study of Temporary Punishment for Unfaithful Christians at the Judgment Seat and During the Millennial Kingdom.

What seems to be “ridiculous” to you seems to the very large majority of Christians to be to totally rational and common sense

I think you have addressed this to another respondent to this thread, but I will respond. You wrote Quite simply, the idea that someone can be 'in Christ' and then out again, and maybe in again sometime later is ridiculous, as is the notion that someone can be born of God - you know, the One who says, "I the LORD do not change" - and then end up in hell." If you accept the doctrine that salvation is conditional upon continuous faith, this would not seem ridiculous.

Lock at Matthew 5:29-30. Jesus was not speaking to the lost because they were destined to hell whether or not they plucked out their eye. Sincle plucking out one's eye does not make them saved, Jesus must be speaking to the righteous who have slipped into a bad habitual sin and risk hell.
Look at John 15:2 and 6. In verse 2 the believer is "in Christ" and, in verse 6, the believer who does not "abide" is cast forth and burned.

 

[Silverhair]

Yeah I don't really get too upset about this issue. Your statement there could be taken almost word for word from some of the Puritan literature. Owen has a book size work on apostacy and the Puritans taught that any sin clung to and persisted in could result in damnation. Whether that means you were never a true believer or whether you lost it really makes no difference. The result is the same and the remedy is the same.

Those must have been some really smart dudes.

 

[Silverhair]

In regard to the seed that is sown among thorns, the person hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful, produces nothing, yields nothing. (Mark 4:19) It was choked out before reaching its desired goal. In the case of the thorny ground hearer, the plant was never firmly rooted and established in which it could produce fruit (even though there was motion and movement toward becoming an established plant) but it was choked out before reaching its desired goal again because the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. The word is choked and therefore does not produce a renewed spiritual life in the person.

IN CONTRAST TO - the seed that fell on GOOD SOIL, the person hears the word and understands it, who INDEED BEARS FRUIT with patience (perseverance) and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. *All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) "Faith without works is dead" and only the 4th soil produced crops of any size.* There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is no mention of choking or withering away thereafter.

The warnings are real and so are superficial believers whose belief never takes root and results in salvation.

They heard the gospel message and trusted in Christ and we see in the parable what the results were. The one on the rocky ground believed "receive the word with joy" but had no depth to their faith. The one among the thorns let the cares of the world crowd out their faith in Christ "bring no fruit to maturity". The one in good soil grew in faith "hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance". Christ's words show that they all did believe "receive the word with joy", "bring no fruit to maturity", "hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance"

I agree there are many superficial believers but for the warnings to be valid there would have to be for those that have actually trusted in Christ.
Why warn someone about something that can never happen to them?

 

[Craigbythesea]

You wrote Quite simply, the idea that someone can be 'in Christ' and then out again, and maybe in again sometime later is ridiculous, as is the notion that someone can be born of God - you know, the One who says, "I the LORD do not change" - and then end up in hell."

I did not write the words that you quoted—Martin Marprelate wrote those words.

 

[Silverhair]

As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him"

There is a difference between temporarily falling away or stumbling and permanently falling away/drawing back to perdition after receiving the "knowledge" of the truth but failing to embrace the truth unto salvation/believe to the saving of the soul.

There is a vast difference. We all stumble, sin, but we repent and still trust in God. Those that fall away or apostatize abandon their faith and repudiate their former beliefs.

Nope.

I asked you this "Well it seems you do not believe that apostasy or fall away means to lose one's salvation." and you just said "nope"

Apostasy is a complete and final rejection of God.

Have you found the words "lose salvation" in scripture yet?

That is what apostasy means.

Those who continue to trust in Christ demonstrate that their belief is firmly rooted and established and will be saved. Those who profess to believe but later reject their profession of faith demonstrate that their belief was never firmly rooted and established from the start and they will not be saved.

So you just disagree with Christ.

Since you do jot even understand what apostasy means and you just reject what the bible says regarding said apostasy I see not reason to continue this discussion so I will leave you to your thoughts.

 

[MMDAN]

You asked, "Have you found the words, 'lose salvation' in Scripture yet?

So, you have not found the words, "lose salvation" in Scripture. You only found certain verses in Scripture that "on the surface" appear to say that.

Much more:
Believers can become “good for nothing” (Mt 5:13),

Before the days of refrigeration, salt was used widely as a preservative. Salt can also change the flavor of food, just as the influence of Christians can change and preserve a culture. The idea of salt losing those properties results in something that was supposed to be salt but didn't taste or produce results from salt anymore. It becomes useless. The point here is not about loss of salvation, but a loss of effectiveness.

can go to hell if they do not remove offending body parts (Mt 5:29, 30),

I already covered this in post #75. Once again, Jesus was not literally encouraging self-mutilation but was using this graphic hyperbole to express the seriousness of sin and its consequences. Apart from the grace of God and the blood of Christ we would all die in our sins. (Roman's 3:23-28; 6:23; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8,9) Jesus' audience was primarily Jewish (Israelites under the law) and He was bringing things to light for those who looked to the law and the prophets. The transition from law to grace is in progress. Jesus is not saying here that saved persons habitually sin and go to hell/lose their salvation. That would contradict what John said in (1 John 3:7-10).

will not be forgiven by God if they do not forgive others (Mt 6:15),

Continued unforgiveness is the mark of an unbeliever and forgiveness would be the mark of a genuine believer. A Christian’s forgiveness of others from the heart is based on an understanding that we have been forgiven by God. Hearts that are humble and appreciate God’s grace gladly forgive others from a heart that is saved, but proud and revengeful hearts with that offer no forgiveness will not receive God's forgiveness.
We should forgive others because God, through Christ, has forgiven us. (Ephesians 4:32) It is inconceivable that someone who has truly experienced God's forgiveness could refuse to grant forgiveness to others. Forgiveness is about a heart condition and not a work for salvation.

will be denied before the Father if they deny Christ (Mt 10:33),

In Matthew 10:32-33, the broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him everywhere they went. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven.

Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:18; 10:9; 14:6).

The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisees and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23 but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father.

are “not fit for the kingdom” if they look back (Lk 9:62),

Does this verse pertain to service or membership? Certain translations read: Luke 9:62 - Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.” Only those who are not born again are not fit for membership. (John 3:3)

will be cut off from Christ if they do not abide and produce good works (Jn 15:2-6),

In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

The Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. Abiding in Christ is not a special level of Christian experience that is only available to a few, elite Christians, but is the position of all true believers. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

can be “castaway” (1 Cor 9:27),

Paul is talking about being disqualified for the prize (NIV) and not disqualified for the gift of eternal life. In context, Paul has been discussing preaching the gospel. In verse 18 he says, "What is my reward, then?" In verses 24-27 he illustrates this thought of his reward by the picture of a race run for the prize. Salvation is a gift that we receive by grace through faith, (Ephesians 2:8,9) and not a prize that we race for, win and earn.

Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph. That does not sound like a free gift to me. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 mentions - If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, (of reward) though he himself will be saved.

1 Corinthians 9:24 - "Do you not know that those who run in a race ALL run, but ONLY ONE receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it." In an Olympic race, all runners run but only one receives the gold medal. So, what happens to the runners that receive the silver medal or bronze medal or finish the race with no medal? Are they disqualified from the Olympics or for the prize? Everyone who competes but falls short of winning a gold medal is not disqualified from the Olympics.

 

[MMDAN]

can become “bewitched” and “believe in vain” (Gal 3:1-4), can return again to the yoke of bondage (Gal 5:1), can “fall from grace” (Gal 5:4),

The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting sidetracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self-effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

Even though folks may truly be saved it's not impossible for them to become temporarily sidetracked by legalistic teachers (especially babes in Christ). Yet there are also "professing" believers mixed in who are not saved in which case Paul's presentation of the gospel would not have its desired effect which would also confirm Paul's concern.

Just as we see in 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast (demonstrative evidence of faith being firmly rooted and established) that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe unto salvation in the first place).

Now if these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, as for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! That settles it for me.

So, contemplating justification by the law after being sidetracked by legalistic teachers does not mean that these Galatians lost their salvation. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. No names are mentioned. No final sentence pronounced. Paul's harsh words simply drive home the point that justification by the law and justification by faith are incompatible.

can become “shipwreck” by not “holding faith” (1 Tim 1:19),

I see no conclusive evidence here of a loss of salvation. So, were Hymenaeus and Alexander pretenders exposed for what they were or were they straying believers disciplined by God. In 1 Timothy 1:20, we read - Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme. Where have we heard that before?

In 1 Corinthians 5:1-5, we read about a man who has committed sexual immorality by having his father's wife (does that sound like shipwrecked faith? Was it permanent?), yet verse 5 says deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. If Hymenaeus and Alexander were truly saved, then how do we know the outcome was not the same for them as it was the adulterer in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 who later repented in 2 Corinthians chapter 2?

can “depart from the faith” and have their conscience “seared with a hot iron” (1 Tim 4:1-2),

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, (sounds like Roman Catholicism) and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

The words "the faith" are in regard to the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines. Some who are in a state of professing adherence to the apostolic faith, nevertheless, will in both doctrine and practice depart from it, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Some "nominal" Christians will abandon the Christian faith, the New Testament apostolic body of doctrines for cults or false religions. That does not prove they were previously born again.

In 1 John 2:19, we read - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

I believe the beginning of such a major departing from the apostolic faith was evidenced by the Roman Catholic church in the early 4th century. The Roman Catholic church forbids its clergy to marry. This same church has other doctrines of demons such as transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, papal infallibility, Mary's perpetual virginity etc..

will be “denied” by Christ (2 Tim 2:12),

I see a contrast with, "if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. If we endure, We shall also reign with Him -- AND -- If we deny Him, He also will deny us. If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

"By contrast, the latter "deny Him and faithless" points to the opposite of died with Him, endure and reign with Him. Jesus Himself warned of the danger of denying Him in Matthew 10:33 - "But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.." To "deny him" here does not point merely to a temporary weakness of faith, as in the case of Peter who denied Jesus three times during a moment of weakness (Luke 22:54-62), but is referring to life in it's entirety. The inevitable result is that "He will also deny us."

The warning is repeated in the final sentence, "if we are faithless, he abides faithful." To be "faithless" is in the present tense and denotes this as the habitual attitude, not a temporary lapse of faith. But in contrast to human faithlessness, "He remains faithful," faithful to His word and righteous character and His warning that unbelievers will be rejected.

 

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can “depart from the living God” (Heb 3:12),

Context. In Hebrews 3:8-10, we read - Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' *Not descriptive of genuine believers. *There is no loss of salvation here. *Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Not stopped believing but did not believe.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and hope firm until the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah and of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have become partakers of Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. What about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

Just like in Hebrews 4:1-2, For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which they heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For WE who have believed do enter that rest..

 

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can “fall away” (Heb 6:4-6),

In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regard to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive. (Ephesians 1:13)

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these things may be genuine Christians, yet this alone is not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of conversion (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet those who draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regard to "tasted" the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We do not merely taste, but drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

In regard to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not always easy to tell them apart.

 

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would be better if they had “never been born” (2 Pet 2:20-21)

Those who are truly born of God are partakers of the divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20.

*These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome.

*Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature." Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who rejected the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ yet was never saved. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

and can “have their names blotted out of the book of life (Rev 3:5).

Revelation 3:5 - "He who overcomes I will never blot out his name from the book of life." The "overcomer" mentioned in this letter to Sardis is the Believer/Christian. Compare this with 1 John 5:4: "Everyone who is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. Certain people read Revelation 3:5 as if God’s pen is raised and ready to strike out the name of any Christian who does not overcome every possible struggle in life. They read into it like this: "If you don't overcome every struggle in life and win the victory based on the merits of your performance, then you’re going to lose your salvation! But that is NOT what the verse says. Jesus is giving a promise here to overcomers and not a warning.

You still have not shown me a verse from Scripture that unequivocally states that a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation."