questioning eternal security

[Silverhair]

What I would point out is that the theology that betrayed you is a branch of hybrid Baptist theology called "easy believism" which is free will as far as getting saved but then hyper-Calvinist as far as staying saved. If taught wrong it can do a lot of damage. It is a type of antinomianism that Baxter, Wesley, and the Reformers were always warning against.

A Calvinist will say that if God calls you and regenerates you initially and is solely responsible for you getting saved of course you will stay saved and you will continuously believe because the whole process is driven by God. But an Arminian or I assume a Free Will Baptist, who puts a high value on the free will, or at least the non-refusal of the free will the question is logically then why can't I use my free will and leave the faith?

Even with the hybrid Baptist theology mentioned above you need to understand that the reasoning is that although there is some degree of free will involved in initial salvation, the idea of regeneration or being born again means that a new principle of life in given to a believer and it is now unthinkable that they would totally and finally leave the faith. That this can morph into "easy believism" is not new. Read Romans Chapter 6.

Yet even here be careful. I think it was Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones who said that if you preach the gospel of grace truthfully and faithfully you will be accused of antinomianism at some point. All I'm trying to say is that you have a point in that we are to continue in belief but that is not unique to Free Will Baptists and I wouldn't camp too much on the tenses in some verses, as if you have discovered a controversy that never really existed.

God has provided the various means through which a person can come to the point of freely trusting in Him for their salvation. While I agree that it is unthinkable that someone who has trust in Him would latter reject Him the reality is that it does happen.

 

[Dave G]

As long they His sheep keep on hearing His voice and keep on following Him, He keeps on knowing them and giving them eternal life

No, Russell.
The text does not say, " As long as His sheep follow Him, He keeps on knowing them and giving them eternal life".

It says, " My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand. "

It's declared that His sheep do hear and do follow.
It's declared that His sheep will never perish.
No one is able to pluck His sheep out of His Father's hand, because no one is greater than God the Father.

By the way,
I've emphasized the words so it's easier for those who read the passage to pick out just who it is that the Lord Jesus is talking about.
Those that are truly His.


Again, the parables of the seeds and of the tares ( as explained by the Lord in Matthew 13 and Mark 4 ) tell us more of what we need to know about who is who...

There is a group of people who believe for a time and then fall away,
and there is a group of people who believe "to the saving of the soul" ( Hebrews 10:39 ).

Those are His sheep.

 

[Dave G]

Again I ask you, has what the Lord taught about Satan sowing "tares" among the "wheat" of God's "field" ( His spiritual kingdom ), not occurred to you when you indentify the present tense participles?

His sheep follow Him.
They know Him and are known of Him.
They are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).
The rest aren't.

I cannot speak for anyone else who reads this, but that fact is very sobering to me.

Incidentally, I don't see anywhere that the Scriptures teach "Once Saved, Always Saved"...
But I do see where it teaches this doctrine:

"If Saved, Always Saved".


It's in the details, Russell, and I think that you're missing some of them when you conclude that God's blood-bought children can somehow be pried out of His hands....especially by their own actions.

The Lord has already provided for their weak and feeble stumblings in this life, by telling them the work that He has begun in them, will continue to the day of the Lord ( Philippians 1:6 ).

 

[DaveXR650]

God has provided the various means through which a person can come to the point of freely trusting in Him for their salvation. While I agree that it is unthinkable that someone who has trust in Him would latter reject Him the reality is that it does happen.

That's true and cannot be denied. It's always a puzzlement as to how this works and I have noticed different groups handle it in different ways. Puritans talked about "temporary faith" or how people can go on quite far in following Christ on their own by the use of self reformation of their lives and so on. Free Will Baptists, Church of Christ, and Wesleyans just say they turned away. That it is a truth that some follow for a while then turn back cannot be denied yet that does not prove theologically that true born again believers can do so.

But the answer in scripture is never just to assume you can't lose it so relax and have fun and let the slipups fall where they may. Yet that is what some churches do teach nowadays so I'm glad Russell brought this up.

 

[37818]

@Russell Earl Kelly PHD,
Sir,
I personally cannot not believe in eternal security.
I do know that Paul, Peter and John teach one should make sure of one's faith.

 

[Silverhair]

That's true and cannot be denied. It's always a puzzlement as to how this works and I have noticed different groups handle it in different ways. Puritans talked about "temporary faith" or how people can go on quite far in following Christ on their own by the use of self reformation of their lives and so on. Free Will Baptists, Church of Christ, and Wesleyans just say they turned away. That it is a truth that some follow for a while then turn back cannot be denied yet that does not prove theologically that true born again believers can do so.

But the answer in scripture is never just to assume you can't lose it so relax and have fun and let the slipups fall where they may. Yet that is what some churches do teach nowadays so I'm glad Russell brought this up.

This is a good discussion to be had.

Regarding those that latter turn away from their professed faith, we can not prove theologically that they were or were not true believers. What we do know is that they listened to and professed to believed the gospel message and were saved. Now whether it was a true or false profession only God would know. I would not put myself in the position of making that determination about someone else's salvation as some seem quite comfortable with doing.

 

[MMDAN]

In John 10:27-28, we read - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them hear His voice and some of them don't hear His voice) and I know them, (not some of them He knows and some of them He doesn't know) and they follow Me. (not some of them follow Him and some of them don't follow Him) And I give them eternal life, (not some of them He gives eternal life and some of them He doesn't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will never perish and some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (not some of them will never be snatched out of His hand and some of them will be snatched out of His hand)

His sheep have eternal security. In CONTRAST with those do not believe and are not His sheep. (John 10:25-26)

 

[MMDAN]

I feel betrayed by the very theology I once fanatically loved. Present participles are on every page of the New Testament but are covered up and treated like past-tense one-time professions of faith.

There is genuine faith that continues and there is an empty profession of faith that does not continue. Saving faith in Christ continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.

 

[MMDAN]

What is the point you are trying to make? The text shows us that some listened and would not believe and some listened and believed. The present tense shows that in both cases it was something they continued to do. Those that continued to rejected Him were lost those that continued to follow/trust in Him were saved.

But nothing in those verses says that those in either group could not change their mind regarding who Christ was. The sheep could stop believing and the lost could become sheep through faith.

Show me in those verses where Jesus said His sheep could stop believing, no longer have eternal life and be snatched from His hand.

You said it yourself:

"The present tense shows that in both cases it was something they continued to do. Those that continued to reject Him were lost those that continued to follow/trust in Him were saved."

So much for flip flopping.

 

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

What I would point out is that the theology that betrayed you is a branch of hybrid Baptist theology called "easy believism" which is free will as far as getting saved but then hyper-Calvinist as far as staying saved. If taught wrong it can do a lot of damage. It is a type of antinomianism that Baxter, Wesley, and the Reformers were always warning against.

A Calvinist will say that if God calls you and regenerates you initially and is solely responsible for you getting saved of course you will stay saved and you will continuously believe because the whole process is driven by God. But an Arminian or I assume a Free Will Baptist, who puts a high value on the free will, or at least the non-refusal of the free will the question is logically then why can't I use my free will and leave the faith?

Even with the hybrid Baptist theology mentioned above you need to understand that the reasoning is that although there is some degree of free will involved in initial salvation, the idea of regeneration or being born again means that a new principle of life in given to a believer and it is now unthinkable that they would totally and finally leave the faith. That this can morph into "easy believism" is not new. Read Romans Chapter 6.

Yet even here be careful. I think it was Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones who said that if you preach the gospel of grace truthfully and faithfully you will be accused of antinomianism at some point. All I'm trying to say is that you have a point in that we are to continue in belief but that is not unique to Free Will Baptists and I wouldn't camp too much on the tenses in some verses, as if you have discovered a controversy that never really existed.

"But nothing in those verses says that those in either group could not change their mind regarding who Christ was. The sheep could stop believing and the lost could become sheep through faith."

That is precisely what I believe, but it is not mainstream Baptist Eternal Security theology. You sound like an off-shoot and I do not think many will agree with you. Mainstream Baptist theology teaches that once-saved-always-saved means you cannot change your mind. Romans 4:5 sys it best when the participle is translated. God justifies those who keep on believing.

 

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

Show me in those verses where Jesus said His sheep could stop believing, no longer have eternal life and be snatched from His hand.

You said it yourself:

"The present tense shows that in both cases it was something they continued to do. Those that continued to reject Him were lost those that continued to follow/trust in Him were saved."

So much for flip flopping.

Eternal security theology does NOT teach that once-eternally-saved believers MUST continue hearing God's Word and MUST continue following Christ. It teaches that they can deny Christ and not continue serving Him and still be saved. It removes free will and denies believers the choice of removing themselves from God's hand. In order to teach once-saved-always-saved, you must turn God's inspired present participles into one-time professions of faith and past tense verbs.

 

[Silverhair]

Show me in those verses where Jesus said His sheep could stop believing, no longer have eternal life and be snatched from His hand.

You said it yourself:

"The present tense shows that in both cases it was something they continued to do. Those that continued to reject Him were lost those that continued to follow/trust in Him were saved."

So much for flip flopping.

No flip flopping at all. Those that "believe" and since "believe" is in the present tense it means those that continue to believe. Logically if they do not continue to believe then they will not be saved or do you think God will force those that do not believe in Him to be with Him for eternity?

 

[DaveXR650]

"But nothing in those verses says that those in either group could not change their mind regarding who Christ was. The sheep could stop believing and the lost could become sheep through faith."

I guess people will argue till eternity whether someone who stops believing was ever truly saved and born again or just deceiving themselves and those around them.

That is precisely what I believe, but it is not mainstream Baptist Eternal Security theology. You sound like an off-shoot and I do not think many will agree with you. Mainstream Baptist theology teaches that once-saved-always-saved means you cannot change your mind. Romans 4:5 sys it best when the participle is translated. God justifies those who keep on believing.

Reformed Baptists agree with me. As do guys like MacArthur. But there can be a big problem with mainstream Baptists who seem to think that once saved always saved turns salvation into a fire escape mechanism where from then on one could live a life not changed at all and yet feel secure that they would be saved. There is no assurance of that type in the Bible.

I do not have a problem with you warning someone that if they do not continue in the faith then they cannot count on being saved. I agree with that but I am probably coming from more of a Reformed understanding of how that works. Perseverance in the faith is necessary. But is it due to you just being able to keep on believing or is it a continuous work of the Holy Spirit in your life as you grow and progress as a Christian - with the end result being that someday we will realize that at best the Spirit helps us along and many times is flat out intervening and carrying us.

If you read something like Pilgrim's Progress you see this, with Christian going along making mistakes and facing disaster, without presuming upon the fact that he is for sure going to make it. Yet he is receiving divine help when needed, and will make it. And this was written by a Calvinist.

 

[Reynolds]

I am 80 and have been a fanatical eternal security teaching Baptist until 4 years ago and am now a Free Will Baptist.

The reason I changed was that ES Baptists totally ignore God's inspired Greek present participles behind "eth" and "es" verbs like "believe," "abide" and "overcome." It is wrong to change God's Word from a "continuous," or "habitual", or "regularly" meaning into a "one-time profession of faith" which requires a past-tense aorist verb. Greek teachers should be ashamed for allowing this to occur.

IMO, you can't logically embrace eternal security without fully embracing Calvinism.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

IMO, you can't logically embrace eternal security without fully embracing Calvinism.

Via Saving Grace

 

[canadyjd]

He is not adding words he is just pointing out what the Greek text tenses show. Faith is not a one time thing but rather a continuing faith.

I don’t need a lecture on the Bible from someone who believes many are saved having never heard the gospel.

And you are wrong. He is adding words to what Jesus said, literally.

Peace to you

 

[MMDAN]

Eternal security theology does NOT teach that once-eternally-saved believers MUST continue hearing God's Word and MUST continue following Christ. It teaches that they can deny Christ and not continue serving Him and still be saved. It removes free will and denies believers the choice of removing themselves from God's hand. In order to teach once-saved-always-saved, you must turn God's inspired present participles into one-time professions of faith and past tense verbs.

I don't teach that eternally secure believers can deny Christ, refuse to serve Him, turn their back on Him, live like the devil etc.. and still be saved. Genuine believers are new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) and have become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. (2 Peter 1:4) Genuine believers have been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. Unlike make believers where the change is merely cosmetic. Anyone can "profess" to have faith but that does not necessarily mean they truly do have authentic faith. Also, don't underestimate God's preservation.

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

In Romans 8:30, we read - Moreover, whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty. I understand "predestined" to be based on God's foreknowledge (vs. 29) rather than fatalistic determination as taught in Calvinism.

 

[MMDAN]

No flip flopping at all. Those that "believe" and since "believe" is in the present tense it means those that continue to believe. Logically if they do not continue to believe then they will not be saved or do you think God will force those that do not believe in Him to be with Him for eternity?

I believe that those who truly believe in the first place (and do not believe in vain) will continue to believe. Those who hold fast to the gospel/continue in the faith demonstrate that faith was firmly rooted and established from the start and they truly were saved. Those who fail to continue demonstrate otherwise.

Just as we see in 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast (demonstrative evidence of faith being firmly rooted and established) that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe unto salvation in the first place).

It makes sense that Paul would speak this way because he is addressing large groups of people who all "profess" to be Christians without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance of salvation here when in fact some of them may not be saved? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue.

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" or pseudo-Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Once a person is genuinely saved, he is saved forever. He will never be unsaved. God has birthed in him a new nature that cannot and will not stop believing.

God has taken him out of the dominion of darkness and put him into the kingdom of His dear Son. The true believer cannot undo what God has done.

 

[JesusFan]

Hi Russel, thanks for the excellent study question. Does the fact that those saved "continuously believe" mean we must "continually believe" in order to remain saved?

I say NO.

In Post #7, you address John 10:27, which has "hear" and "follow" in the present tense. I agree, those born anew sometime in their past are said to in the present still hear and follow, thus they continue their adherence to their faith in God.

Next, in post #8, you address John 3:16, which as "believes" or "is believing" as the condition of those who will not perish but have everlasting life.
Again, I agree, that is the characteristic of those who have become His sheep, born anew children of God.

Which brings us to post #9, and Jesus praying for those who believe because of His disciples word. I believe the idea extends past the present, and to everyone, such as me, who will believe in the future when viewed from the time of His prayer. Thus, the idea is at the time of being given to Christ, they will be, in that present time, believing, not had believed, or will believe.

Next you mention John 6:40 which as those who "behold the Son and believes (present tense) into Him will have everlasting life and will be raised on the last day. So once again we have some who is believing at the time of salvation and then continues be believe as solid doctrine.

Continuing with post 10, you address 1 John 5:13 which says those who are believing may know they have everlasting life. Here again we have the characteristic of those born anew of continuous belief or faith. In 1 John 5:1 we have those who are believing that Jesus is the Christ have been and are continuing to be born of God. We can, I believe reverse the logic ans conclude those born anew will continuous believe or have faith.

Next, post #11, you address Hebrews 6:4-6 with the apparent assumption those in view were born anew. I hold a different view. So setting that aside, let us continue with the characteristic of continuous belief or faith.

Finally you mention Romans 4:5 which says those who believe (present tense) on Him who justified, their faith is credited as righteousness. So again, when a person is believing, God takes action and subsequently, they continue to believe or have faith.

No one should dispute that analysis. However, if when a person is born anew, their faith is protected by the power of God, it would be impossible to anyone born anew to lose or destroy that faith.

Which brings me to my rebuttal (excepting Hebrews 6:4-6) of the contention that a born anew believer can somehow lose or destroy the faith they had when God credited it as righteousness. See 1 Peter 1:3-5. I believe when we are born anew, God protects our faith such that we will receive our inheritance, our salvation, our everlasting life.

Since God Himself granted to His own saving faith, how can they then lose that free gift