Questions about the Calvinist viewpoint.

[Winman]

Jesus paid my sin debt in full to the father...He died in my place...

How do you know that you are elect if Jesus did not die for all men as you believe? Did you see your name on a list someplace?

You cannot possibly know if Jesus died for you if Limited Atonement is true, it is logically impossible. You can insist all day long you know you are elect, but you cannot possibly know this.

Since I KNOW that God saved me, as I have the inner witness from the Holy Spirit, and have become a new creation in Jesus, and study the Bible, pray, interested to see others know jesus...

Lots of folks have a "inner witness" as you call it, some are quite bizarre. Some folks hear voices, some see visions or have dreams, etc... That doesn't prove you are elect.

In fact Calvin himself taught what is called Evanescent Grace. He taught that God actually deludes and deceives men, giving them a faith that seems so real that the person believe they are saved, but are not. You could easily be one of those if Limited Atonement is true.

John Calvin called this divine deception “evanescent grace”. It was his answer to the problem of so many real life cases of those who lived for many years seemingly loving and trusting in God and producing godly fruit, only to eventually fall away and abandon the faith. According to Calvin, God gave such people a delusion that made them think they were saved, and even feel like they were saved, only to eventually remove this fleeting grace and reveal that they were just deluded hypocrites that God had never regenerated and whose faith, while it seemed very real to them, was not real faith at all. For a more detailed look at Calvin’s evanescent grace and the way that Calvinism undercuts Biblical salvation assurance, see the first link given at the end of this post.

https://arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/category/salvation-assurance/

Those fruits evidence that I was one of His elect!
He ONLY saves one of His own!

What you are saying is your WORKS prove to yourself you are elect. Good luck with that.

 

[Yeshua1]

How do you know that you are elect if Jesus did not die for all men as you believe? Did you see your name on a list someplace?

You cannot possibly know if Jesus died for you if Limited Atonement is true, it is logically impossible. You can insist all day long you know you are elect, but you cannot possibly know this.



Lots of folks have a "inner witness" as you call it, some are quite bizarre. Some folks hear voices, some see visions or have dreams, etc... That doesn't prove you are elect.

In fact Calvin himself taught what is called Evanescent Grace. He taught that God actually deludes and deceives men, giving them a faith that seems so real that the person believe they are saved, but are not. You could easily be one of those if Limited Atonement is true.



https://arminianperspectives.wordpress.com/category/salvation-assurance/


that you cannot base assurance on the promise
What you are saying is your WORKS prove to yourself you are elect. Good luck with that.

No, what I am saying is that one can KNOW they are really saved, by the testimony of the Holy Spirit now within us, and evidenced in how we now view and see things differently than before receiving Christ!

Are you stating that we cannot base assurnance on what Jesus and the Apostles promised?

 

[Inspector Javert]

No, what I am saying is that one can KNOW they are really saved,

If Calvinism is true, no, you cannot. Not objectively. You can appeal to what you BELIEVE to be the case and you can be incredibly convinced, but you have no objective way to assuredly know Christ died for you personally if Calvinism is true.

by the testimony of the Holy Spirit now within us,

How would you know the Holy Spirit is within you?
You cannot know with any objective certainty that Christ died for you personally, therefore you can "feel" or "think" the Holy Spirit is within you, but you cannot know.

Many honest (and truly saved) people truly believe the Holy Spirit in them helps them to speak in tongues. They KNOW it's the Holy Spirit.....because of the inner witness.
But, you and I know they are wrong.

and evidenced in how we now view and see things differently than before receiving Christ!

Again, inherently subjective:
People have religious epiphanies all the time.
Many are brought about by hallucinogens.....
Many are brought on by a combination of sleeplessness, exhaustion, de-hydration and heat-stroke....sometimes PLUS hallucinogens.

But, it isn't salvation.

Are you stating that we cannot base assurnance on what Jesus and the Apostles promised?

He's stating that Jesus and the Apostles promised you can base assurance on the fact that Christ died for ALL men, and that he will save all those who call upon him:

That's not what you are appealling to. You are appealing to subjective feelings. That's not objective knowledge.

 

[Rippon]

If Calvinism is true, no, you cannot. Not objectively. You can appeal to what you BELIEVE to be the case and you can be incredibly convinced, but you have no objective way to assuredly know Christ died for you personally if Calvinism is true.

What a bunch of malarkey.

How would you know the Holy Spirit is within you?

Romans 8:16 :"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."

Jesus and the Apostles promised you can base assurance on the fact that Christ died for ALL men, and that he will save all those who call upon him:

No, you are wrong assurance of salvation has nothing to with Christ dying for all people (a nonsensical proposition if ever there was one). it is true that the Lord will save all those who call upon Him. And we know from the Word of God that those who call upon Him don't do it on their own accord. The Lord is the One who not only initiates but carries the whole process onto completion from first to last since He is the Author of our salvation.

 

[steaver]

No, you are wrong assurance of salvation has nothing to with Christ dying for all people (a nonsensical proposition if ever there was one). it is true that the Lord will save all those who call upon Him. And we know from the Word of God that those who call upon Him don't do it on their own accord. The Lord is the One who not only initiates but carries the whole process onto completion from first to last since He is the Author of our salvation.

So you are saying that even saying a prayer calling upon the Lord is the Lord speaking through the person?

 

[Inspector Javert]

Romans 8:16 :"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children."

1.)That passage has nothing to do with assurance of Salvation (it applies if, and only if the pre-supposition is held that one indeed IS saved, see the verses before it
Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Assurance is about knowing whether or not the conditions previously established in verse 9 are met.....The question is how do you know those conditions if you don't know who Jesus died for?

2.)Even if that passage had anything to do with Assurance (and it doesn't) it's still inherently subjective...

My claim is there is no OBJECTIVE way to know, and you are not establishing any OBJECTIVE way to know...
Only a SUBJECTIVE feeling/belief/conviction that the Spirit is talking to your spirit and giving you the warm-fuzzies...

That's not objective knowledge:

The "Spirit" testifies to the spirit of many a well-meaning and honest Christian that they are speaking in tongues to God's glory....
But they are wrong.

What makes you any different?
Why is their genuinely held belief invalid and yours is objectively true?

If the warm fuzzies you have were mistaken....how would you know?
Pentecostals have the warm fuzzies about what "the spirit" is doing for them when they speak in tongues.

Why are your warm fuzzies special? If they were wrong, how would you know?

One's genuinely held belief does not constitute objective knowledge that Jesus died for any particular person's sins. It is a subjectively held belief and nothing else.

No, you are wrong assurance of salvation has nothing to with Christ dying for all people

It has everything to do with it.

it is true that the Lord will save all those who call upon Him.

Yes.

And we know from the Word of God that those who call upon Him don't do it on their own accord.

Yes.... Irrelevant.

The Lord is the One who not only initiates but carries the whole process onto completion from first to last since He is the Author of our salvation.

Yes..... also irrelevant.

If your version of "objective knowledge" is "The Spirit bore witness with my Spirit".......than you have nothing but a subjective feeling or belief. Not objective Knowledge. Anyone should be able to see that. That's true by definition.

 

[Winman]

So you are saying that even saying a prayer calling upon the Lord is the Lord speaking through the person?

If Limited Atonement is true, and you are not one of the elect, you could call on Jesus every day of your life and he would not save you. God has already decided to pass by you before you were born, and Jesus did not shed his blood for you.

What you believe doesn't determine reality. As I have said several times now, you can believe a pistol is not loaded and put it to your head and pull the trigger. But if that pistol is loaded you are going to blow your brains out no matter how convinced you are it was not loaded.

Paul showed that faith does not determine reality in 1 Cor 15:14-17;

1 Cor 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Simply believing Jesus rose from the dead does not make it so. And if Jesus did not rise from the dead, then your faith is vain and will not save you.

Likewise, if Jesus did not die for you personally, then your faith is vain and will not save you. You will die in your sins because Jesus did not die for you.

You guys simply do not realize how messed up and illogical your doctrine really is.

No Calvinist who believes in Limited Atonement can know he is elect. Impossible.

 

[Inspector Javert]

If Limited Atonement is true, and you are not one of the elect, you could call on Jesus every day of your life and he would not save you.

Yes....you could also have a deeply felt and convincing belief that the Holy Spirit was in you and be mistaken about it. There would be no (objective) way to KNOW for sure.

 

[Winman]

Yes....you could also have a deeply felt and convincing belief that the Holy Spirit was in you and be mistaken about it. There would be no (objective) way to KNOW for sure.

They ain't fooling nobody, all you have to do is Google "how do I know if I am one of the elect?" and you will see page after page after page of Calvinists trying to figure out how they can know they are elect.

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...F-8#q=how do i know if i am one of the elect?

No Calvinist who believes in Limited Atonement can be certain he is one of the elect. If Limited Atonement is true, the likelihood is THEY AREN'T.

Again, nobody is fooled.

 

[Winman]

Read this heartbreaking article;

This pastor said that a woman wrote Him saying that she was terrified that she might not be one of God's Elect. She said that she knew that only the elect would be saved. She wanted to know how she could be sure. She said she has not been able to hardly sleep for six months. She said she has been tormented with blasphemous thoughts and had suffered continuously and wanted to know how she could be sure. She said she was about to go in the depression. He described it much worse than what I have written. It disturbed me just listening to Him and would make me want to repent of saying anything not found in the bible that would contribute to such mess as this.

The way this pastor describe her letter was horrible and He also said in his 40 years of preaching He has had several letters from people similar to this woman wanting to know how they could know they were one of God's elect.

I must ask what kind of fruit is this. I listen to some of this pastor's sermon and it seems like to me that some people worship their doctrine of election. It seems to be in all their preaching and all their conversation. This has answered what I had somewhat believed that the fruit of man's doctrine of election does not help anybody to be saved. Something that causes people to be tormented because they don't know if God loves them because they might not be God's elect does not come from God but from people who can't seem to break free from an idol, seemingly a doctrine of the devil and the devil loves to torment people.

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=24791&forum=35&9

Don't let these Calvinists blow smoke in your face, they are not nearly as certain as they pretend to be. They can't be if Limited Atonement is true.

 

[Van]

ALL sinners have hard hearts though, as none seek to do good, to seek after God!

This accurately reflects the Calvinist view of Romans 3:9-20. However, the passage uses OT quotes to make the case we all (Jews and Gentiles) are under sin.

1) No one is righteous. That is the correct understanding.
2) There are none who understand. Understand what? That by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
3) All have turned aside and become useless. That is the correct understanding, all have fallen short, we all have sinned.
4) There are none who does good. That is the correct understanding, all the unsaved works of righteousness are as filthy rags.
5) None of us control our tongue, we all think and speak sinful thoughts. That view is correct.
6) We fight, lash out and harm non-combatants. That view is correct.
7) We tread an unrighteous and wicked path. That view of the unsaved is correct. Being unsaved, they do not have the faith of Peace, nor is their behavior tempered by their fear of God.

Which brings us to the part of the passage that Calvinism rips out of context, "there is none who seeks for God." Calvinism asserts that no unsaved person seeks God at any time, but Romans 9:31 clearly teaches fallen men strive for the righteousness of God some of the time. So the idea is if you break even one point of the Law, it is as though you have broken the whole law, so none of the ones seeking the righteousness of God through the Law is actually seeking for God. This is the only view that is consistent with all scripture.

We are all born with sin natures, so we might harden it further, but we are already running away, not towards God!

Here we have another accurate expression of Calvinist doctrine. Yes we are conceived in iniquity and are by nature children of wrath. Our hearts are wicked and depraved.
But do we always, at all times, run from God? Nope. The rich young ruler came looking for how through works he could be saved. Right target, wrong path. Three of the four soils of Matthew 13 were seeking God to a degree. In Matthew 23:13 we have men actually "entering heaven" and thus were seeking God in an unsaved unregenerate, un-quickened state.

Thus the Calvinist doctrine of total spiritual inability is mistaken, the correct view is the fallen have limited spiritual ability, they can understand the milk of the gospel but cannot understand spiritual meat.

 

[Yeshua1]

This accurately reflects the Calvinist view of Romans 3:9-20. However, the passage uses OT quotes to make the case we all (Jews and Gentiles) are under sin.

1) No one is righteous. That is the correct understanding.
2) There are none who understand. Understand what? That by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
3) All have turned aside and become useless. That is the correct understanding, all have fallen short, we all have sinned.
4) There are none who does good. That is the correct understanding, all the unsaved works of righteousness are as filthy rags.
5) None of us control our tongue, we all think and speak sinful thoughts. That view is correct.
6) We fight, lash out and harm non-combatants. That view is correct.
7) We tread an unrighteous and wicked path. That view of the unsaved is correct. Being unsaved, they do not have the faith of Peace, nor is their behavior tempered by their fear of God.

Which brings us to the part of the passage that Calvinism rips out of context, "there is none who seeks for God." Calvinism asserts that no unsaved person seeks God at any time, but Romans 9:31 clearly teaches fallen men strive for the righteousness of God some of the time. So the idea is if you break even one point of the Law, it is as though you have broken the whole law, so none of the ones seeking the righteousness of God through the Law is actually seeking for God. This is the only view that is consistent with all scripture.

Here we have another accurate expression of Calvinist doctrine. Yes we are conceived in iniquity and are by nature children of wrath. Our hearts are wicked and depraved.
But do we always, at all times, run from God? Nope. The rich young ruler came looking for how through works he could be saved. Right target, wrong path. Three of the four soils of Matthew 13 were seeking God to a degree. In Matthew 23:13 we have men actually "entering heaven" and thus were seeking God in an unsaved unregenerate, un-quickened state.

Thus the Calvinist doctrine of total spiritual inability is mistaken, the correct view is the fallen have limited spiritual ability, they can understand the milk of the gospel but cannot understand spiritual meat.

t

We do understand the meat of the Bible though, and the problem for you is that you use the terms calvinist use, but you keep redefining them to fit your own pet theology!

calvinists do NOT teach that all siners cannot do any good works, or are not religious, alsey to find God, its just that they will create a god to follow that suits them, and that they will refuse to come to the real one, as they are ignorant of Him!

 

[salzer mtn]

1.)That passage has nothing to do with assurance of Salvation (it applies if, and only if the pre-supposition is held that one indeed IS saved, see the verses before it
Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Assurance is about knowing whether or not the conditions previously established in verse 9 are met.....The question is how do you know those conditions if you don't know who Jesus died for?

2.)Even if that passage had anything to do with Assurance (and it doesn't) it's still inherently subjective...

My claim is there is no OBJECTIVE way to know, and you are not establishing any OBJECTIVE way to know...
Only a SUBJECTIVE feeling/belief/conviction that the Spirit is talking to your spirit and giving you the warm-fuzzies...

That's not objective knowledge:

The "Spirit" testifies to the spirit of many a well-meaning and honest Christian that they are speaking in tongues to God's glory....
But they are wrong.

What makes you any different?
Why is their genuinely held belief invalid and yours is objectively true?

If the warm fuzzies you have were mistaken....how would you know?
Pentecostals have the warm fuzzies about what "the spirit" is doing for them when they speak in tongues.

Why are your warm fuzzies special? If they were wrong, how would you know?

One's genuinely held belief does not constitute objective knowledge that Jesus died for any particular person's sins. It is a subjectively held belief and nothing else.

It has everything to do with it.

Yes.

Yes.... Irrelevant.

Yes..... also irrelevant.

If your version of "objective knowledge" is "The Spirit bore witness with my Spirit".......than you have nothing but a subjective feeling or belief. Not objective Knowledge. Anyone should be able to see that. That's true by definition.

Why do people that don't believe in the Spirit bearing witness refer to it as the warm fuzzies or as one man always say's, hair standing up on your neck or goose bumps ? When people say they believed a certain scripture from the bible and this was their salvation, how do they know they believed it ? after all the heart is deceitful above all things. I will tell you why they believed it, the Spirit of God made this scripture alive to them, so therefore or in other words the Spirit bearing witness with your spirit.

 

[The Archangel]

Why do people that don't believe in the Spirit bearing witness refer to it as the warm fuzzies or as one man always say's, hair standing up on your neck or goose bumps ? When people say they believed a certain scripture from the bible and this was their salvation, how do they know they believed it ? after all the heart is deceitful above all things. I will tell you why they believed it, the Spirit of God made this scripture alive to them, so therefore or in other words the Spirit bearing witness with your spirit.

It's late...and I'm on a pretty strong pain killer for a tooth that is going south in a hurry (root canal #5 is coming up soon!). So, please forgive certain things, if necessary...

One issue that many evangelicals and Calvinists have is a discounting of the Spirit. It is, no doubt, a knee-jerk reaction against the charismatic understanding of things. There is the fear that if we discuss the Spirit and His working that we will begin speaking in tongues, etc.

A more proper understanding of the Spirit's work in conversion can be explained by the analogy of combustion. There are three elements that are required for combustion to occur: 1.) Ignition source; 2.) Fuel; and 3.) Oxygen. Having two of these elements will not produce combustion. All three elements must be present for combustion to occur.

It's the same way with conversion.

There must be the application of the Gospel to the heart by the Holy Spirit. He plays an active role in conversion (and I don't think there's too much disagreement here). But, the evidence of the Spirit is not a "warm and fuzzy." Rather, the evidence of the working of the Holy Spirit is conversion itself. This is, essentially, the point 1 John makes, especially certain arguments in chapters 3, 4, and 5. John has a series of if-then arguments that point to the the actions of the believer. If there is fruit of repentance and faith, it is evidence the Holy Spirit has worked to produce conversion.

The "proof" of salvation has always been the fruit of a changed life, not goose bumps or warm and fuzzies. These things are not observed over short periods of time, however.

Anyway...

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Yeshua1]

It's late...and I'm on a pretty strong pain killer for a tooth that is going south in a hurry (root canal #5 is coming up soon!). So, please forgive certain things, if necessary...

One issue that many evangelicals and Calvinists have is a discounting of the Spirit. It is, no doubt, a knee-jerk reaction against the charismatic understanding of things. There is the fear that if we discuss the Spirit and His working that we will begin speaking in tongues, etc.

A more proper understanding of the Spirit's work in conversion can be explained by the analogy of combustion. There are three elements that are required for combustion to occur: 1.) Ignition source; 2.) Fuel; and 3.) Oxygen. Having two of these elements will not produce combustion. All three elements must be present for combustion to occur.

It's the same way with conversion.

There must be the application of the Gospel to the heart by the Holy Spirit. He plays an active role in conversion (and I don't think there's too much disagreement here). But, the evidence of the Spirit is not a "warm and fuzzy." Rather, the evidence of the working of the Holy Spirit is conversion itself. This is, essentially, the point 1 John makes, especially certain arguments in chapters 3, 4, and 5. John has a series of if-then arguments that point to the the actions of the believer. If there is fruit of repentance and faith, it is evidence the Holy Spirit has worked to produce conversion.

The "proof" of salvation has always been the fruit of a changed life, not goose bumps or warm and fuzzies. These things are not observed over short periods of time, however.

Anyway...

Blessings,

The Archangel

Believe that it was CS lewis who stated that one day he walked to Oxford a sinner, and walked home from there saved...

Shows us that its the work of the Spirit to make sure we are getting saved, that the Cross benefits those chosen by God to be found in Christ!

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.