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questions about the church
- Thread starter bigczardaddy
- Start date
IMO and Just for the record : Both, but the word "universal" is not a precise enough word (if indeed there is one) to describe the Body of true born-again believers (past, present and future).
but for the benefit of the debate it will do for now.
I see the weight of Scripture on the side of the "universal" Church.
Matthew 16
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Ephesians 5
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Christ has One Body, one Bride, many members (assemblies).
HankD
4study,
I don't think Ive given it enough thought yet on that to give you a response that would do your question justice.
I have come across the idea in reading my Bible, but its been one of those things which I figured would be sorted out in the end. I will understand perfectly one day, just not this day!
I just don't want to come across as believing in some sort of "spooky" universal church that all religions are a part of. Perhaps sometimes I use the words interchangeably that some people take objection to......church and body of Christ, and what we will be considered in Heaven versus what we are now.
I don't think Ive given it enough thought yet on that to give you a response that would do your question justice.
I have come across the idea in reading my Bible, but its been one of those things which I figured would be sorted out in the end. I will understand perfectly one day, just not this day!
I just don't want to come across as believing in some sort of "spooky" universal church that all religions are a part of. Perhaps sometimes I use the words interchangeably that some people take objection to......church and body of Christ, and what we will be considered in Heaven versus what we are now.
HankD,
The words "one" and "universal" are not descriptive of the same aspect. "One" describes cardinality or uniqueness. "Universal" describes the composition.
If the church is universal, there are no qualities of relationship (i.e. everyone has the same kind of relationshipt with God). This is why I say there should be one big city in Revelation and no nations "walking in the light of it".
The words "one" and "universal" are not descriptive of the same aspect. "One" describes cardinality or uniqueness. "Universal" describes the composition.
If the church is universal, there are no qualities of relationship (i.e. everyone has the same kind of relationshipt with God). This is why I say there should be one big city in Revelation and no nations "walking in the light of it".
The bible never says Jesus died for a church.
The bible never says Jesus will return only for the church. Jesus will return for all the saints.
You are half right. The first half.
You are a member of the local body because you meet the membership requirements.
So am I. And I will also enjoy the fellowship of the honored guests.
The nail in the coffin of the "universal, invisible, mystical, church" theory is the contradictory commands (if the theory is correct). We are told to have unity in the church but then told to separate from the brother who walks in a disorderly manner. If the church is universal it is impossible to obey the second command. But, of the church is local and the Family of God is universal, then it is possible to obey the command and separate from the brother who walks in a disorderly manner.
If the "universal church" theory is correct, then the ecumenicals are right, we are wrong, and we own them an apology.
If the "universal church" theory is correct, then the ecumenicals are right, we are wrong, and we own them an apology.
4study,
baptist brider....to be extremely general and brief.....the belief that only those who are members of a local baptist church are in actuality a part of the "bride of Christ." All others CAN be saved through belief in Christ, and have real salvation, they just are not a part of the "bride."
I believe they also differentiate between the "true" body of Christ and the "church"
baptist brider....to be extremely general and brief.....the belief that only those who are members of a local baptist church are in actuality a part of the "bride of Christ." All others CAN be saved through belief in Christ, and have real salvation, they just are not a part of the "bride."
I believe they also differentiate between the "true" body of Christ and the "church"
While the word only in your response causes me to somewhat agree with you, because I do not hold that all believers in all ages are the church. It is also clear that Jesus was talking to and about the church in these verses. And not only to a local fellowship.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (New King James Version)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Bro Tony
Bro Tony,
I think we also have to be aware that there is a difference between talking about the church as "a body" as opposed to whether it's "local" or "universal".
I think you're insinuating this verse supports the "universal" idea. Yet Jesus is saying nothing here concerning the church's composition. For me, the problem with the concept of a "universal" church is the composition of the body (i.e. all believers are members of it).
I think we also have to be aware that there is a difference between talking about the church as "a body" as opposed to whether it's "local" or "universal".
LOL! Boy, are you easy! I was hoping you would post that verse. Just a couple of thoughts.
1. I am certain you know the difference between dying for something and giving yourself for something? I have given myself to the ministry of the Gospel for over 3 decades now, but I have not yet died for the gospel.
2. If that verse means Christ died for the church then are you going to follow the command of the first part of the sentence and die for your wife? No? Why not? Don't you love her? Don't you love Him? Aren't you obedient to His word? The answer, of course, is yes, you love her, yes, you love Him, and yes, you live an obedient life. You just don't die for her.
Or maybe it says that He gave Himself (in both life and death) for the church, his bride, and that he still, to this days is "ever living, making intercession for" her. And, if that is the case, then you must give yourself in life, living for your wife, interceding on her behalf, and loving her as Christ loved the church.
Isn't it wonderful when we let the bible speak for itself and don't change the words to try to make it fit our presuppositions?