questions about the church

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Bro Tony:
A distinction without a difference. Any local fellowship that has membership requirements that dont include being born again into the body of Christ--the church, is not a biblical church. They are just another religious organization.

I see. So, according to you the only requirement to be a member of the church you attend is to be born-again? You don't have to be baptized? You don't have to live a godly life? Your church accepts two people who are living together but are not married into membership? What about drunks? Whoremongers? Drug addicts? Homosexuals? Are you really telling me that the only requirement for membership in your church is that they say they are born again? I am sorry, but I highly doubt that.

Now, how about we stop dancing and get back to the issue. You said, "I am a member of the local body of believers only because I am a member of the Body of Christ, The Church through the shed blood of Jesus." Did you misspeak? Is there a difference between membership requirements in your church and in the Kingdom of God or the Family of God? I thought so too!

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Bro Tony:
To which local church was Jesus referring to here?

The only one that existed at that time, the one in Jerusalem.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Bro Tony:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (New King James Version)

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Yep. No mention of the church at all. Just all believers being caught up to be with Him.

 

[Bro Tony]

Now, how about we stop dancing and get back to the issue. You said, "I am a member of the local body of believers only because I am a member of the Body of Christ, The Church through the shed blood of Jesus." Did you misspeak? Is there a difference between membership requirements in your church and in the Kingdom of God or the Family of God? I thought so too!

No dancing I am baptist

If you read what I said I stated that I believe the church is not the kingdom of God or the whole family of God, but apart of them. Clearly, if one would read the New Testament without bias the Scripture deals with both the local church and the Church as a whole. To deny this is to ignore the Scripture. That you don't agree with the Scriptures I gave that they speak to this is your choice.

I do enjoy talking with people about their different views of the Scripture, but I don't enjoy speaking with one who is condescending in his attitude. Unfortunately, you have done this not only here but in dealing with issues with others. Why do you seem to have a problem just dealing decently with the discussion rather than having an attitude that turns people away. You and I can disagree, but let's drop the snooty attitude.

Thanks---

Bro Tony

 

[Bro Tony]

A distinction without a difference. Any local fellowship that has membership requirements that dont include being born again into the body of Christ--the church, is not a biblical church. They are just another religious organization.
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I see. So, according to you the only requirement to be a member of the church you attend is to be born-again?

Don't mis-state what I said. I never said the "only" requirement. Please notice an important word in my post (include). I am sure you know what that word means, it does not speak of the whole, but a crucial requirement. While a local church may require one to be baptized to be in their membership, and live a certain life, and even sign a church covenant, that is their local church polity. But those things have nothing to do with being a member of the Lord's Church His Body.

Bro Tony

 

[Bro Tony]

I think you're insinuating this verse supports the "universal" idea. Yet Jesus is saying nothing here concerning the church's composition. For me, the problem with the concept of a "universal" church is the composition of the body (i.e. all believers are members of it).

Great question. I have already stated that I dont believe that every believer from all time is a member of the Church. I dont equate OT believers as members of the Church. I would say they are in the Kingdom of God. As the members of the NT Church are in the Kingdom of God.

Would you say that all believers since Pentecost are a part of the Church?

Thanks.,

Bro Tony

 

[Bro Tony]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (New King James Version)

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

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Yep. No mention of the church at all. Just all believers being caught up to be with Him.
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Again, read what I wrote concerning this. To whom is Paul writing. The one the letter is addressed to clarifies who the information refers to.

Bro Tony

 

[Bro Tony]

Originally posted by Bro Tony:
Ephesians 5:25
"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,..."

I believe it does.

Bro Tony
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LOL! Boy, are you easy! I was hoping you would post that verse. Just a couple of thoughts.

I will make my response simple here so it cannot be missed. I certainly do believe this passage speaks of Christ's giving of Himself totally for the church. If His giving did not include His death & resurrection, then it is meaningless. Only Christ could give the Church what it needs that is a Savior who died for our redemption. The church is not some impersonal organization, but the body of those who have received Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

Bro Tony

 

[4study]

Bro Tony,

Would you say that all believers since Pentecost are a part of the Church?

No. But I think we're getting off the topic. As I understand, "universal" means all believers (and lets just say after Pentecost for our conversation) are members of the body of Christ. It's this idea I disagree with.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Bro Tony:
If you read what I said I stated that I believe the church is not the kingdom of God or the whole family of God, but apart of them.

I know. But the bible never uses that kind of language with the word "church."

Clearly, if one would read the New Testament without bias the Scripture deals with both the local church and the Church as a whole.

Clearly, if one would read the New Testament without bias the Scripture deals with the local church and the Family of God as a whole but never mentions a "universal church." Such language is foreign to the bible.

To deny this is to ignore the Scripture.

To deny this is to ignore the Scripture.

That you don't agree with the Scriptures I gave that they speak to this is your choice.

That you don't agree with the Scriptures is your choice.

I do enjoy talking with people about their different views of the Scripture, but I don't enjoy speaking with one who is condescending in his attitude.

I do enjoy talking with people about their different views of the Scripture, but I don't enjoy speaking with one who is condescending in his attitude.

Unfortunately, you have done this not only here but in dealing with issues with others.

Unfortunately, you have done this not only here but in dealing with issues with others.

Why do you seem to have a problem just dealing decently with the discussion rather than having an attitude that turns people away.

Why do you seem to have a problem just dealing decently with the discussion rather than having an attitude that turns people away?

You and I can disagree, but let's drop the snooty attitude.

You and I can disagree, but let's drop the snooty attitude.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Bro Tony:
Don't mis-state what I said. I never said the "only" requirement. Please notice an important word in my post (include). I am sure you know what that word means, it does not speak of the whole, but a crucial requirement. While a local church may require one to be baptized to be in their membership, and live a certain life, and even sign a church covenant, that is their local church polity. But those things have nothing to do with being a member of the Lord's Church His Body.

So, are you now withdrawing your comment that my statement was "A distinction without a difference?" You are a member of your local church because you meet more requirements than just being born-again? And, on that subject, does every member of your church meet that requirement of being born-again, and if so, how do you know?

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Bro Tony:
To whom is Paul writing. The one the letter is addressed to clarifies who the information refers to.

Yes, Paul is telling the church at Thessalonica that all the saints will be caught up, not just some of them, so their fears that they had missed the rapture, based on the false letter they received, were unfounded, which he deals with in detail in his next letter to them.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Bro Tony:
I certainly do believe this passage speaks of Christ's giving of Himself totally for the church. If His giving did not include His death & resurrection, then it is meaningless. Only Christ could give the Church what it needs that is a Savior who died for our redemption. The church is not some impersonal organization, but the body of those who have received Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

So, when are you going to give yourself for your wife in the same way that Christ gave Himself for the church?

 

[Bro Tony]

TCassidy,

In response to your first reply of your last three. That was the most childish display I have seen in a long time. The last time I saw that kind of mimic performance was from a third grader. Time to grow up brother. You can do better.

To the second response. Nothing has change in what I have said. You asked how do you know. I could ask you the same question even if one has passed all the local church requirements. How can you know for sure?

Thirdly, if he was teaching that all saints would be caught up it stands to reason that would include the church and not just the local one.

Bro Tony

 

[Bro Tony]

So, when are you going to give yourself for your wife in the same way that Christ gave Himself for the church?

Please read the verse again. The command is that I love my wife like Christ loved the church. He demonstrated that love by giving himself for her.

I do love my wife to that extent that I would give my life for her. As I would my kids. As I was willing to do for my country. But that is beside the point my life would not redeem hers, while Christ's sacrifice has brought us redemption. The ultimate expression of the Lord's love is expressed in His willingness to sacrafice his life for us. In that He did give Himself for her and not just to her (ie the church).

Bro Tony

 

[Deacon]

The word “church” doesn’t only mean a local assembly of believers.

There was one church in Judea and Galilee and Samaria or were there many churches there?

So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase. Acts 9:31 NAS

It’s obvious that the word can mean both a local assembly and a larger collective body of believers depending upon it’s context.

It’s also obvious (to some of us at least) that the word “church” is used as a metaphor for the whole body of Christ, the unity of believers in Christ.

Peter supports the idea of a united “church” of believers by calling us a “spiritual house for a holy priesthood” (1 Peter 2:5).

In Eph 5, the relationship between the husband and wife is compared to Christ’s love for the church. Just as a husband desires his wife to be pure and blameless, without spot or wrinkle so Christ desires to present Himself to the Church; He sanctifies us, (cleansing and purifying us).

The word "church" is a singular feminine noun.
Is it just coincidence that the word “Church”, (eκκλησίa in Greek) is feminine and singular? It adds to the imagery of Christ as a bridegroom of the Church, which includes believers of all ages (Luke 5:34,35).

What other metaphors are there for the general collection of all believers?

Rob

 

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by TCassidy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bro Tony:
To whom is Paul writing. The one the letter is addressed to clarifies who the information refers to.

Yes, Paul is telling the church at Thessalonica that all the saints will be caught up, not just some of them, so their fears that they had missed the rapture, based on the false letter they received, were unfounded, which he deals with in detail in his next letter to them. </font>[/QUOTE]You don't mean a "false lettter" do you? It was a misunderstood letter right?

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Bro Tony:
That was the most childish display I have seen in a long time.

Yes, I know. That's why I quoted you so often, to show you how childish your little tantrum was. I am gratified you got the message. I trust there will be no repetitions.

To the second response. Nothing has change in what I have said. You asked how do you know. I could ask you the same question even if one has passed all the local church requirements. How can you know for sure?

I don't and that is the point. The requirements for membership in the local church are entirely different from requirements for membership in the Family of God (which you mistakenly called the "universal church").

The Kingdom of God (hereafter KOG) is universal, the New Testament Church (hereafter NTC) is local.

The KOG is one. The NTC is many.

The KOG is invisible. The NTC is visible.

The KOG is entered via regeneration. The NTC is entered via baptism.

The KOG has all saved membership. The NTC might have some unsaved members.

The KOG has a permanent membership. The NTC has a membership that may be moved or even dropped altogether.

The KOG is a Theocracy. The NTC is a Democracy.

The KOG has no officers. The NTC has Pastors and Deacons.

The KOG has no ordinances. The NTC has baptism and the Lord's supper.

The KOG has no way to discipline an erring member. The NTC exercises church discipline.

Thirdly, if he was teaching that all saints would be caught up it stands to reason that would include the church and not just the local one.

It would include all saved members of the local churches. And there is no other kind of church.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Bro Tony:
Please read the verse again. The command is that I love my wife like Christ loved the church. He demonstrated that love by giving himself for her.

Actually it doesn't say "like" it says "as." We are to love our wives "just as" Christ loved the church, and give ourselves for her.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by Deacon:
The word “church” doesn’t only mean a local assembly of believers.

There was one church in Judea and Galilee and Samaria or were there many churches there? </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase. Acts 9:31 NAS

It’s obvious that the word can mean both a local assembly and a larger collective body of believers depending upon it’s context.</font>[/QUOTE]Bad news. The word in Acts 9.31 is "ekklhsiai" and is plural in the Greek and should be translated "churches." I am surprised the NASB did such a poor job of translating the Greek! It is usually one of the best of the modern versions.

It’s also obvious (to some of us at least) that the word “church” is used as a metaphor for the whole body of Christ, the unity of believers in Christ.

Well, it is obvious to at least some of us that the word "church" is sometimes used in the generic sense to mean "no church in particular, all churches in general."

Peter supports the idea of a united “church” of believers by calling us a “spiritual house for a holy priesthood” (1 Peter 2:5).

Yes, but he never calls that a church. In fact the bible calls that unity of all believers the Kingdom of God and the Family of God but never "the universal church."

In Eph 5, the relationship between the husband and wife is compared to Christ’s love for the church. Just as a husband desires his wife to be pure and blameless, without spot or wrinkle so Christ desires to present Himself to the Church; He sanctifies us, (cleansing and purifying us).

Yes, he certainly does. But that is not evidence of a universal church.

The word "church" is a singular feminine noun.
Is it just coincidence that the word “Church”, is feminine and singular? It adds to the imagery of Christ as a bridegroom of the Church, which includes believers of all ages (Luke 5:34,35).

I agree. The church is the bride of Christ. Wonderful metaphor! Faithful, loving, caring, nurturing. Amen!

What other metaphors are there for the general collection of all believers?

The ones the bible uses are "Kingdom of God" and "Family of God."