Questions and their Answers

[Protestant]

Question: Were men born again before Pentecost?

Darryl answers his question with a resounding NO.

Darryl: “No man was born again in the Old Testament.”

Darryl requires scriptural proof to the contrary. He can find no instances where the doctrine of ‘born again’ is realized in the Old Testament.

Darryl: “What is in the text [John 3:3] is that Christ makes a dogmatic assertion that no man will see the Kingdom of God except he be born again.”

Thus, if it can be proved an Old Testament saint saw the Kingdom of God, any professing Christian, including Darryl, should cease teaching what is contrary to the Word of our Lord.

Jesus, the King of the Kingdom, preached the Kingdom of God.

Jesus declared, Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56).

Ergo, Abraham was born again of the Spirit of God.

This is not rocket science. Nor does it require expertise in Greek. Check out your favorite Greek Interlinear to verify the Greek verb ‘see/saw’ is the same in both verses.

Darryl’s rebuttal to Jesus is as follows:

“So while many looked forward to the fulfillment of the promises of God, they could not place faith in the Risen Savior and be Eternally Redeemed. Abraham "...seeing Christ's day and rejoicing" refers to Abraham's knowledge that all the families of the earth would be blessed through his descendant. He was not privy to the Name of Jesus Christ and he was not privy to the Mystery of the Gospel:”

In Darryl’s mind, Jesus was remiss in using Abraham as an example of a saved, sanctified, eternally redeemed, believing child of God.

The Pharisees believed they were children of God descended from Abraham, their father, and God, their Father (John 8:33, 39, 41). In other words, they believed Abraham to be a child of God, as did Jesus, though they exceedingly erred in what they thought was their true spiritual status.

The Pharisees were not born of the Spirit. They were spiritually blind, unable to see what Abraham saw.

In fact, all men, including those OT saints born before Pentecost, are born spiritually blind and will remain so unless the grace of God miraculously opens their blind eyes to discern the spiritual things of God.

Therefore, since Abraham was born again before Pentecost, and is the father of all them that believe (Romans 4:11), those who are of faith are the children of Abraham (Galatians 3:7), born again by the Spirit of God, as was Abraham. For like begets like.

It matters not which side of Calvary the faith of Abraham came. We present day Christians are also of the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:29).

Hebrews 11 lists several prominent OT saints who were born again, justified and eternally redeemed prior to Pentecost.

Their faith was the same as Abraham’s justifying faith: they believed the revelation given them by God.

Their hope was placed in the promises of God, including that of a Messiah to come, whom God will provide.

Our hope is placed in the same promises of God, many of which are future, as well as in that of the promised Messiah who has already come; who is yet promised to come a second time at the end of the world.

NEXT: Were OT saints admitted to Heaven before Christ’s resurrection and ascension?

 

[One Baptism]

Question: Were men born again before Pentecost?

Darryl answers his question with a resounding NO.

Darryl: “No man was born again in the Old Testament.”

Darryl requires scriptural proof to the contrary. He can find no instances where the doctrine of ‘born again’ is realized in the Old Testament.

Darryl: “What is in the text [John 3:3] is that Christ makes a dogmatic assertion that no man will see the Kingdom of God except he be born again.”

Thus, if it can be proved an Old Testament saint saw the Kingdom of God, any professing Christian, including Darryl, should cease teaching what is contrary to the Word of our Lord.

Jesus, the King of the Kingdom, preached the Kingdom of God.

Jesus declared, Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56).

Ergo, Abraham was born again of the Spirit of God.

This is not rocket science. Nor does it require expertise in Greek. Check out your favorite Greek Interlinear to verify the Greek verb ‘see/saw’ is the same in both verses.

Darryl’s rebuttal to Jesus is as follows:



In Darryl’s mind, Jesus was remiss in using Abraham as an example of a saved, sanctified, eternally redeemed, believing child of God.

The Pharisees believed they were children of God descended from Abraham, their father, and God, their Father (John 8:33, 39, 41). In other words, they believed Abraham to be a child of God, as did Jesus, though they exceedingly erred in what they thought was their true spiritual status.

The Pharisees were not born of the Spirit. They were spiritually blind, unable to see what Abraham saw.

In fact, all men, including those OT saints born before Pentecost, are born spiritually blind and will remain so unless the grace of God miraculously opens their blind eyes to discern the spiritual things of God.

Therefore, since Abraham was born again before Pentecost, and is the father of all them that believe (Romans 4:11), those who are of faith are the children of Abraham (Galatians 3:7), born again by the Spirit of God, as was Abraham. For like begets like.

It matters not which side of Calvary the faith of Abraham came. We present day Christians are also of the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:29).

Hebrews 11 lists several prominent OT saints who were born again, justified and eternally redeemed prior to Pentecost.

Their faith was the same as Abraham’s justifying faith: they believed the revelation given them by God.

Their hope was placed in the promises of God, including that of a Messiah to come, whom God will provide.

Our hope is placed in the same promises of God, many of which are future, as well as in that of the promised Messiah who has already come; who is yet promised to come a second time at the end of the world.

NEXT: Were OT saints admitted to Heaven before Christ’s resurrection and ascension?

Solid.

 

[Darrell C]

If you have something against my teachings, don't be scared, let me know you are. No-one likes to be talked about behind his back.

Question: Were men born again before Pentecost?

Darryl answers his question with a resounding NO.

Actually, it is Scripture that resounds with a resounding no.

The New Birth was a Promise in the Old Testament:


Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Now, I will pose a couple questions for you:

1. Can men be born again and not believe in Christ's Death, burial, and Resurrection?

2. Can men be born again and not have the Life Christ came to bring?

3. Can men be born again and not be forgiven their sins on an eternal basis?

4. Can men be born again and not reconciled to God?

5. Can men be born again and not have the Eternal Indwelling of God?


Answer these questions, Protestant.

And they are open to anyone who would like to take up a defense for men being born again prior to Pentecost.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Darryl: “No man was born again in the Old Testament.”

Just one of the simple truths most who claim to be Christians are not aware of.

Seems to me that if the Lord makes entrance to the Kingdom of God demand New Birth, more Christians would better understand it and make it a priority.

The fact is that no man was eternally forgiven, or Eternally Redeemed in the Old Testament:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


What cause is in view when he writes "And for this Cause...?"


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Darryl requires scriptural proof to the contrary.

I demand Scriptural proof for every Doctrine presented by men.

And in regards to this topic, I have been debating it for a number of years now, and still...not one person has been able to present the New Birth in the Old Testament.

The reason is because Regeneration was a promise of God in the Old Testament, just as eternal remission and eternal indwelling were.

Now, look at Christ teaching of men being eternally indwelt by God here:


John 14:15-23
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Can you see that the Disciples of Christ were not indwelt by God the Father (v.23), the Son (vv.18, 20, 23), and the Holy Ghost (v.16)?

Again I ask you...can a man be born again and not eternally indwelt of God?


Romans 8:8-10
King James Version (KJV)

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


You will not change what Scripture teaches. The question is, why do you ignore the Word of Christ, when you are commanded to keep it?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

He can find no instances where the doctrine of ‘born again’ is realized in the Old Testament.

You misrepresent my teachings. I have never denied that the New Birth is spoken of in the Old Testament.

Quote me as presenting this concept, and I will show you the numerous posts in which I show the prophecy of the New Birth.
I can see now why you didn't want me to know about this thread. As I said, don't be scared, I am happy to talk to you about this subject. It is after all one of my favorites.

Darryl: “What is in the text [John 3:3] is that Christ makes a dogmatic assertion that no man will see the Kingdom of God except he be born again.”

And that is what we see:


John 3
King James Version (KJV)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


If you see something else, please point it out.

And I will remind you the Lord also said:


John 6:49-53
King James Version (KJV)

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Can you, Protestant, understand what these Jews did not understand?

Do you know how the Lord gave His flesh for men to eat? His blood that men might drink of it?

Do you understand why the fathers (including Moses) were...dead?

Do you understand why men who do not eat of His flesh and drink of His blood do not have Life?

Do you understand that the True Bread came down from Heaven that men might have eternal life?

That is Christ's teaching:


John 3:14-16
King James Version (KJV)

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


There is no new birth apart from believing on the Gospel of Christ, and the Gospel was not revealed during the Age of Law.

Nicodemus asks a question you need to ask yourself:


John 3:9-14
King James Version (KJV)

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:


How can Regeneration be?

Quite simple, the Lord answers this question for Nicodemus, who should have known that GOd had promised to raise Israel from the dead ((Ezekiel 36-37).


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Darryl: “What is in the text [John 3:3] is that Christ makes a dogmatic assertion that no man will see the Kingdom of God except he be born again.”

Thus, if it can be proved an Old Testament saint saw the Kingdom of God, any professing Christian, including Darryl, should cease teaching what is contrary to the Word of our Lord.

You need to include the rest of my teaching, rather than plucking out a statement out of context and creating a false argument by which you can set about trying to "prove" regeneration in the Old Testament, lol.

Syllogism is not a good way to draw conclusions.

Jesus, the King of the Kingdom, preached the Kingdom of God.

As a matter of fact He preached it was "at hand."

Now class, what does it mean when something is "at hand?"

Jesus declared, Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56).

And we know what it was Abraham understood:


Galatians 3:6-8
King James Version (KJV)

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


Abraham didn't know the Name of Jesus. He did not place his faith in a Risen Savior.

He simply believed God that He would give him a descendant from his own bowels (as opposed to a servant being his heir):


Genesis 12
King James Version (KJV)

1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


Genesis 15
King James Version (KJV)

1 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.


Romans 4:18-22
King James Version (KJV)

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.


Hebrews 11:17-19
King James Version (KJV)

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.



That is how "Abraham saw Christ's Day."

But what he did not know was this:


Galatians 3:16
King James Version (KJV)

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Abraham's faith and belief in God was based on the revelation provided him, which I have just listed for you. If you can find Abraham placing faith in the Risen Savior, when not even His Disciples did, then go ahead. I can save you a little time, it isn't there.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Jesus declared, Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56).

Ergo, Abraham was born again of the Spirit of God.

Syllogism, and...heresy.

No man received the life of Christ until Christ returned to Heaven:


John 16:7
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

This is not rocket science.

I agree. So why are you having such a hard time with these simple truths?

Nor does it require expertise in Greek.

I agree 100%: God gave His Word to men for the express purpose that they understand.

Again...why don't you?

Check out your favorite Greek Interlinear to verify the Greek verb ‘see/saw’ is the same in both verses.

It isn't going to matter, because it's a syllogistic argument to begin with:

Minor Premise: Thus, if it can be proved an Old Testament saint saw the Kingdom of God, any professing Christian, including Darryl, should cease teaching what is contrary to the Word of our Lord.

Major Premise: Men saw the Kingdom of God.

Conclusion: Men were born again in the Old Testament.

The conclusion is in error because the minor premise is in error.

While the Kingdom of God which is the rule of God in the hearts of believers has always existed, the Kingdom of God reconciled and regenerated believers are translated into was not present prior to the beginning of the Church, which began at Pentecost. The disciples, like Abraham, were men of faith, but, they were limited to the Revelation they had at the time. When you interpret Scripture and impose knowledge you have received, which they had not, you inevitably confuse yourself, and others, which is obvious in the weak arguments (which are mostly false to begin with) you try to present.

Again, it is no wonder you didn't want to draw my attention, but aren't glad the Lord directed me here?



See the Lord distinguish between these two Kingdoms:


Luke 7:28
King James Version (KJV)

28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.


Matthew 12:28
King James Version (KJV)

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.


This is the Kingdom we enter into when we are reconciled to God through the Cross:


Colossians 1:12-14
King James Version (KJV)

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:


Abraham has redemption in Christ Jesus as well, the only difference being, we are redeemed upon profession of faith, where as Abraham was redeemed postmortem:


Hebrews 9:12 & 15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


The most disturbing thing about this doctrine of men, which teaches men were redeemed apart from the Cross is...that they teach men were redeemed apart from the Cross.

There is nothing in Scripture to support the "saved on credit theory," so what it teaches is that men were eternally redeemed prior to the Cross, contrary to the Writer's statement above, as well as numerous other passages which teach men can only receive Eternal Life through Christ.

Read the Scripture, my friend, it is obvious to those who do not kick against the goads.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Darryl’s rebuttal to Jesus is as follows:

“So while many looked forward to the fulfillment of the promises of God, they could not place faith in the Risen Savior and be Eternally Redeemed. Abraham "...seeing Christ's day and rejoicing" refers to Abraham's knowledge that all the families of the earth would be blessed through his descendant. He was not privy to the Name of Jesus Christ and he was not privy to the Mystery of the Gospel:”

Actually that is a rebuttal to those ignorant of Salvation in Christ. If the sandal fits...

In Darryl’s mind, Jesus was remiss in using Abraham as an example of a saved, sanctified, eternally redeemed, believing child of God.

Your false arguments are shameful. Humorous, but shameful.

But, this is the typical response for those trying to "prove" regeneration prior to Pentecost. They cannot bring the first Scripture, so false arguments and insults are all they have.

The Pharisees believed they were children of God descended from Abraham, their father, and God, their Father (John 8:33, 39, 41).

And they were wrong, lol:


John 8:40-44
King James Version (KJV)

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


So a really, really, really...poor argument to present.

Secondly, just in case you would like to know how regeneration comes about, understand that men were not born of God until God began reconciling men unto Himself:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


It's right there, my friend. Those who believe on Jesus Christ are given the power to become the sons, children of God.

And no man knew that they must believe on the True Bread, which is Christ come down from Heaven to give His flesh for the life of the world...until He died, was buried, and rose again.

Embrace that simple truth and you will have embraced the Gospel of Jesus Christ as well:


1 Peter 1:3
King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

In other words, they believed Abraham to be a child of God, as did Jesus, though they exceedingly erred in what they thought was their true spiritual status.

Great, you are using the beliefs of the children of Satan to support your doctrine.

Go figure.

The Pharisees were not born of the Spirit.

Of course not, no man was born again prior to Pentecost.

They were spiritually blind, unable to see what Abraham saw.

So are you.

Abraham saw that God would bless all nations through his seed. But he did not know about The Seed.

In fact, all men, including those OT saints born before Pentecost, are born spiritually blind and will remain so unless the grace of God miraculously opens their blind eyes to discern the spiritual things of God.

You are teaching contrary to a simple truth, the Gospel of Jesus Christ was a Mystery, a hidden truth not made known in last Ages:


Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Therefore, since Abraham was born again before Pentecost, and is the father of all them that believe (Romans 4:11),

You therefore means nothing.

As I said, syllogism is not a good way to draw conclusions.

those who are of faith are the children of Abraham (Galatians 3:7),

And you ignore why Abraham had faith, and what his hope was, and that he did not receive the promises himself:


Galatians 3:6-8
King James Version (KJV)

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


The "Gospel" is truly found in "In thee shall all nations be blessed," however, we know that through the revelation provided to us. Abraham did not. Paul makes it clear what the Gospel said in v.8.

You make it say something altogether different.

born again by the Spirit of God, as was Abraham. For like begets like.

You view God as like unto men?

Exactly what kind of "Protestant" are you?

Men are not born again by the efforts of men in any way shape or form. The saying "children of Abraham" is no different than the children of Paul, who begot children in Christ:


1 Corinthians 4:15
King James Version (KJV)

15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Again, no man was born of God prior to Christ coming:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Are you one of those "free will" protestants? If so...

...sorry to hear that.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

For like begets like.

Heresy.

Men are born of God, and there is No-one like unto Him.

It matters not which side of Calvary the faith of Abraham came.

Mattered quite a bit to Abraham, who did not go into Heaven, but went into Sheol/Hades.

And it will matter to those this side of Pentecost who will go into the very presence of God when they die in Christ:


Hebrews 9:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


Hebrews 9:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


Hebrews 10:15-20
King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


Abraham is in Heaven now, but until the Lord dies in His stead, atoned for his sins, and reconciled him to God...he remained in Sheol/Hades.

Look back at Hebrews 9:9...

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Abraham was not made perfect.

He could not be until Christ died and arose, that is when he, along with us, received the promises of God and was made perfect:


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


The writer contrasts what those under Law came to, and what we come to. Abraham was a justified Old Testament Saint that died in faith...still awaiting redemption, just like all of Israel was when Christ appeared:


Luke 24:17-26
King James Version (KJV)

17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;

23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.

24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.

25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?


It's always been there. Now it's time to start paying attention to the Word of Christ.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

We present day Christians are also of the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:29).

Speak for yourself, I am a child of The King. A child of God.

In the sense that Abraham is said to be a father, we are more children of Paul than children of Abraham. It's just figurative language that does not nullify that Christians are children of God, whereas prior to Pentecost they were not.

Because they had not been reconciled to God and brought into eternal union with Him through the Eternal Indwelling of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

Hebrews 11 lists several prominent OT saints who were born again, justified and eternally redeemed prior to Pentecost.

Actually, it does not, it makes it clear that the Old Testament Saints had not received the promises:


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Take a closer look at one of the promises:


Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version (KJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Hebrews 10:1, 4
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


Hebrews 10:14-18
King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


The reason there is no more offering up of sacrifice is because the promise of God, eternal remission of sins, is fulfilled in Christ.

And Abraham did not receive this promise while he was alive.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Their faith was the same as Abraham’s justifying faith: they believed the revelation given them by God.

And only the Gospel of Christ revealed to the hearts of men directly by the Comforter can save on an eternal basis.

Abraham's faith, which was to believe God when He said He would give Abraham an heir through whom all nations would be blessed, is not the same as placing faith in Jesus because you believe He died in your stead, atoned for your sins, and is your only means of salvation.

This is Protestant error.

You deny the Holy Ghost's teaching through Paul that the Gospel of Christ was not revealed in past Ages.

Their hope was placed in the promises of God, including that of a Messiah to come, whom God will provide.

So all Jews who believe that Messiah is still coming in this Age...are saved through that hope?

Our hope is placed in the same promises of God,

I have no idea where your hope lies. My hope lies in the Lord Jesus Christ, Who died that I might live.

many of which are future,

Well, I would suggest you familiarize yourself with those that are currently received, and understand that Scripture makes it clear that those promises were not received by the Old Testament Saints.

There's enough Scripture in this thread alone to get you straight.

as well as in that of the promised Messiah who has already come; who is yet promised to come a second time at the end of the world.

And the problem is that you are not teaching faith in Christ, you are teaching it is acceptable to have faith in a coming Christ. If so, then you must equally apply that to Jews today who believe in the God of the Bible and believe Messiah will come for the first time.

NEXT: Were OT saints admitted to Heaven before Christ’s resurrection and ascension?

Can't wait.




God bless.

 

[Protestant]

Question: Were OT saints admitted to Heaven before Christ’s resurrection and ascension?

Darryl answers this question with a resounding NO.

Darryl: “John [the Baptist] was not translated into the Kingdom of God's dear Son until Christ died for Him.”

Darryl: “Old Testament Saints ………were not translated into the Kingdom established by Christ at His First Coming.”

Darryl: “…..no man was eternally redeemed in the Old Testament.”

Darryl: “The Old Testament Saints died not having received the promises given, and it was not until Christ died that their sins were redeemed:”

This doctrine, which places OT saints into an intermediate state between Heaven and Hell prior to Christ’s atonement, has its origin in the many grave errors perpetrated by the Jesuits during the Protestant Reformation era.

Due to the numerous editions of the vernacular New Testament in English published by the Protestant Reformers, the Roman Catholic Church was compelled to respond with their own English translation in 1582. This was the Rheims New Testament.

In order to combat the Protestant glosses which refuted the fallacious teachings of the Catholic Church, the Rheims Bible was composed with a translation and accompanying commentaries affirming their heresies.

This, in turn, necessitated a response from the Protestants. Thomas Cartwright, a Puritan Protestant theologian of Cambridge, was unanimously chosen by his peers to write a refutation which he entitled, “A Confutation of the Rhemists Translation, Glosses and Annotations, So Farre As They Containe Manifest Impieties, Heresies, Idolatries, Superstitions, Profanesse, Treasons, Slanders, Absurdities, Falsehoods And Other evills. By Occasion Whereof the True Sence, Scope, and Doctrine of the Scriptures , and Humane Authors, by Them Abused, is Now Given.”

I have in my library a digitized copy of the original 1618 publication, as well as a recent soft bound modern-spelling publication of the original 1582 Rheims New Testament.

I now cite the Rheims scriptures and annotations by which the Jesuits teach the same error proposed by Darryl 436 years later.

Matthew 3:16….And JESUS being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo the heavens were opened to him; and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him.

Annotation: “To signify heaven was shut in the old law, till Christ by his Passion opened it, and so by his Ascension was the first to enter into it: contrary to the doctrine of the Heretics. See Hebrews 9:8 & 11:40.”

The Heretics spoken of here are the Protestant Reformers who, unlike their antagonists, did not believe in Purgatory or a Limbus patrum where OT saints resided until Christ’s ascension. Rather, the Reformers taught that upon their death OT saints were immediately translated into the presence of God in Heaven.

Sadly, TCassidy has erred in falsely positing a Protestant Purgatory as a doctrine promulgated by the Protestants. Nothing could be farther from the truth, as will be shown shortly.

Hebrews 9:8….The holy Ghost signifying this, that the way of the holies was not yet manifested, the former tabernacle as yet standing.

Marginal Note: “The way to heaven was not open before Christ’s Passion, and therefore the Patriarchs and good men of the Old Testament were in some other place of rest until then.”

Hebrews 11:40….God for us providing some better things, that they without out should not be consummate.

Annotation: “The Fathers before Christ could not be accomplished, that is, not admitted to the heavenly joys, vision, and fruition of God, till the Apostles and other of the new law [who] were associate with them, and the way to everlasting glory opened by our Lord’s death and Ascension.”

Luke 16:22….And it came to pass that the beggar died, and was carried of the Angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.

Marginal Note: “Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom, and rest: but both in hell, and not in the kingdom of heaven before Christ.”

Annotation: “The Bosom of Abraham is the resting place of all them that died in perfect state of grace before Christ’s time, heaven before[hand] being shut to men. It is called in Zachariah, a lake without water, and sometimes a prison, but most commonly of the Divines Limbus patrum, for that it is thought to have been the higher part or brim of Hell…….Where this mansion of the fathers stood, or whether it be any part of Hell, St. Augustine doubteth; but that there was such a place he nor no Catholic man ever doubted; as all the fathers make it most certain, that our Saviour descended to Hell, went thither specially, and delivered the said fathers out of that mansion. [The Jesuits then cite Church Fathers who allegedly believed this]…..which truth and place through all the ancient writers confessed and proved by this and other Scriptures: yet the Adversaries deny it (as they do Purgatory) most impudently.”

NEXT: The Protestant Response

 

[Darrell C]

Question: Were OT saints admitted to Heaven before Christ’s resurrection and ascension?

Darryl answers this question with a resounding NO.

Actually, it is the Bible that answers this question, and I have given my own Biblical presentation to start a discussion on that point (and I am removing the quote code so you again have an opportunity to address it):


Mattered quite a bit to Abraham, who did not go into Heaven, but went into Sheol/Hades.

And it will matter to those this side of Pentecost who will go into the very presence of God when they die in Christ:


Hebrews 9:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


Hebrews 9:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


Hebrews 10:15-20
King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


Abraham is in Heaven now, but until the Lord dies in His stead, atoned for his sins, and reconciled him to God...he remained in Sheol/Hades.

Look back at Hebrews 9:9...

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Abraham was not made perfect.

He could not be until Christ died and arose, that is when he, along with us, received the promises of God and was made perfect:


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Darryl: “John [the Baptist] was not translated into the Kingdom of God's dear Son until Christ died for Him.”

It's just a basic truth you should already know.

Of course, if you want to show me where we see Jew and Gentile made one in Christ in the Old Testament, I'd be happy to look at it.

But since no such Scripture exists, you should consider giving what the Word of God actually teaches (as opposed to what the men you follow teach) some consideration:


Galatians 3:22-28
King James Version (KJV)

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


Do you see what the Reformers missed?

The Faith of Jesus Christ was not present while the Law was in effect.

The Faith of Christ is shown to have now come.

And it is through Faith in Christ that men are made one in Christ, hence there is now no longer Jew nor Greek.

You do understand that there was Jew and Greek (Gentile) during Christ's Ministry to Israel, don't you?


Matthew 10
King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Again, class, if something is "at hand," what does that mean?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Darryl: “Old Testament Saints ………were not translated into the Kingdom established by Christ at His First Coming.”

This is correct.

That is why Christ preached "The Kingdom is at hand," lol.

Darryl: “…..no man was eternally redeemed in the Old Testament.”

That is correct:

Hebrews 9:12 & 15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance


The Gospel teaches that Christ came and saved men. Your gospel preaches men can be saved apart from Christ dying on the Cross and rising from the dead.

Darryl: “The Old Testament Saints died not having received the promises given, and it was not until Christ died that their sins were redeemed:”

My other brother is again correct:


Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version (KJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Hebrews 10:1, 4
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


Hebrews 10:14-18
King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Darryl believes the same thing Darrell does.




Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Darryl: “The Old Testament Saints died not having received the promises given, and it was not until Christ died that their sins were redeemed:”

This doctrine, which places OT saints into an intermediate state between Heaven and Hell prior to Christ’s atonement, has its origin in the many grave errors perpetrated by the Jesuits during the Protestant Reformation era.

No, Protestant, it has it's origin in Scripture. If you tool the time to read the Books of the Bible instead books about the Bible, you might understand that.

And it has nothing to do with Purgatory.

Due to the numerous editions of the vernacular New Testament in English published by the Protestant Reformers, the Roman Catholic Church was compelled to respond with their own English translation in 1582. This was the Rheims New Testament.

Maybe you should have started a thread called "Why I am a Protestant," or, "Bowing down before men."

This doctrine, which places OT saints into an intermediate state between Heaven and Hell prior to Christ’s atonement, has its origin in the many grave errors perpetrated by the Jesuits during the Protestant Reformation era.

Due to the numerous editions of the vernacular New Testament in English published by the Protestant Reformers, the Roman Catholic Church was compelled to respond with their own English translation in 1582. This was the Rheims New Testament.

In order to combat the Protestant glosses which refuted the fallacious teachings of the Catholic Church, the Rheims Bible was composed with a translation and accompanying commentaries affirming their heresies.

This, in turn, necessitated a response from the Protestants. Thomas Cartwright, a Puritan Protestant theologian of Cambridge, was unanimously chosen by his peers to write a refutation which he entitled, “A Confutation of the Rhemists Translation, Glosses and Annotations, So Farre As They Containe Manifest Impieties, Heresies, Idolatries, Superstitions, Profanesse, Treasons, Slanders, Absurdities, Falsehoods And Other evills. By Occasion Whereof the True Sence, Scope, and Doctrine of the Scriptures , and Humane Authors, by Them Abused, is Now Given.”

I have in my library a digitized copy of the original 1618 publication, as well as a recent soft bound modern-spelling publication of the original 1582 Rheims New Testament.

I'm not involved in the Catholic/Protestant nonsense.

That men did not go to Heaven is made pretty clear by Christ and the Writer of Hebrews.

Stop reading books about the Bible, particularly books by men who have the same spirit you have, which is to create doctrine because of your intense dislike for someone else.

You are truly a Protestant, and of the same spirit they were. Anyone that creates doctrine just to spite someone else has no business teaching the children of God.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I now cite the Rheims scriptures and annotations by which the Jesuits teach the same error proposed by Darryl 436 years later.

Matthew 3:16….And JESUS being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo the heavens were opened to him; and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him.

Annotation: “To signify heaven was shut in the old law, till Christ by his Passion opened it, and so by his Ascension was the first to enter into it: contrary to the doctrine of the Heretics. See Hebrews 9:8 & 11:40.”

And?

You want to show me where the Protestant heretics find men going to Heaven in the Old Testament? Or show why the Scripture already given doesn't show that no man came into the presence of God until Christ opened the way?

The Heretics spoken of here are the Protestant Reformers who, unlike their antagonists, did not believe in Purgatory or a Limbus patrum where OT saints resided until Christ’s ascension. Rather, the Reformers taught that upon their death OT saints were immediately translated into the presence of God in Heaven.

You bear false witness. Nothing in anything I have said endorses purgatory.

And yes, I agree with the Catholic heretics, denying men didn't go to Heaven is heresy.

Sadly, TCassidy has erred in falsely positing a Protestant Purgatory as a doctrine promulgated by the Protestants. Nothing could be farther from the truth, as will be shown shortly.

I doubt that very much. But, if you will bear false witness against one, you'll bear false witness against anyone.

Hebrews 9:8….The holy Ghost signifying this, that the way of the holies was not yet manifested, the former tabernacle as yet standing.

Marginal Note: “The way to heaven was not open before Christ’s Passion, and therefore the Patriarchs and good men of the Old Testament were in some other place of rest until then.”

Well, one has to be able to understand what the Tabernacle represented. It was the only way men could come into the presence of God. This is because the way into His true presence was not yet opened.

The Scripture given shows that very clearly.

Hebrews 11:40….God for us providing some better things, that they without out should not be consummate.

Annotation: “The Fathers before Christ could not be accomplished, that is, not admitted to the heavenly joys, vision, and fruition of God, till the Apostles and other of the new law [who] were associate with them, and the way to everlasting glory opened by our Lord’s death and Ascension.”

First, the word "consummate" translates refers to being made complete. The Old Testament Saints were not made complete in regards to the context the word is found in. And one of the ways the Old Testament Saints were not complete is in regards to remission of sins.

So the teaching of the Protestant heretics is that men who had not yet been forgiven their sin...went to Heaven.

That's great. Now, if only you had Scripture that verified that, and didn't have Scripture that explicitly teaches men didn't go to Heaven.

You reject the Lord's teaching itself.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Luke 16:22….And it came to pass that the beggar died, and was carried of the Angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.

Marginal Note: “Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom, and rest: but both in hell, and not in the kingdom of heaven before Christ.”

That is what Christ taught. And I would like to see the text that states "...he was buried in Hell."

Luke 16:22….And it came to pass that the beggar died, and was carried of the Angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell.

Marginal Note: “Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom, and rest: but both in hell, and not in the kingdom of heaven before Christ.”

Annotation: “The Bosom of Abraham is the resting place of all them that died in perfect state of grace before Christ’s time, heaven before[hand] being shut to men. It is called in Zachariah, a lake without water, and sometimes a prison, but most commonly of the Divines Limbus patrum, for that it is thought to have been the higher part or brim of Hell…….Where this mansion of the fathers stood, or whether it be any part of Hell, St. Augustine doubteth; but that there was such a place he nor no Catholic man ever doubted; as all the fathers make it most certain, that our Saviour descended to Hell, went thither specially, and delivered the said fathers out of that mansion. [The Jesuits then cite Church Fathers who allegedly believed this]…..which truth and place through all the ancient writers confessed and proved by this and other Scriptures: yet the Adversaries deny it (as they do Purgatory) most impudently.”

Neither were in Hell. They were in Hades, the resting place of the dead prior to the Cross.

Secondly, no man was in "a perfect state of Grace" in the Old Testament.

That is the point of Hebrews 11:13 and 11:39-40, they died not having received the promises, that they, without us, should not be made perfect," or, "complete."

They died not having received the Atonement through which men are reconciled to God. They were not eternally indwelt, nor were they baptized into Christ.

There was no "one man in Christ then."

Forego the books about the Bible and get into the Books of the Bible.

NEXT: The Protestant Response

Can't wait.




God bless.