Questions and their Answers

[steaver]

Correct except just like NC believers the second part after the birth from above is sanctification.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Now you are changing up the subject again. We are not discussing sanctification after rebirth. We are discussing circumcision of the heart whether or not it is the same as the rebirth. So after three tries I must assume you cannot defend your position. I will not try a fourth time.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Either you honestly do not understand Matt 19:28 is speaking of the regeneration of the new heavens and new earth and not the individual regeneration spoken of the rebirth, or you think that I do not and are trying to deflect again so you do not have to answer.

Just in case you really do not know the regeneration we are speaking of, I will give you the reference which speaks to our actual subject matter....

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" (Titus 3:5)

 

[HankD]

Now you are changing up the subject again. We are not discussing sanctification after rebirth. We are discussing circumcision of the heart whether or not it is the same as the rebirth. So after three tries I must assume you cannot defend your position. I will not try a fourth time.



Either you honestly do not understand Matt 19:28 is speaking of the regeneration of the new heavens and new earth and not the individual regeneration spoken of the rebirth, or you think that I do not and are trying to deflect again so you do not have to answer.

Just in case you really do not know the regeneration we are speaking of, I will give you the reference which speaks to our actual subject matter....

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" (Titus 3:5)

the full realization of the regeneration impacts the entire earth possibly the entire universe.
It starts with the sons of God in the here and now, the material world awaiting our resurrection and the glory to follow.

Romans 8
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[steaver]

the full realization of the regeneration impacts the entire earth possibly the entire universe.
It starts with the sons of God in the here and now, the material world awaiting our resurrection and the glory to follow.

Romans 8
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Of course. But the subject was regeneration of the spirit, not the body. I think you have always been a good honest poster here, but you know you are off topic from my points. That's ok, because I already know there is no defense for OT rebirth doctrine found in the scriptures. Blessings!

 

[HankD]

Of course. But the subject was regeneration of the spirit, not the body. I think you have always been a good honest poster here, but you know you are off topic from my points. That's ok, because I already know there is no defense for OT rebirth doctrine found in the scriptures. Blessings!

Ditto on the blessings

 

[SovereignGrace]

What I am seeing is two ppl high-fiving each other’s heresy. No one is saved w/o being regenerated. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him for righteousness. No one declared righteous is not born again.

 

[HankD]

What I am seeing is two ppl high-fiving each other’s heresy. No one is saved w/o being regenerated. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him for righteousness. No one declared righteous is not born again.

Which two people SG?

I believe OT believers were regenerated

 

[SovereignGrace]

Which two people SG?

I believe OT believers were regenerated

DarrellC & ole steaver.

 

[HankD]

DarrellC & ole steaver.

Thanks

 

[steaver]

What I am seeing is two ppl high-fiving each other’s heresy.

Here we go! Any Christian who argues against Calvinism is a heretic! I'm a four point heretic myself, I only sign on to OSAS.

No one is saved w/o being regenerated.

I would argue this is false in part, but it does not make you a heretic, I'm sure you are a well meaning Christian who loves God and loves your neighbor. Abraham was not regenerated and was being saved through faith awaiting the Savior to come onto the seen to pave the way to enter into heaven, for before the atonement for sin and the glorification of Jesus Christ "no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Abraham believed God and it was credited to him for righteousness.

Absolutely!

No one declared righteous is not born again.

No one could be righteous without the atonement of Jesus Christ. Otherwise, Jesus did not need to die for anyone's sin, He could have just declared Abraham righteous and be done. Abraham's faith reserved his place in righteousness and had to wait in Paradise, just like all the other believers, until Jesus Christ paid the atonement and was raised again to glory. "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

Now after the cross and the glorification of Jesus Christ regeneration happens instantly upon faith in Jesus Christ. Before then, the Living Water had not yet been given (John 7).

"He that believeth on me", Abraham believed on Him/Messiah, but seen Him yet to come. Longed to see His day"

"...as the scripture hath said", Pretty much all through, especially Isaiah.

"...out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." The Spirit of life, the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, Eternal life which will be Christ in you and now is Christ in you.

"...(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive": Should recieve, have not yet, why?

"...for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

 

[SovereignGrace]

Here we go! Any Christian who argues against Calvinism is a heretic! I'm a four point heretic myself, I only sign on to OSAS.

This not a Cal vs. Arm thing. It's about remaining consistent with the scriptures...from Genesis 1:1--->Revelation 22:21.

If the shoe fits...

I would argue this is false in part, but it does not make you a heretic, I'm sure you are a well meaning Christian who loves God and loves your neighbor. Abraham was not regenerated and was being saved through faith awaiting the Savior to come onto the seen to pave the way to enter into heaven, for before the atonement for sin and the glorification of Jesus Christ "no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

So, Enoch and Elijah went to heaven, while still alive, went to heaven in an unregenerate state? That is what you're advocating. Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him for righteousness.[Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, and James 2:23{James 2:23 even says Abraham was God's friend}] No unregenerate person meets those qualifications. No unregenerate person is saved, no unregenerate person has been credited with righteousness, no unregenerate person is God's friend.

Absolutely!

No one could be righteous without the atonement of Jesus Christ. Otherwise, Jesus did not need to die for anyone's sin, He could have just declared Abraham righteous and be done. Abraham's faith reserved his place in righteousness and had to wait in Paradise, just like all the other believers, until Jesus Christ paid the atonement and was raised again to glory. "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

All the OT saints were saved. All the OT saints possessed the Spirit of God. God lives in the eternal now. He can see us already in heaven, He can still see Adam in the Garden. He sees all things at once. So the OT saints were saved and regenerate.

Now after the cross and the glorification of Jesus Christ regeneration happens instantly upon faith in Jesus Christ. Before then, the Living Water had not yet been given (John 7).

"He that believeth on me", Abraham believed on Him/Messiah, but seen Him yet to come. Longed to see His day"

"...as the scripture hath said", Pretty much all through, especially Isaiah.

"...out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." The Spirit of life, the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, Eternal life which will be Christ in you and now is Christ in you.

"...(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive": Should recieve, have not yet, why?

"...for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3 that no one could see the Kingdom of God UNLESS they are born again. This is regeneration. Forget about entering it, they could not even see it, unless they were born again. When Nicodemus said this “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” Jesus said “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

First, Jesus tells Nicodemus no one can SEE the Kingdom of God unless they are born again[regenerated]. Then He said no one ENTER the Kingdom of God unless they are born again[regenerated].

Now, why did Jesus tell Nicodemus "You should not be surprised at my saying, 'you must be born again'? Because he was a teacher of Israel and should have known this already. That is why Jesus was roasting him. He did not know what he should have known...BEING BORN AGAIN[REGENERATED] IS NOT A NEW TESTAMENT ONLY OCCURANCE.

 

[steaver]

So, Enoch and Elijah went to heaven, while still alive, went to heaven in an unregenerate state?

Let us ask Jesus, ""no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Now, why did Jesus tell Nicodemus "You should not be surprised at my saying, 'you must be born again'? Because he was a teacher of Israel and should have known this already. That is why Jesus was roasting him.

Ok, tell me why Nicodemus, a master of Israel, should have known this? Where was it found in the Scriptures, that he should have known?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Let us ask Jesus, ""no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

In Matthew 17, Mark 9, and Luke 9, when Jesus showed Peter, James, and John Himself in His glorified body, Elijah and Moses also appeared with Him. Enoch in Genesis 5:24 was taken up by God. These were with God in heaven.

Ok, tell me why Nicodemus, a master of Israel, should have known this? Where was it found in the Scriptures, that he should have known?

In John 8:56, it says Abraham longed to His day, and saw it. It says in Genesis 15:6 Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him for righteousness. Now, whose righteousness was this? It was not Abraham’s, as his, and also our’s is as filthy garments[used menstrual cloth][Isaiah 64:6]. So, it had to be the Christ’s righteousness reckoned to him. Then in 2 Chronicles 30, we can read ”So the couriers passed from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh, and as far as Zebulun, but they laughed them to scorn and mocked them. Nevertheless some men of Asher, Manasseh and Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem. The hand of God was also on Judah to give them one heart to do what the king and the princes commanded by the word of the LORD.”[vss 10-12]

So, we can see regeneration as a work of God at work already in His ppl.

 

[Protestant]

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Like Nicodemus, Steaver asks ‘How can it be that OT saints were born of the Spirit?

Unlike Nicodemus, Steaver does not claim to be a master of the Israel of God.

Nor does Steaver acknowledge the context of verse 13, a necessary and essential hermeneutic, which would give him its correct meaning.

Simply put, Christ is comparing His wisdom and Deity with Nicodemus’ lack of wisdom and carnality.

Unlike Nicodemus, Christ has the authority to teach heavenly doctrines because He is the Son of God, who resides in the bosom of God, who has all-knowledge of the things of God, and who has come down from Heaven to Earth.

By this Christ admits His Deity and omniscience (as well as His immanence).

‘To ascend to Heaven’ is a metaphor describing one who has intimate knowledge of the divine mysteries of God.

Please refer to Proverbs 30: 1-4.

‘Born again from above’ is a heavenly doctrine, confusing to those bereft of the Spirit of God.

 

[steaver]

In Matthew 17, Mark 9, and Luke 9, when Jesus showed Peter, James, and John Himself in His glorified body, Elijah and Moses also appeared with Him. Enoch in Genesis 5:24 was taken up by God. These were with God in heaven.

As a bible student, you have to explain and harmonize these two seemingly contradicting acts. If these two were with God in Heaven before Jesus led captivity captive, then you have to explain why Jesus said no man has entered into heaven before He Himself descended from heaven. All you do is keep insisting Jesus is wrong when He said, "no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven"

In John 8:56, it says Abraham longed to His day, and saw it.

Nicodemus would only have information provided in the OT scriptures. But since you brought this up, we do know that Abraham died in faith WITHOUT receiving the promises (Heb 11:13,39) What promises did he NOT receive?

It says in Genesis 15:6 Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him for righteousness. Now, whose righteousness was this? It was not Abraham’s, as his,

It was HIS faith.

and also our’s is as filthy garments[used menstrual cloth][Isaiah 64:6].

Yes, except our faith is not as filthy rags.

So, it had to be the Christ’s righteousness reckoned to him.

Yes, because of his faith.

”So the couriers......The hand of God was also on Judah to give them one heart to do what the king and the princes commanded by the word of the LORD.”[vss 10-12] So, we can see regeneration as a work of God at work already in His ppl.

You honestly believe this is speaking of the rebirth???

I do not see where you answered my question. Tell me why Nicodemus, a master of Israel, should have known this? Where was it found in the Scriptures, that he should have known?

 

[utilyan]

"That's nice, but it does not support your idea that circumcision of the heart equals born again. You have dodged it twice now....here it is again...."


I don't know what the debate is.....I'm just being nosey.



Colossians 2

11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

Philippians 3
2Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision; 3for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,


12Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.



Deuteronomy

6“Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

^If you don't like Jews your gonna hate this one.


Romans 2

28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 

[steaver]

Like Nicodemus, Steaver asks ‘How can it be that OT saints were born of the Spirit?

I don't believe I would ask this since I know there was no such thing as born-again before Jesus was crucified, buried, raised again to life and glorified. See John 7, it's very clear.

‘To ascend to Heaven’ is a metaphor describing one who has intimate knowledge of the divine mysteries of God.

Please refer to Proverbs 30: 1-4.

Yes, let's refer to Prov 30...

"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended?"

Your answer would be Elijah and Moses and all the saints who died in faith. But then we have Jesus explaining to you that you are wrong. Just like Nicodemus, Jesus would ask you, are you a teacher of Christ and you do not know these things? Before Jesus led captivity captive...."no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven"

‘Born again from above’ is a heavenly doctrine, confusing to those bereft of the Spirit of God.

But you believe Nicodemus should have known this doctrine and that Jesus was scolding him for not knowing. He should have known this from the OT scriptures, right? Can you show us from the OT scriptures why Nicodemus, master of Israel, should have known this?

 

[steaver]

I don't know what the debate is.....I'm just being nosey.

We are discussing how one must be born again in order to enter into heaven and when this began. You wouldn't have anything to add since you believe one doesn't even need to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved.

If you don't like Jews your gonna hate this one.

Are you saying you don't like Jews?

 

[SovereignGrace]

steaver, you are stating ppl were saved w/o being born again. Without having the Spirit of God within them. Let that sink in.

 

[steaver]

steaver, you are stating ppl were saved w/o being born again. Without having the Spirit of God within them. Let that sink in.

It's all about implementations on God's timeline. All are saved by grace through faith. The indwelling Spirit did not begin until Jesus Christ was glorified. John 7. Neither will you find the concept of "saved" in the OT as it relates to the Spirit indwellement.

Have you noticed no one has shown from the OT scriptures why Nicodemous should have known about the rebirth.

 

[SovereignGrace]

It's all about implementations on God's timeline. All are saved by grace through faith. The indwelling Spirit did not begin until Jesus Christ was glorified. John 7. Neither will you find the concept of "saved" in the OT as it relates to the Spirit indwellement.

Have you noticed no one has shown from the OT scriptures why Nicodemous should have known about the rebirth.

Well, you and I are finito. God, for whatever reason, has turned you over to some depraved, wicked, theology, and you will not listen to reason. You will be placed on ignore, as I don't want to interact with theology like yours.

Please do not ever respond to me again. Thanks.