Questions for Adventist

[timtofly]

If I understand your question correctly (as it is asked a little oddly), the answer is, I must be found in Christ Jesus, at the end of the anti-typical Day of Atonement, to have my sins blotted out.

The Holy Spirit seals from conception to death. There is no personal day of Atonement, especially if you deny osas.

There was only one day of Atonement and it covered both the OT and the NT in the same instant. There is no personal blotting out of sin. There is confession of sin on a daily basis.

If someone lives their whole life under God’s grace, and then at the last minute renounce God's Atonement, God can accept their own works salvation. They will then remove themselves from God's Atonement, removing their name from the Lamb's book of life. It is still a personal choice from birth to death.

That is the failure of calvanism, in taking away choice and relying solely on doctrine. What condition constantly makes one choose every second of their life? It is not a work of constant update, not even in practice. But if one never makes the choice not even once because they may be elect from birth, nullifies calvanism which cannot discern between choice and predestination.

Those on the oposite view are just unable to know, even though multiple verses claim we can know, because God does know us, not just us knowing ourselves.

No one gets it right because a doctrine is a statement which no one wants to go against for fear of loosing their salvation over a doctrine. That is an impossibility as a doctrine does not save, thus cannot break one's salvation.

The Atonement is simply an acceptance that God alone can be our Atonement. It is nothing that we can ever do, except accept. Because in rejecting, Atonement cannot work.

 

[Alofa Atu]

What if you decided to not accept Ellen White as being inspired, not the IJ as being in Bible?

Again, I, who know the truth of the matter from scripture, would be culpable, and as such, become an apostate to Truth, and if unrepented of, become forever lost. This says nothing of others, but only myself. God judges based upon knowledge, etc (John 3:19; James 4:17).

 

[Alofa Atu]

...There was only one day of Atonement and it covered both the OT and the NT in the same instant. ...

When and what do you believe such was? Provide the scripture please.

 

[Protestant]

The Holy Spirit seals from conception to death. There is no personal day of Atonement, especially if you deny osas.

There was only one day of Atonement and it covered both the OT and the NT in the same instant. There is no personal blotting out of sin. There is confession of sin on a daily basis.

If someone lives their whole life under God’s grace, and then at the last minute renounce God's Atonement, God can accept their own works salvation. They will then remove themselves from God's Atonement, removing their name from the Lamb's book of life. It is still a personal choice from birth to death.

That is the failure of calvanism, in taking away choice and relying solely on doctrine. What condition constantly makes one choose every second of their life? It is not a work of constant update, not even in practice. But if one never makes the choice not even once because they may be elect from birth, nullifies calvanism which cannot discern between choice and predestination.

Those on the oposite view are just unable to know, even though multiple verses claim we can know, because God does know us, not just us knowing ourselves.

No one gets it right because a doctrine is a statement which no one wants to go against for fear of loosing their salvation over a doctrine. That is an impossibility as a doctrine does not save, thus cannot break one's salvation.

The Atonement is simply an acceptance that God alone can be our Atonement. It is nothing that we can ever do, except accept. Because in rejecting, Atonement cannot work.

With all due respect, I read your post carefully, word for word, and haven't a clue what you are talking about.

 

[timtofly]

When and what do you believe such was? Provide the scripture please.

Luke 23:45-46
45 And the Sun was darkened, and the veil of the Temple rent through the midst.
46 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and said, Father, into thine hands I commend my spirit. And when he thus had said, he gave up the ghost.

Mark 15:37-39
37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
38 And the veil of the Temple was rent in twain, from the top to the bottom.
39 Now when the Centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he thus crying gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Matthew 27:50-53

50 Then Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up the ghost.
51 And behold, veil of the Temple was rent in twain, from the top to the bottom, and the earth did quake, and the stones were cloven.
52 And the graves did open themselves, and many bodies of the Saints, which slept, arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

John 19:28-30

28 ¶ After, when Jesus knew that all things were performed, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, he said, I thirst.
29 And there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar: and put it about an Hyssop stalk, and put it to his mouth.
30 Now when Jesus had received of the vinegar, he said, It is finished, and bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

 

[Protestant]

In reverse chiasm:

Answer: I (as a Seventh-day Adventist, and thus also 'we') do not ever have to "avoid the clear teachings of the Scriptures" (cited or uncited) on any matters. The question has a built in assumption (namely that I ("we") are avoiding something) which is incorrect. Condemnation and Probation are two differing things, not antagonistic to one another, but in harmony. Condemnation is for those out side of Christ Jesus. Probation is for those in Christ Jesus. For instance, a man convicted of a crime and sitting in jail is not under probation, but condemnation. A man released, though having committed a crime previous, but due to leniency (grace) is set free, is a free man, but under probation, not condemnation.

So, Romans 8:1, "no condemnation" is not antagonistic to probation. I ("we") believe that those in Christ Jesus, under probation, are not under condemnation as Romans 8:1 and elsewhere states. A perfect case of this is found in Matthew 18:21-35. The man was forgiven the whole debt, no longer under condemnation as was when brought before His Lord, but set free, and under probation. Several commentaries (non-Seventh-day Adventist) also agree with our position (which is non-OSAS, IG, etc).

All non-Seventh-day Adventists on this board are not OSAS, IG, etc and some will not agree with you, but with our position. Seventh-day Adventist, teach scriptural "assurance", but that "assurance" is separate from the non-scriptural idea of OSAS. I (right now) have assurance. I do not ever need the OSAS mindset to believe and know that I have the assurance. I (right now) have the "earnest" of the Holy Ghost. I do not yet have the fullness thereof, and though I (presently) have the "earnest", I may grieve this Person away, as had King Saul (OT) and Ananias and Sapphira (NT), among others. The "earnest" is not irrevocable (again Matthew 18, etc).

Eternal life (John 3:15, 6:54, 10:28, 12:25, 17:2-3; Romans 6:23; 1 Timothy 6:12; 1 John 5:11,13,20, etc) is always found in Christ Jesus. If I am not in Christ Jesus, I do not have eternal life. So long as I am in Christ Jesus, I have eternal life (even while under probation).

1Jn_5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.​

I must always be in Christ Jesus to have this "eternal life". Other texts show the same, that probation exists using such words as (physical and spiritual):

Luke 18:30 - "in the world to come life everlasting"
Romans 2:7 - "seek for"
Romans 5:21 - "unto"
1 Timothy 6:19 - "time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life"
Titus 1:2 - "In hope of eternal life"
Jude 1:21 "unto"
etc.
​

The crown of righteousness, being eternal life, is in the hands of Jesus Christ right now, as He must hold it, until such time as He comes (for the very moment I sin here (as Adam before), the devil would take all away from me that Christ Jesus had gained, but thank God that Jesus holds it (crown) in my stead for now). Paul did not yet have this crown (nor yet still, until after his resurrection), but had the promise of it:

2Ti_4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
​

In other words, eternal life is a present reality, under probation (not condemnation), and yet during this time of probation the possibility (not necessity) exists that the Crown may be given unto another (Revelation 3:11), the Holy Ghost depart forever from me (Ephesians 4:30; even that which David feared, Psalms 51:11, ie the "great transgression" - Psalms 19:13; Matthew 12:32), and I yet be in a worse condition than when I was before Christ Jesus (Hebrews 6:1-12).

I ("we') have no argument with the koine Greek, or with the simple KJB English. I agree with both, as the eternal life is always contingent, iow, conditional (as it was with Adam, Lucifer), and is always connected to faith/living-working faith (Romans 14:23; James 2 (entire); Hebrews 11:6)

Yes, I ("we") agree wholeheartedly with Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:4-8, etc. Saved by (God's) grace through Faith (and that a gift from God to be exercised), but notice "works" are not excluded, but must be understood in their right place.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
​

No one may 'work' their way to Heaven, by any means. All enter through the "Door" (Christ Jesus) or not at all. The "works" described is neither works of the law (Galatians 3:5), neither works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19), nor works of the devil (1 John 3:8), and neither to be saved, but that which stems from God, "good works" (Matthew 19:17; Mark 18:10; Luke 18:19, "good") in Salvation, in other words while Justified (by God, in Christ Jesus), as the fruit, not the root, thereof. The "good" "fruit" of the "good works" of the tree, only demonstrate what the tree actually is. Stapling "fruit" onto a tree, does not alter the trees nature. Only God can do that (change the trees nature). That is His part. But it is not God only which has a part. Mankind, in Christ Jesus, also has their (our) part. Living/working faith. Salvation/Redemption is a co-partnership with God, Notice:

Joh_15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Php_4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.​

Obedience to the commands of God, is not for salvation (Romans 4:5). It (obedience by and through His strength provided at Calvary, Romans 5:6; Revelation 12:10) is the fruit of Salvation. It is the outworking of that which God has done and is doing in the heart. Therefore, I ("we") cannot even claim any of the "good works" as of ourselves in Salvation. Yet, we have our part to do, by taking hold of that which God provided (as God giveth the increase, 1 Corinthians 3:7).

Gal_5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.​

Thus "faith" can only "work" by "love". It is as two legs on a man. A man can have both, but without "love" they will still be impotent (though having legs, but legs that are unable to move), see the crippled at the Temple (Acts 3:6). The Crippled had two legs, but they were impotent. This is what James refers to in His material, in the 2nd chapter thereof. See Revelation 2:4-5. To leave the "love" is to become as a man with two legs (faith/works), but impotent and unable to walk uprightly (fallen into sin).

Thank you for your extensive, detailed and sincere reply.

We non-Adventist Christians understand a simple, yet direct and straightforward Gospel which does not require complex reasoning.

Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you and your [believing] household shall be saved.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life,

Repent and believe the Gospel.

Whosoever believeth on him shall be not be ashamed.

Our all-wise God does not need another probation to test man’s obedience. Adam and Eve sufficed as a lesson for us all.

The Lord knows the condition of man’s heart.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Jesus knows it.

But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

Our gracious God sovereignly blessed His people with new hearts……hearts which would love and obey His two commandments: love God and neighbor.

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

We non-Adventist Christians understand salvation is all of the Lord.

We love Him because He first loved us.

That love is forever. His love never fails, nor is it probationary.

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

 

[Alofa Atu]

Luke 23:45-46
45 And the Sun was darkened, and the veil of the Temple rent through the midst.
46 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and said, Father, into thine hands I commend my spirit. And when he thus had said, he gave up the ghost.

Mark 15:37-39
37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
38 And the veil of the Temple was rent in twain, from the top to the bottom.
39 Now when the Centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he thus crying gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Matthew 27:50-53

50 Then Jesus cried again with a loud voice, and yielded up the ghost.
51 And behold, veil of the Temple was rent in twain, from the top to the bottom, and the earth did quake, and the stones were cloven.
52 And the graves did open themselves, and many bodies of the Saints, which slept, arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

John 19:28-30

28 ¶ After, when Jesus knew that all things were performed, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, he said, I thirst.
29 And there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar: and put it about an Hyssop stalk, and put it to his mouth.
30 Now when Jesus had received of the vinegar, he said, It is finished, and bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Calvary was fulfillment of Passover (exact hour, day, month and year), not Day of Atonement (Lev 16 & 23) which had another exact hour, day, month and year (Revelation 9:13-15).

Passover is spring. Day of Atonement is fall. Two differing days, two differing seasons, two differing purposes, two differing elements (sacrifice (bought) & high priest (brought)).

3 Places of the Sanctuary:

[1] Outer court (earth, where sacrifice takes place)

[2] Holy Place (Heaven)

[3] Most Holy Place (Heaven)​

Two works of the Real Sanctuary (Hebrews 8:2):

[1] Lamb (Outer court), earth (John 1:29,36)

[2] Priest (Holy & Most Holy Place), Heaven (Hebrews 4:14-16)​

Two phases of work, in Leviticus 25:51,55

[1] bought (1 Peter 1:18-19)

[2] brought (1 Peter 3:18), to perfection​

Calvary/Passover is the Sacrifice. Day of Atonement is the High priest, which happens long after Jesus ascends.

Jesus Christ is the God of order [1 Corinthians 14:40], not of confusion [1 Corinthians 14:33], but rather of perfect timing [Ecclesiastes 3:17]. He leads from beginning [alpha/first/author] unto the ending [omega/last/finisher], in that order, never going out of order. Christ Jesus Himself gave the times and seasons of the feasts themselves in Leviticus 23[:4] onward, and elsewhere all connected with the Sanctuary [Psalms 77:13] and also in types elsewhere, even from the Exodus [Psalms 77:19] from Egypt to Canaan, and so on.

Spring Feasts:

Passover: Leviticus 23:5 [Jesus dies AD 31, First Month - Abib/Nisan 14th, the 6th Day, 3 PM]

"...even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us..." 1 Corinthians 5:7;p

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Romans 5:6

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Revelation 12:10​

Feast of Unleavened Bread: Leviticus 23:6-8 [Jesus in the Tomb, Abib/Nisan 15th, the 7th Day]

Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 1 Corinthians 5:8​

Feast of Firstfruits [Wave Sheaf]: Leviticus 23:10-14 [Jesus resurrected, Abib/Nisan 16th, 1st day]

But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. 1 Corinthians 15:20

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23​

Christ Jesus could not become the "Firstfruits" until Resurrected. Please, please consider this point most carefully. Moreso, Christ Jesus, did not become Great High Priest until after the Resurrection and [2nd] Ascension:

For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Hebrews 7:26​

Pentecost [Feast of Weeks]: Leviticus 23:15-22 [Jesus, in the Holy Place, pouring of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:1-3,33, etc Revelation 5:6; Psalms 133:1-3, etc]

Moreso, we know this, because the Great High Priest had to be anointed by the oil [Holy Spirit], as in the OT [Leviticus 8:12; Psalms 133:1-3], and thus we see the fulfillment in Acts 1-3; Revelation 5:6, etc. Yet, He could not be anointed until there were 12, as the Great High Priest bore 12 upon the Breastplate of Judgment, and thus the scripture had to be fulfilled as Peter said:

And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. Acts 1:13

These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. Acts 1:14

And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) Acts 1:15

Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. Acts 1:16

For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Acts 1:17

Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. Acts 1:18

And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. Acts 1:19

For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take. Acts 1:20

Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Acts 1:21

Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. Acts 1:22

And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. Acts 1:23

And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, Acts 1:24

That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. Acts 1:25

And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. Acts 1:26​

And then, there were 12. And then the Holy Spirit was poured out upon Jesus in Heaven [Revelation 5:6] [the Head], and flowed down to the Body on earth, even upon the mountain [Psalms 133:1-3], and there is more [for even unto the 'foot', the remnant, the last part of the body alive at the end, now].​

Long Summer

Fall Feasts:

Feast Of Trumpets: Leviticus 23:24-25 [Jesus, announcing coming Judgment, about to move, the bell is heard (5 months, Revelation 9:5,6,10; Luke 1:24; Genesis 7:24, 8:3, from Pentecost unto Trumpets), 1833/4, Miller goes forward (10 days/years unto 1844, the 40th year from 1793 (Revelation 11:9,11), 10 more making 50 years to the Jubilee of 1844), Advent movement, etc]

Day Of Atonement: Leviticus 23:27-32 [Jesus in the Most Holy Place, 1843/44, specifically Oct 22 1844, the bell is heard, Jesus and Father moved from Holy to Most Holy in Heavenly Sanctuary; Daniel 8:13-14,26; Revelation 9:13-15, etc]

Feast of Booths/Tabernacles/Ingathering: Leviticus 23:34-43 [Harvest, and on into Millennium and then into eternity; Revelation 7:9, 14:14-20]
​

 

[Alofa Atu]

...We love Him because He first loved us.

That love is forever. ...

Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

God's love is not in question (except by satan). It is our love that is (John 14:15; Exodus 20:6).

 

[Alofa Atu]

Thank you for your extensive, detailed and sincere reply.

You are welcome, really.

We non-Adventist Christians understand a simple, yet direct and straightforward Gospel which does not require complex reasoning.

Well as a Seventh-day Adventist, it is all connected and glorious. It is quite simple, all based upon God's own design, Psalms 77:13.

Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you and your [believing] household shall be saved.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life,

Repent and believe the Gospel.

Whosoever believeth on him shall be not be ashamed.

All good texts. All teach that God has a part and we have a part. "Believeth".

Our all-wise God does not need another probation to test man’s obedience. Adam and Eve sufficed as a lesson for us all.

The Lord knows the condition of man’s heart.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Jesus knows it.

But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

As I have stated before, the probation of those in Christ Jesus, is not for God's knowledge. It is for ours and the unfallen worlds, and even as a witness to the fallen angels.

 

[Dave G]

God's love is not in question (except by satan). It is our love that is (John 14:15; Exodus 20:6).

The true believer's love for Jesus Christ is tested by trials and tribulations.
Here is the test of a true believer:

" Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." ( 1 John 1:15 ).

If any fall away, then the love of the Father was not in them.

 

[Alofa Atu]

The true believer's love for Jesus Christ is tested by trials and tribulations.
Here is the test of a true believer:

" Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." ( 1 John 1:15 ).

If any fall away, then the love of the Father was not in them.

The OSAS (Calvinist) mindset does not seem to be able to distinguish between present, past and future tenses, nor experiences.

The text of 1 John 1:15 is speaking of present tenses, "love", "is not", not of past experiences. The text of 1 John 1:15 does not say, that "If any man love the world (present tense) the love of the Father was never (past tense unto present tense) in him."

The OSAS mindset must mentally add those words ("never"), and mentally take away from what God stated (by the Holy Ghost's inspiration).

 

[alexander284]

What happens to non-believers when they die?

What happens to believers when we die?

What exactly is "hell?"

 

[Alofa Atu]

What happens to non-believers when they die?

Depends upon the "death" referred to.

This may be of help:

Non-believers are already 'dead' in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1; Colossians 2:13), which is spiritually 'dead'.

If referring to (non-believer) dying in general (old age, heart attack, etc):

[1] 'first death' (before the 1000 years), persons return to dust, and are considered 'asleep in the dust of the earth, or grave, etc' (Job 14:10-12,21; Ecclesiastes 3:19-20, 6:6, 9:5-6,10) until their respective resurrection (some special wicked are raised in the special resurrection (before the 1000 years, before the general resurrection of the righteous at Jesus second advent (1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; John 5:25)), see Daniel 12:2; Revelation 1:7; Matthew 26:64; Mark 14:62) and there is also the second great resurrection (end of the 1000 years; John 5:29)

*There are two special class types mentioned in scripture (*can be addressed later), which exist because of sin, which do not receive a resurrection, and God mercifully lets these classes pass to nothing (no hellfire, no heaven) (advice: Matthew 19:12, "... He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.", as some struggle with the knowledge of this truth).​

[2] 'second death' (after the 1000 years), persons are consumed by fire unto ashes and become nothing, are unmade, 'oblivion', 'annihilation', 'cease to exist' (Revelation 2:11, 20:6,14, 21:8; Jude 1:12; Psalms 7:9, 37:10,20,28,38, 68:2; Obadiah 1:16, etc.)​

What happens to believers when we die?

Believers can never truly 'die' (second death), but only sleep (first death) in the grave (Job 17:13) until their respective resurrection (either in the special, where some specific righteous come up; Daniel 12:2,12; Revelation 14:13; all the faithful who have died under the third angels message (Revelation 14:9-12)) or general first great resurrection (at the start of the 1000 years; Revelation 20:4; John 5:29)

*Several specific exceptions (to the resurrections mentioned above), which include:

[1] Jesus (already raised, and entered into Heaven in glorified body)
[2] Moses (raised by Jesus, and entered into Heaven with glorified body (Luke 9:31; 2 Peter 1:17; Romans 5:14; Jude 1:9))
[3] Firstfruits (raised at Jesus own resurrection, glorified and taken back to Heaven; Matthew 27:51-53; Ephesians 4:8; Psalms 68:18, etc)

Some have fallen into death (sleep), like Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, Widow of Nain's son, Widow of Zarephath's son, Shunamite's woman's son, the man in the grave whom Elisha's bones were cast upon, the valley of bones, Tabitha/Dorcas, Eutychus, when raised from their 'sleep' (grave), lived and eventually fell on sleep (death) again, and await their respective resurrection as noted above.​

The reason there is a first and second death, and that even the non-believer, gets to partially partake of this benefit, is because of Jesus' promise from Genesis 3:15, in which He stepped in to take man's place and split death into two, and thus all in Adam the first can share in that, but it is only those in last Adam (Jesus) that escape the second death.

What exactly is "hell?"

Depends on the context wherein the word is used, and from which word the word is a translation for (Hebrew (sheol) or koine Greek (hades, gehenna, tartarus)).

"hell" generally means a pit/hole/grave or deep part of the earth (Psalms 16:10, 30:3,9, 49:15, 89:48, 139:8; Proverbs 1:12; Isaiah 5:14; Matthew 10:28; Acts 2:27,31; Revelation 1:18, etc). English uses the word as burying potatoes, or placing them in a hole, as in 'helling potatoes'. Which is where English also gets the phrase 'hellhole'.

"hell" can also refer to the place of burning in the earth that is now present (since the days of Noah, *more as needful). It also refers to that which is to come at the end (Matthew 5:29; Mark 9:43; James 3:6, etc) in which temporary (Revelation 20:13) "torment" (Matthew 8:29) exists unto the second death.

"hell" can also refer to the darkness (no light, 3rd Heaven has no darkness) into which the evil angels were cast, when cast out of 3rd Heaven (2 Peter 2:4; single use "ταρταρωσας" (tartarwsas)) before coming to this earth.

I hope that was helpful. There are hundreds more references not given, so as not to overwhelm the readers. If there needs to be any clarifications, please ask.

 

[Yeshua1]

If I understand your question correctly (as it is asked a little oddly), the answer is, I must be found in Christ Jesus, at the end of the anti-typical Day of Atonement, to have my sins blotted out.

So you must continue to hold to sabbath, keep Dietary, accept Ellen White as inspired in order to keep saved?

 

[Yeshua1]

The "if" you present, would actually place blame upon the Holy Ghost Himself, unless I choose to ignore the Holy Ghost (and thus not remember on purpose, in which case I would be a lost person, clinging to known, but choosing to not acknowledge them, sins). The Holy Ghost has His part also:

Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh_16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:​

I cannot of myself remember all things (John 15:5). It is God which brings things to my remembrance, for God is true, the faithful witness, and the true record.

Job_16:19 Also now, behold, my witness is in heaven, and my record is on high.​

I, who know the truth of the matter from scripture, would be culpable, and as such, become an apostate to Truth, and if unrepented of, become forever lost. This says nothing of others, but only myself. God judges based upon knowledge, etc (John 3:19; James 4:17)

Yet, the question doesn't seem to understand the matter, as I am to worship God in/on every day (Exodus 20:8-11) as the 4th commandment commands. For instance, I (we as Seventh-day Adventists) gather together on many days of the week, not just on Sabbath (the 7th day). There is nothing wrong with gathering together on Sunday, but Sunday is not the Sabbath. There will yet be the issue of the Mark of the Beast being enforced soon, and thus that will be the issue. Obeying a command not of God, in the place of God's command.

So if you were to stop observing Sabbath, lost, and will get destroyed in end?

 

[Yeshua1]

Depends upon the "death" referred to.

This may be of help:

Non-believers are already 'dead' in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1; Colossians 2:13), which is spiritually 'dead'.

If referring to (non-believer) dying in general (old age, heart attack, etc):

[1] 'first death' (before the 1000 years), persons return to dust, and are considered 'asleep in the dust of the earth, or grave, etc' (Job 14:10-12,21; Ecclesiastes 3:19-20, 6:6, 9:5-6,10) until their respective resurrection (some special wicked are raised in the special resurrection (before the 1000 years, before the general resurrection of the righteous at Jesus second advent (1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; John 5:25)), see Daniel 12:2; Revelation 1:7; Matthew 26:64; Mark 14:62) and there is also the second great resurrection (end of the 1000 years; John 5:29)

*There are two special class types mentioned in scripture (*can be addressed later), which exist because of sin, which do not receive a resurrection, and God mercifully lets these classes pass to nothing (no hellfire, no heaven) (advice: Matthew 19:12, "... He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.", as some struggle with the knowledge of this truth).​

[2] 'second death' (after the 1000 years), persons are consumed by fire unto ashes and become nothing, are unmade, 'oblivion', 'annihilation', 'cease to exist' (Revelation 2:11, 20:6,14, 21:8; Jude 1:12; Psalms 7:9, 37:10,20,28,38, 68:2; Obadiah 1:16, etc.)​

Believers can never truly 'die' (second death), but only sleep (first death) in the grave (Job 17:13) until their respective resurrection (either in the special, where some specific righteous come up; Daniel 12:2,12; Revelation 14:13; all the faithful who have died under the third angels message (Revelation 14:9-12)) or general first great resurrection (at the start of the 1000 years; Revelation 20:4; John 5:29)

*Several specific exceptions (to the resurrections mentioned above), which include:

[1] Jesus (already raised, and entered into Heaven in glorified body)
[2] Moses (raised by Jesus, and entered into Heaven with glorified body (Luke 9:31; 2 Peter 1:17; Romans 5:14; Jude 1:9))
[3] Firstfruits (raised at Jesus own resurrection, glorified and taken back to Heaven; Matthew 27:51-53; Ephesians 4:8; Psalms 68:18, etc)

Some have fallen into death (sleep), like Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, Widow of Nain's son, Widow of Zarephath's son, Shunamite's woman's son, the man in the grave whom Elisha's bones were cast upon, the valley of bones, Tabitha/Dorcas, Eutychus, when raised from their 'sleep' (grave), lived and eventually fell on sleep (death) again, and await their respective resurrection as noted above.​

The reason there is a first and second death, and that even the non-believer, gets to partially partake of this benefit, is because of Jesus' promise from Genesis 3:15, in which He stepped in to take man's place and split death into two, and thus all in Adam the first can share in that, but it is only those in last Adam (Jesus) that escape the second death.

Depends on the context wherein the word is used, and from which word the word is a translation for (Hebrew (sheol) or koine Greek (hades, gehenna, tartarus)).

"hell" generally means a pit/hole/grave or deep part of the earth (Psalms 16:10, 30:3,9, 49:15, 89:48, 139:8; Proverbs 1:12; Isaiah 5:14; Matthew 10:28; Acts 2:27,31; Revelation 1:18, etc). English uses the word as burying potatoes, or placing them in a hole, as in 'helling potatoes'. Which is where English also gets the phrase 'hellhole'.

"hell" can also refer to the place of burning in the earth that is now present (since the days of Noah, *more as needful). It also refers to that which is to come at the end (Matthew 5:29; Mark 9:43; James 3:6, etc) in which temporary (Revelation 20:13) "torment" (Matthew 8:29) exists unto the second death.

"hell" can also refer to the darkness (no light, 3rd Heaven has no darkness) into which the evil angels were cast, when cast out of 3rd Heaven (2 Peter 2:4; single use "ταρταρωσας" (tartarwsas)) before coming to this earth.

I hope that was helpful. There are hundreds more references not given, so as not to overwhelm the readers. If there needs to be any clarifications, please ask.

You do know that not of what you are saying here as biblical support, correct?

 

[Dave G]

The OSAS (Calvinist) mindset does not seem to be able to distinguish between present, past and future tenses, nor experiences.

To me, the loss of salvation ( "Arminian" ) mindset does not seem to be able to distinguish between "wheat" and "tares" ( Matthew 13 ).
They always appear to see that anyone that professes Christ outwardly, really was saved, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and was actually placed within the spiritual "body of Christ" ( body of believers, His true sheep ) by God...

When there are, in reality, two forces at work in the spiritual realm, not one:


1) God, who chooses a people for Himself ( Psalms 65:4, John 6:37-40, Mark 13:20, John 6:44, John 6:64-65, John 17:2, Acts of the Apostles 2:47, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8:28-32, Romans 9, Ephesians 1:4-13, Ephesians 2:10, 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus1:1, 1 Peter 1:2 ), keeps them by His own power and grace ( 1 Peter 1:5, John 5:24, John 6:39, John 6:44, John 10:28-29 ) and their eternal life was always a guarantee...they actually have an inheritance reserved in Heaven for them ( 1 Peter 1:4 ), and their salvation is and never was "probationary", but is a sure thing.

But it is only a sure thing for those who have continued in the faith and have never been moved away from the hope of the Gospel...
I.E. those that have been born from above.


2) Satan, who plants false "believers" within the earthly, physical body of Christ ( sows "tares" among the "wheat", Matthew 13:24-30, Matthew 13:36-43 ) and who seeks to trouble God's children in any way that he can...
With false teachers ( 1 Peter 2 ) and false brethren.

Salvation is not and never was a sure thing for those who profess Christ with the lips, but in works they deny Him;
For those who have a form of godliness, but deny the power of it in their lives;
For those who show who they really are by abandoning Jesus Christ when trials come along, or who abandon Christ to follow after what they really love...
This world and it's ways.


The Lord Jesus Himself describes this difference between genuine believers and false believers in the Parable of the Sower ( Matthew 13:3-9, Matthew 13:18-23 ) and in many other places in His word, and what those results would look like to the discerning eye.
That's why He followed up the parables and other spiritual truths with this:

" Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." ( Matthew 13:9 ).

Why?

" And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
12 that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them." ( Mark 4:11-12 )

 

[Dave G]

The text of 1 John 1:15 is speaking of present tenses, "love", "is not", not of past experiences. The text of 1 John 1:15 does not say, that "If any man love the world (present tense) the love of the Father was never (past tense unto present tense) in him."

I disagree.
Based on the context of much of God's word, I see it stating that if any man loves the world, the love of the Father IS not in Him and never was in him.

One cannot love the world and love God at the same time ( Matthew 6:24, James 4:4 ).
One cannot love God and then not...and it having been a genuine love.
A fickle "love"?
Absolutely.

Therefore, those who "loved" God never did really love Him, did they?
Genuine love never changes.
Therefore, one who is in a loving relationship never wants a divorce.

The OSAS mindset must mentally add those words ("never"), and mentally take away from what God stated (by the Holy Ghost's inspiration).

I disagree.
It is understood from a fuller reading and belief of the Scriptures that give more detail into who it is that believes and why.

As I see it, you're not taking into account every word of God and how it relates to those who have believed on Christ...
Whether from the heart ( their nature being changed by God and that change being accompanied by the necessary evidences ) or from the mind ( their natures not being changed by God and that change being accompanied by the necessary evidences ).


In other words, there are two types of "believers"...

Those who initially believe and then fall away under trials and tribulations and temptations of the flesh, and those who have believed to the saving of the soul ( Hebrews 10:39 ).
They are the 4th "soil" in the "Parable of the Seeds" that the Lord develops in Matthew 13:3-9, and then reveals the meaning of to His disciples privately in Matthew 13:18-23.

The other 3 "soils" did not bear true spiritual fruit in the eyes of God.
They either stopped believing almost right away, stopped believing after trails and tribulation / persecution came along, or were drawn away by the lusts of the world and never brought true spiritual fruit to perfection...

Which God's children always do.

 

[Dave G]

What happens to non-believers when they die?

According to God's word, they are cast into the Lake of Fire and suffer eternal torment ( Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:44, Revelation 20:10-15 ).

 

[Alofa Atu]

So you must continue to hold to sabbath, keep Dietary, accept Ellen White as inspired in order to keep saved?

Salvation or even Redemption, is to be delivered (saved, redeemed, bought and brought back) from sin unto holiness (perfection).

I believe sister White was as inspired (of the Holy Ghost, for He works upon the individual) as Moses, David, Daniel, John the Baptist, Paul, etc. Since I have tested this person, most thoroughly, I must accept them as a messenger of God, and if I do not, knowing what I know, then I am rejecting not a mere person of mankind, but in reality, I would be rejecting the LORD (JEHOVAH) who sent the messenger with the message (sister White in that sense is inconsequential, as it is the message from God that is important, not so much the messenger). It would be the same in knowing that Moses, David, Daniel, John the Baptist, Paul, etc are inspired of God, having tested them (according to scripture), and then rejecting them (and they being as important in the same manner in relation to the message Giver/Inspirer).

So, let's say I know Moses to be inspired of the Holy Ghost, and yet reject everything inspired by the Holy Ghost, as written by Moses in the OT? Would you call that salvation? or sin?

The plan of redemption includes restoration in diet (and even Jesus started with this, in the wilderness temptations), and you may see that here:

Adam (also Eve), in the beginning, fell and lost Dominion, because of a lapse in obeying God in diet (appetite). God created us to have a diet (appetite) (Genesis), and knows the true 'fuel' for the intricate system He created. To deviate from this, is to ultimately bring death, even if a slow one. It is a violation of the 6th commandment (Thou shalt not kill, which includes oneself). Now, God is merciful, and a lapse in obedience here, may not place me in the 'lost' category immediately (and so with any commandment lapse, while under probation before final testing/proving), but it could, and it could even kill me (for instance if I were to presumptuously eat shellfish (as I used to before Christ Jesus) it could suddenly cause me to go into an anaphylactic shock and I could suddenly die, and I might even be lost because of it. Neither God, nor sin, is to be trifled with.

As for the Sabbath, it should go without saying (and yet it seems not here), that to transgress any commandment of God (the Ten Commandments Exodus 20:1-17) is death (as said so many times in scripture), and that transgression of God's Law is sin, and to remain in sin is not to be saved, redeemed, delivered from anything.

I hope that was helpful.