Questions for Adventist

[Alofa Atu]

To me, the loss of salvation ( "Arminian" )

I am not Arminian, neither Calvinist. To discuss matters of salvation with me, and to utilize those names and their theologies is simply to complicate matters, in regards what a Seventh-day Adventist believes, which is to say (Bible, KJB).

 

[Alofa Atu]

So if you were to stop observing Sabbath, lost, and will get destroyed in end?

If I were to presume to, knowing what I know? Yes. I would be presuming upon God's Grace, in Christ Jesus, and simply forfeit my crown and eternal life (in Christ), for in Him there is no sin, and sin is the transgression of the Law, a violation of His character. I could not say I am in Christ Jesus, and knowingly violate (continually) the 4th commandment, by not keeping it, and I could not then be called the "friend" (John 14:14; Exodus 20:6) of God. I would be at enmity with Him once more. It is a matter based in knowledge as stated before. This is not stating anything about those in ignorance on the subject. For instance, many Christians, go to their grave without having heard the truth, and will receive their resurrection at Jesus' coming, to meet Him in the air. Same goes for the heathen (Romans 1).

 

[Alofa Atu]

Those who initially believe and then fall away under trials and tribulations and temptations of the flesh, and those who have believed to the saving of the soul ( Hebrews 10:39 ).

I agree with what you have stated.

Luk_8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.​

Notice the contrast of vs 13 to that of vs 12 in what it means to "believe" and the connecting word:

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
​

This (vs 13) demonstrates the point for me. A person can for a while believe, be 'saved', and yet come into such a condition (by their doing) as to no longer believe and no longer be 'saved'.

 

[Alofa Atu]

You do know that not of what you are saying here as biblical support, correct?

I know no such thing, which is why the material in the video and response, came directly from the Bible.

 

[Alofa Atu]

According to God's word, they are cast into the Lake of Fire and suffer eternal torment ( Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:44, Revelation 20:10-15 ).

Here are the texts:

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

[context:] Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
​

Isaiah 66:24 does not say anything about 'eternal torment'. It doesn't even say anything about 'torment'. The context of vs 24 is connected to vs 23, which speaks of the New Heaven and New Earth which lasts forever. What is amazing, is that you attempted to connect these verses to Revelation 20:10-15 (and rightly so), but notice where the wicked are all at in Revelation 20:7-9:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.​

They are all upon the earth. There can be no 'eternal torment' here, as God, must create the New Heavens and New Earth where they are all standing, after the fire devours them, unto ashes.

Isaiah 66:24 states, "carcasses", which are dead bodies. They are not alive, and not tormented as a carcase. You can see that, by looking at every use of the word "carcass" in scripture (KJB), or even in Webster's 1828, etc. The righteous (Revelation 20) will see those dead bodies, as returned unto "ashes" (Jeremiah 31:40; Ezekiel 28:18; Malachi 4:3). They were 'tormented' in time, for however long their punishment was to be, as their works were, and brought to ashes. That their "fire" (not torment) is not "quenched" (a verb, meaning: to put out, see Numbers 11:2; Hebrews 11:34) doesn't mean their torment does not come to an end. It speaks to the enduring fire that they cannot put out. It will continue to burn them until they are ashes. Isaiah is using imagery from the destruction of Jerusalem, and Mark and Revelation from those texts. The "unquenchable fire" (2 Kings 22:17; 2 Chronicles 34:25; Isaiah 34:10; Jeremiah 7:20, 17:27; Ezekiel 20:48) is also used to burn sinful Jerusalem to the ground, unto ashes. It sits as the type, to the anti-type coming.

In attempting to say that Isaiah 66:24 shows eternal torment, you have confused 'torment' with 'fire', at the very minimum, and confused 'unquenchable' with 'eternal'.

 

[Alofa Atu]

According to God's word, they are cast into the Lake of Fire and suffer eternal torment ( Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:44, Revelation 20:10-15 ).

The next text is based upon Jesus quoting from Isaiah 66:24, in several places (Mark 9:43-48)

Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
​

Again, please notice, that the texts (Mark 9:43-48) say nothing about 'eternal torment'. The texts do not even say anything 'directly' about "torment", though it is implied. However, the 'torment' implied is limited, not eternal here. Again, it is the "fire" that is not "quenched" (not put out), not the "torment". It is their "worm" which "dieth not". The texts do not say they are eternally in this 'torment', and especially cannot be, when connected to Isaiah 66:23-24, and Revelation 20:9-15, as God creates a New Heaven and New Earth where all the wicked are burned up unto "ashes". Their "torment" lasts as long as is properly determined according to the works (God is Just, not unjust), and then they perish therein. The fire was never quenched, for no one will put it out. They suffered until they died, just as Jesus upon the Cross. Jesus suffered for all sin. It is not an eternal suffering. The wages of sin is death (2nd), not eternal suffering. Suffering is only a portion (temporality, the road) unto that death (finality, destination).

Again, in attempting to say that Mark 9:43-48 shows eternal torment, you have confused 'torment' with 'fire', at the very minimum, and confused 'unquenchable' with 'eternal'. Again, as sinful Jerusalem was the type, it too was burned with unquenchable fire, and no one could put out the fire, and yet it is not still burning. Once the fire burns all that it can, it goes out of itself, as only ashes remain. It was unquenchable, not eternal.

 

[Alofa Atu]

According to God's word, they are cast into the Lake of Fire and suffer eternal torment ( Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:44, Revelation 20:10-15 ).

Finally,

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

We come to a place which seemingly teaches 'eternal torment' ("...shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.. ..." ), that is until the context and words are studied.

So, this text does directly speak of "torment". This is never denied, but always accepted. Torment does indeed go with the final 'reward' of the wicked. Jesus, who suffered for all sin, is the example. He suffered (was tormented) unto death. So too the wicked, even as the unrepentant thief next to Him did also experience.

The "day and night" speaks to the time portion/element of the "torment", in that it will be ongoing (without reprieve) until the job is done (ashes), with some being tormented unto death shorter or longer depending on their deeds done (God is Just). This also speaks to the unquenchable part of the "fire" aspect, in that the wicked cannot put out the fire, nor deliver themselves from it. They shall be consumed in it unto "ashes" (see previous texts cited).

The "for ever and ever" part is connected to the "day and night" and "torment" and "fire" in the "lake", in that it means moment to moment (αιωνας των αιωνων; aiwnas twn aiwnwn). In other words there is not a moment that the wicked shall not suffer in the unquenchable fire (lake thereof), until they are carcasses unto ashes. This cannot last eternally, as God is going to create the New Heavens and New Earth where all of that is taking place.

The confusion comes in how the Bible (KJB) uses the words "for ever and ever". The Bible (KJB) does not always use this to mean 'eternal'. It can speak to just a few moments, 3 days, eternal or even distance (when time is not involved).

Can an "αιων" [aiwn, aeon, in either time, distance or space] come to an end? Yes, even as Paul shows in Hebrews:

Hebrew 9:26 KJB - For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrew 9:26 KJB - επει εδει αυτον πολλακις παθειν απο καταβολης κοσμου νυν δε απαξ επι συντελεια των αιωνων εις αθετησιν αμαρτιας δια της θυσιας αυτου πεφανερωται
​

Notice, "end of the world [aeon]". Notice again:

Titus 2:12 KJB - Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Titus 2:12 KJB - παιδευουσα ημας ινα αρνησαμενοι την ασεβειαν και τας κοσμικας επιθυμιας σωφρονως και δικαιως και ευσεβως ζησωμεν εν τω νυν αιωνι​

Notice, "in this present world [aeon]", which indicates that there is an end to the current "world", or existence, and another "world" [aeon], or existence, to follow after it. Thus and "aeon" can come to an end, and is not necessarily eternal. See also "since the world began", "before this world", "this present evil world", "this world", in Matthew 12:32, Matthew 13:22, Matthew 13:39-40 (2), Matthew 13:49, Matthew 24:3, Matthew 28:20, Mark 4:19, Mark 10:30, Luke 1:70, Luke 16:8, Luke 18:30, Luke 20:34-35 (2), John 9:32, Acts 3:21, Acts 15:18, Romans 12:2, 1 Corinthians 1:20, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 (4), 1 Corinthians 3:18, 1 Corinthians 8:13, 1 Corinthians 10:11, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Galatians 1:4, Ephesians 1:21, Ephesians 3:9, Ephesians 3:21, Ephesians 6:12, 1 Timothy 6:17, 2 Timothy 4:10, Tit 2:12, Hebrews 6:5, Hebrews 9:26; and etc. We now see that "aeon's" can begin, and end, and are not always ongoing without ceasing, and thus context always determines the length, distance, existence, etc.

Notice how the Bible uses the word "for ever":

Jonah 2:6 KJB - I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Jonah 2:6 (2:7) (so-called) LXX - κατέβην εἰς γῆν, ἧς οἱ μοχλοὶ αὐτῆς κάτοχοι αἰώνιοι, καὶ ἀναβήτω φθορὰ ζωῆς μου, κύριε ὁ θεός μου.​

In both distance and time, it is impossible for the word "for ever" in Jonah to be eternal, or without end. Not only does earth have limited space [thus "ends of the earth", dry land is earth, see Genesis 1], but Jonah was only 3 days and 3 nights, timewise, in the belly:

Jonah 1:17 KJB - Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.​

Therefore, in either case, "for ever" is limited, in this instance, in distance and time.

In Deuteronomy 23:3 KJB, “forever” means 10 generations. It can also mean “as long as he lives,” or “to death.”; thus see 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14 KJB.

Therefore, to attempt to use Revelation 20:10 to teach eternal torment, one must ignore the immediate context of where the sinners are all at, must choose to ignore where God creates the New Heavens and New Earth, must choose to ignore the passages which teach that all sinners become "ashes" after being "tormented" and "burned", must have a skewed idea of the Justness and Justice of God, must choose to think that all sin is equally punished with torment (eternally) rather than torment according to their deeds done, and choose to ignore that the wages for sin is ultimately "death", not being alive, must be ignorant of the sin and sinners represented in the Sanctuary (Psalms 77:13, 73:17) service, and one must be either ignorant or choose to ignore what the Bible teaches about the use of the word "aiwn" in OT and NT usage, and choose to define "for ever" by their own definition, and or confuse eternal life (which the wicked never have) and the "for ever" they live, with the wicked's reward.

 

[Dave G]

I am not Arminian, neither Calvinist. To discuss matters of salvation with me, and to utilize those names and their theologies is simply to complicate matters, in regards what a Seventh-day Adventist believes, which is to say (Bible, KJB).

I already know most of what you believe, Alofa.
I've listened to 3 ABN off and on for years, and heard the preaching.

When it comes to salvation, SDA's believe that man co-operates with God in order to gain His favor...
That God "offers" eternal life, and men "accept" it by believing on Christ.
I grew up with this teaching in Baptist churches from 1978, when I heard the preaching of the cross, to roughly 2007, when I started looking for one that didn't teach it.

The Bible teaches the election of grace ( Romans 11:1-6 ), not men electing themselves to receive the gift of eternal life.
In other words, God chooses a people, reveals Himself to them by grace, and they believe His words because He opened their hearts to "listen" ( Psalms 65:4, Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).
They become the recipients of the gift of salvation through no effort of their own.

When it comes to Hell, SDA's teach "annihilationism", not eternal suffering.
But the Bible teaches that the bad news is very bad...which is why the good news of the Gospel is so very good...
To them that have "ears to hear".

Otherwise, we as men think that the preaching of the cross is foolishness ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ), as well as the fact that there is a Hell, and it's a place to very much be afraid of.

 

[Dave G]

Again, please notice, that the texts (Mark 9:43-48) say nothing about 'eternal torment'.

"Where their worm dieth not..."

But, if that is not enough, then the words " And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." ( Revelation 14:11 ) should do it, if you believe the words as written.

Here we see a group of people who have no rest day or night, but that the smoke of their torment rises up for ever and ever.
In Revelation 20, we see two men, the beast and the false prophet, whose punishment is the same.

There is an eternal torment, Alofa.
One that the believer in Christ Jesus is saved from.

That is the wrath of God made real, and worth fleeing from.

We come to a place which seemingly teaches 'eternal torment' ("...shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.. ..." ), that is until the context and words are studied.

I disagree.
God's word blatantly teaches it.

Therefore, to attempt to use Revelation 20:10 to teach eternal torment, one must ignore the immediate context of where the sinners are all at, must choose to ignore where God creates the New Heavens and New Earth, must choose to ignore the passages which teach that all sinners become "ashes" after being "tormented" and "burned", must have a skewed idea of the Justness and Justice of God, must choose to think that all sin is equally punished with torment (eternally) rather than torment according to their deeds done, and choose to ignore that the wages for sin is ultimately "death", not being alive, must be ignorant of the sin and sinners represented in the Sanctuary (Psalms 77:13, 73:17) service, and one must be either ignorant or choose to ignore what the Bible teaches about the use of the word "aiwn" in OT and NT usage, and choose to define "for ever" by their own definition, and or confuse eternal life (which the wicked never have) and the "for ever" they live, with the wicked's reward.

Or, one must choose to simply ignore the words of God as written, as it appears to me that you are doing.
In addition, "eternal life" is defined by Scripture:

" And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." ( John 17:3 ).

To know God and His Son, spiritually.
The wicked are sent to Hell for their sins, and the saved are received into the kingdom of God based on His grace and mercy alone ( Titus 3:5-6 )...
And their sins are not judged because Jesus Christ paid for them.

This is my last post in this thread.
I bid you a good evening sir, and a good day tomorrow as well.

 

[Yeshua1]

Salvation or even Redemption, is to be delivered (saved, redeemed, bought and brought back) from sin unto holiness (perfection).

I believe sister White was as inspired (of the Holy Ghost, for He works upon the individual) as Moses, David, Daniel, John the Baptist, Paul, etc. Since I have tested this person, most thoroughly, I must accept them as a messenger of God, and if I do not, knowing what I know, then I am rejecting not a mere person of mankind, but in reality, I would be rejecting the LORD (JEHOVAH) who sent the messenger with the message (sister White in that sense is inconsequential, as it is the message from God that is important, not so much the messenger). It would be the same in knowing that Moses, David, Daniel, John the Baptist, Paul, etc are inspired of God, having tested them (according to scripture), and then rejecting them (and they being as important in the same manner in relation to the message Giver/Inspirer).

So, let's say I know Moses to be inspired of the Holy Ghost, and yet reject everything inspired by the Holy Ghost, as written by Moses in the OT? Would you call that salvation? or sin?

The plan of redemption includes restoration in diet (and even Jesus started with this, in the wilderness temptations), and you may see that here:

Adam (also Eve), in the beginning, fell and lost Dominion, because of a lapse in obeying God in diet (appetite). God created us to have a diet (appetite) (Genesis), and knows the true 'fuel' for the intricate system He created. To deviate from this, is to ultimately bring death, even if a slow one. It is a violation of the 6th commandment (Thou shalt not kill, which includes oneself). Now, God is merciful, and a lapse in obedience here, may not place me in the 'lost' category immediately (and so with any commandment lapse, while under probation before final testing/proving), but it could, and it could even kill me (for instance if I were to presumptuously eat shellfish (as I used to before Christ Jesus) it could suddenly cause me to go into an anaphylactic shock and I could suddenly die, and I might even be lost because of it. Neither God, nor sin, is to be trifled with.

As for the Sabbath, it should go without saying (and yet it seems not here), that to transgress any commandment of God (the Ten Commandments Exodus 20:1-17) is death (as said so many times in scripture), and that transgression of God's Law is sin, and to remain in sin is not to be saved, redeemed, delivered from anything.

I hope that was helpful.

If I can prove to you from the greek NT text that Jesus and paul contradicted the theology of paul, would you accept them, or just blindly follow EW still?
As we know that the Sda tried for a period of 5 years to prove form the scripture that EW was right on the IJ, and could not find any way to reconcile teachings of Scriptures to her theology on that!

 

[Yeshua1]

I already know most of what you believe, Alofa.
I've listened to 3 ABN off and on for years, and heard the preaching.

When it comes to salvation, SDA's believe that man co-operates with God in order to gain His favor...
That God "offers" eternal life, and men "accept" it by believing on Christ.
I grew up with this teaching in Baptist churches from 1978, when I heard the preaching of the cross, to roughly 2007, when I started looking for one that didn't teach it.

The Bible teaches the election of grace ( Romans 11:1-6 ), not men electing themselves to receive the gift of eternal life.
In other words, God chooses a people, reveals Himself to them by grace, and they believe His words because He opened their hearts to "listen" ( Psalms 65:4, Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).
They become the recipients of the gift of salvation through no effort of their own.

When it comes to Hell, SDA's teach "annihilationism", not eternal suffering.
But the Bible teaches that the bad news is very bad...which is why the good news of the Gospel is so very good...
To them that have "ears to hear".

Otherwise, we as men think that the preaching of the cross is foolishness ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ), as well as the fact that there is a Hell, and it's a place to very much be afraid of.

I was listening to Walter Martin, who stated that he was talking to several of the best theologians of the sda, and he was there in a meeting when one of them opened up his greek nt and read from hebrews 9, and stated that there is no way to get the Investigative Judgement of EW from hebrews, and they all agreed with him, but would not dare to change official policy in regards to that!

 

[Yeshua1]

I already know most of what you believe, Alofa.
I've listened to 3 ABN off and on for years, and heard the preaching.

When it comes to salvation, SDA's believe that man co-operates with God in order to gain His favor...
That God "offers" eternal life, and men "accept" it by believing on Christ.
I grew up with this teaching in Baptist churches from 1978, when I heard the preaching of the cross, to roughly 2007, when I started looking for one that didn't teach it.

The Bible teaches the election of grace ( Romans 11:1-6 ), not men electing themselves to receive the gift of eternal life.
In other words, God chooses a people, reveals Himself to them by grace, and they believe His words because He opened their hearts to "listen" ( Psalms 65:4, Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).
They become the recipients of the gift of salvation through no effort of their own.

When it comes to Hell, SDA's teach "annihilationism", not eternal suffering.
But the Bible teaches that the bad news is very bad...which is why the good news of the Gospel is so very good...
To them that have "ears to hear".

Otherwise, we as men think that the preaching of the cross is foolishness ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ), as well as the fact that there is a Hell, and it's a place to very much be afraid of.

Ellen White had MANY heresies, from denying that Jesus was the lord God Almighty, to he had a sinful nature, to seeing herself just as inspired as Prophets and Apostles of the Bible, and to seeing that we have no hope in Jesus, but have to work to conform ourselves to being able to keep the Law same as Jesus was able to do!

 

[Yeshua1]

"Where their worm dieth not..."

But, if that is not enough, then the words " And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." ( Revelation 14:11 ) should do it, if you believe the words as written.

Here we see a group of people who have no rest day or night, but that the smoke of their torment rises up for ever and ever.
In Revelation 20, we see two men, the beast and the false prophet, whose punishment is the same.

There is an eternal torment, Alofa.
One that the believer in Christ Jesus is saved from.

That is the wrath of God made real, and worth fleeing from.

I disagree.
God's word blatantly teaches it.

Or, one must choose to simply ignore the words of God as written, as it appears to me that you are doing.
In addition, "eternal life" is defined by Scripture:

" And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." ( John 17:3 ).

To know God and His Son, spiritually.
The wicked are sent to Hell for their sins, and the saved are received into the kingdom of God based on His grace and mercy alone ( Titus 3:5-6 )...
And their sins are not judged because Jesus Christ paid for them.

This is my last post in this thread.
I bid you a good evening sir, and a good day tomorrow as well.

Supreme irony, in that ellen White denied Hell was real and eternal, but she knows that truth now!

 

[Yeshua1]

I am not Arminian, neither Calvinist. To discuss matters of salvation with me, and to utilize those names and their theologies is simply to complicate matters, in regards what a Seventh-day Adventist believes, which is to say (Bible, KJB).

lets be blunt, its the Bible but ONLY as interpreted by Ellen White!

 

[Protestant]

I know no such thing, which is why the material in the video and response, came directly from the Bible.

In your previous thread you said, "Whether persons convert is not so much my business here, as it is to share truths long forgotten by Baptists ."

What are the long forgotten truths of which you speak?

 

[Yeshua1]

In your previous thread you said, "Whether persons convert is not so much my business here, as it is to share truths long forgotten by Baptists ."

What are the long forgotten truths of which you speak?

Surely he does not believe that would be the Sda in regards to Sabbath keeping and the IJ?

 

[Protestant]

You are welcome, really.

Well as a Seventh-day Adventist, it is all connected and glorious. It is quite simple, all based upon God's own design, Psalms 77:13.

All good texts. All teach that God has a part and we have a part. "Believeth".

As I have stated before, the probation of those in Christ Jesus, is not for God's knowledge. It is for ours and the unfallen worlds, and even as a witness to the fallen angels.[/QUOTE]

This is a debate tactic called, 'begging the question.' It simply means you have assumed that which is yet to be proven.

I have stated several uncontroversial Scriptures which detail salvation by faith alone, apart from works.

Nowhere in any of these is 'probation' an element.

The warnings in Scripture are directed to those who are pseudo-Christians. They have chosen the broad way of works.

Loving obedience toward God is His sovereign gift to His Chosen, as signified in the Scriptures I cited beforehand.

God has decreed those He personally calls will be justified. Those He justifies will be glorified.

Please read Romans 8:28-30.

We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1). Those justified are absolutely destined to glorification.

They are not under probation.

This is the Word of God.....clear, direct and quite simple to understand.

Those who are pseudo-Christians have reason to fear, however.

 

[Yeshua1]

As I have stated before, the probation of those in Christ Jesus, is not for God's knowledge. It is for ours and the unfallen worlds, and even as a witness to the fallen angels.

This is a debate tactic called, 'begging the question.' It simply means you have assumed that which is yet to be proven.

I have stated several uncontroversial Scriptures which detail salvation by faith alone, apart from works.

Nowhere in any of these is 'probation' an element.

The warnings in Scripture are directed to those who are pseudo-Christians. They have chosen the broad way of works.

Loving obedience toward God is His sovereign gift to His Chosen, as signified in the Scriptures I cited beforehand.

God has decreed those He personally calls will be justified. Those He justifies will be glorified.

Please read Romans 8:28-30.

We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1). Those justified are absolutely destined to glorification.

They are not under probation.

This is the Word of God.....clear, direct and quite simple to understand.

Those who are pseudo-Christians have reason to fear, however.[/QUOTE]
God knows all of those who are His own, as He chose them to be found in Christ Jesus. so is Jesus getting severe amnesia in heaven and forgot? he is the great High priest, does he suddenly forget to do that also?

 

[Alofa Atu]

I was listening to Walter Martin, who stated that he was talking to several of the best theologians of the sda, and he was there in a meeting when one of them opened up his greek nt and read from hebrews 9, and stated that there is no way to get the Investigative Judgement of EW from hebrews, and they all agreed with him, but would not dare to change official policy in regards to that!

Walter Martin was in error several times, including his statement regarding Hebrews 9:12 in the koine Greek, and about Seventh-day Adventist position in general. He, along with Donald Grey Barnhouse were also deceptive, as so also some among the leadership within the Seventh-day Adventists in their closed meetings.
"Walter Martin", let me show a few errors he made about what he stated, on tv, even the John Ankerberg "show", in regards Hebrews 9:12, in the Koine Greek:

[John Ankerberg Show, with Walter Martin and William Johnsson [Review and Herald], time index 00:33:16-00:33:57]

"... [George E. Canon reading the [Koine] Greek New Testament, Hebrews 9:12, in the presence of Walter Martin and others at a selective closed meeting of (so-called) 'scholars'] that Jesus Christ entered once into the holiest of all with his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption for us. ...", and I [Walter Martin] asked the question, and 'Canon' did too [to the present persons meeting], "Did this [event of Hebrews 9:12] take place, as [O.R.L.] Crosier said, as Mrs. [Ellen G.] White said, as the early Adventists taught? Did it [event of Hebrews 9:12] take place in [AD] 1844, or did it [event of Hebrews 9:12] take place at the ascension of Jesus Christ [AD 31]?" [Walter Martin continues apart from the past quotation and questions asked then] The [Koine] Greek text says, at the ascension of Jesus Christ [AD 31]. Once into the holiest of all - the Most Holy Place! ..."​

The text:

Hebrews 9:12 KJB - Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:12 GNT TR - ουδε δι αιματος τραγων και μοσχων δια δε του ιδιου αιματος εισηλθεν εφαπαξ εις τα αγια αιωνιαν λυτρωσιν ευραμενος​

There is not a single extant mss, codici or papyrii, [etc] written in Koine Greek [or in any language] that reads "αγια αγιων" [the Most Holy Place, see Hebrews 9:3 KJB, GNT TR] here in Hebrews 9:12, but plainly reads in all known extant mss, etc in any language, "τα αγια" [the sanctuary, ie first apartment, the holy place].

the Latin [Jerome's Vulgate] reads, "in sancta",
the German Luther Bibel 1545 reads, "das Heilige",
the Wycliffe reads "the holy",
Stephanus 1550 reads, "τα αγια",
Scrivener's 1894 reads, "τα αγια",
and even Westcott's and Hort's 1881 reads, "τα αγια".
the UBS 5th reads, "τὰ ἅγια",
the Novum Testamentum Graece 28th [Eberhard Nestle's / Kurt Aland's, etc] reads, "τὰ ἅγια" without a single footnote in either 'scholars' work indicating any deviation from this reading in any known extant mss, etc.]​

Consider:

Hebrews 8:2 KJB - A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Hebrews 8:2 GNT TR - των αγιων λειτουργος και της σκηνης της αληθινης ην επηξεν ο κυριος και ουκ ανθρωπος

Hebrews 9:1 KJB - Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Hebrews 9:1 GNT TR - ειχεν μεν ουν και η πρωτη δικαιωματα λατρειας το τε αγιον κοσμικον

Hebrews 9:2 KJB - For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
Hebrews 9:2 GNT TR - σκηνη γαρ κατεσκευασθη η πρωτη εν η η τε λυχνια και η τραπεζα και η προθεσις των αρτων ητις λεγεται αγια

Hebrews 9:3 KJB - And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Hebrews 9:3 GNT TR - μετα δε το δευτερον καταπετασμα σκηνη η λεγομενη αγια αγιων

Hebrews 9:7 KJB - But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Hebrews 9:7 GNT TR - εις δε την δευτεραν απαξ του ενιαυτου μονος ο αρχιερευς ου χωρις αιματος ο προσφερει υπερ εαυτου και των του λαου αγνοηματων

Hebrews 9:8 KJB - The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Hebrews 9:8 GNT TR - τουτο δηλουντος του πνευματος του αγιου μηπω πεφανερωσθαι την των αγιων οδον ετι της πρωτης σκηνης εχουσης στασιν

Hebrews 9:24 KJB - For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Hebrews 9:24 GNT TR - ου γαρ εις χειροποιη τα αγια εισηλθεν ο χριστος αντιτυπα των αληθινων αλλ εις αυτον τον ουρανον νυν εμφανισθηναι τω προσωπω του θεου υπερ ημων

Hebrews 9:25 KJB - Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Hebrews 9:25 GNT TR - ουδ ινα πολλακις προσφερη εαυτον ωσπερ ο αρχιερευς εισερχεται εις τα αγια κατ ενιαυτον εν αιματι αλλοτριω

Hebrews 10:19 KJB - Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Hebrews 10:19 GNT TR - εχοντες ουν αδελφοι παρρησιαν εις την εισοδον των αγιων εν τω αιματι ιησου

Hebrews 13:11 KJB - For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
Hebrews 13:11 GNT TR - ων γαρ εισφερεται ζωων το αιμα περι αμαρτιας εις τα αγια δια του αρχιερεως τουτων τα σωματα κατακαιεται εξω της παρεμβολης

Revelation 15:5 KJB - And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
Revelation 15:5 GNT TR - και μετα ταυτα ειδον και ιδου ηνοιγη ο ναος της σκηνης του μαρτυριου εν τω ουρανω​

 

[Alofa Atu]

I was listening to Walter Martin, who stated that he was talking to several of the best theologians of the sda, and he was there in a meeting when one of them opened up his greek nt and read from hebrews 9, and stated that there is no way to get the Investigative Judgement of EW from hebrews, and they all agreed with him, but would not dare to change official policy in regards to that!

Seventh-day Adventists, including O.R.L. Crosier [Day Star Extra, February 7th, 1846, you may read in full here - The Sanctuary, Table of Contents -- Ellen G. White Writings ], and especially sister Ellen G. White, do/did not teach, and have never taught, that Hebrews 9:12 happened in AD 1844. We teach that the event, described in Hebrews 9:12, took place in AD 31, at Christ's Ascension from the Mount of Olives, which parallels Psalms 24:1-10, 133:1-3; Revelation 5:5,6, etc. We do however teach, that the text of Daniel 7:13, and the events therein, took place in AD 1844, based upon the ending of the 2,300 prophecy of Daniel 8:13,14,26, 9:24-27, 11:31-33,40, 12:7-13; Revelation 9:13-15; 10:1-11, etc.

The Great Controversy 1888 & 1911, page 421 -

"... Thither the faith of Christ's disciples followed him as he ascended from their sight. Here their hopes centered, “which hope we have,” said Paul, “as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest forever.” “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.” [Hebrews 6:19, 20; 9:12.]

For eighteen centuries this work of ministration continued in the first apartment of the sanctuary. The blood of Christ, pleaded in behalf of penitent believers, secured their pardon and acceptance with the Father, yet their sins still remained upon the books of record. As in the typical service there was a work of atonement at the close of the year, so before Christ's work for the redemption of men is completed, there is a work of atonement for the removal of sin from the sanctuary. This is the service which began when the 2300 days ended. At that time, as foretold by Daniel the prophet, our High Priest entered the most holy, to perform the last division of his solemn work,—to cleanse the sanctuary. ..." - The Great Controversy, Page 421 -- Ellen G. White Writings​

The Desire of Ages, page 166 -

"... The sacrificial service that had pointed to Christ passed away; but the eyes of men were turned to the true sacrifice for the sins of the world. The earthly priesthood ceased; but we look to Jesus, the minister of the new covenant, and “to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.” “The way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: ... but Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, ... by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.” Hebrews 12:24; 9:8-12. ..." - The Desire of Ages, Page 166 -- Ellen G. White Writings​

Walter Martin [and associates, including John Ankerberg] was/and still are dead wrong, on both counts, and even the (so-called) LXX in Exodus 26:33 disagrees with him [them].

Exodus 26:33 KJB - And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy.
Exodus 26:33 (so-called) LXX - καὶ θήσεις τὸ καταπέτασμα ἐπὶ τοὺς στύλους καὶ εἰσοίσεις ἐκεῖ ἐσώτερον τοῦ καταπετάσματος τὴν κιβωτὸν τοῦ μαρτυρίου· καὶ διοριεῖ τὸ καταπέτασμα ὑμῖν ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ἁγίου καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ ἁγίου τῶν ἁγίων.​

The "holy place" [τοῦ ἁγίου] is separate [by a second "vail" [καταπέτασμα]] from and not the same as the "most holy" [τοῦ ἁγίου τῶν ἁγίων].

The Greek translated "Holy Place" is ta hagia, meaning 'holy places." The reference is to the heavenly sanctuary as a whole. In the Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint (LXX), the singular or plural of hagios, ia, on often refers to the sanctuary as a whole, including both the Holy and Most Holy apartments. For example, see in the Septuagint Exod. 36:1, 3, 4; Lev. 5:15; 10:4; 27:3; Num 3:31, 32; 4:12, 16; 7:9; 18:5. Thus the word in general simply means entering into the Sanctuary through the First, or Outer, Veil from the Courtyard.