Questions for Calvinists

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

It might appear that the male proponents of Whitefield's beliefs may have been called away.

 

[billwald]

Quote:
Originally Posted by billwald
Anyway, I'm a Christian, not a Paulist.
Nor, I imagine, are you a "Moses-ist", a "Davidist", an "Isaiah-ist", a "Matthew-ist", or an "Any-Other-Human-Author-of-a-Book-of-the-Bible-ist". Surely you are not saying that you don't believe those parts of the New Testament written by Paul?

I say that Some Christians think that the Church started with St Paul. I say the Church started before Genesis 1. I say the people who lived with Jesus during his ministry probably had a better idea of his teaching than St Paul.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billwald
Can you construct your Gospel from the Gospels, James, and John?
Sorry, I am probably being more dense than usual , but why should anyone want to "construct" a gospel? And why should they do so based on only part of the bible?

Because there are over 100 Christian denominations. If there was only one authentic gospel then 99% are wrong.

Me, I take the ecumenical creeds as the authentic gospel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billwald
Anyway, Paul probably didn't write the Pastorals and Hebrews.
Well, 1 Timothy begins:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope, 2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
Likewise, 2 Timothy:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, 2 To Timothy, a beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
And Titus 1.1 & 4:
1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.
I would agree that we are not told who wrote Hebrews.

I confess that I am not a fan of Paul's for historical reasons. Acts teaches that the Jerusalem Church governed Christianity. Paul was tolerated as long as he stayed out of Jerusalem. In 70 AD the Jerusalem Church was destroyed and Paul's gentiles assumed control of the Church and changed the gospel.

Further, a chronological reading of the letters attributed to Paul indicate the "real" Paul organized his churches bottom up and women had equal standing. The fake Paul taught top down control and the women kept their mouths shut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by billwald
Galatians is poor writing and I don't know how anyone can develop doctrine from it. Paul's writing is like hearing one half of a telephone conversation. It doesn't make without knowing the other half of the conversation.
I hope I have misunderstood you, and that you are not really saying what it appears to me you are saying: "I (Bill Wald) believe that I have the ability and the right to judge what God has put in His Word, and I further believe that at least one of the 66 books, Galatians, cannot be understood by Christians today." Please forgive me if I have misunderstood you - if that is the case perhaps you could tell me what you did mean. Thanks.

I think Paul's letters have been misinterpreted by people who have an agenda of controlling the Church. And yes, I would not submit a "Galatians" quality paper as a school paper or for publication.

 

[Moriah]

Are you serious!?! You 1st have the nerve to call me unsaved & then deny it but you've got the gall to then try to then castigate P4T for his calling you out on it!

Oh but of course your saved know it all around here.....yea right

you need to apologize for your own brazen arrogance.

You are the one who needs to apologize, but I am pretty sure you will not. I did not call your salvation into question; however, that may be your own conscience speaking to you. By the way, what is so wrong with calling someone’s salvation into question? Does not Paul say we are supposed to judge those in the church?
Does not Paul say he preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds? That is what Paul says, see Acts 26:20.
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

 

[billwald]

>Well, 1 Timothy begins:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope, 2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
Likewise, 2 Timothy:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, 2 To Timothy, a beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
And Titus 1.1 & 4:
1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.
--------------------
In those days it was common and acceptable for a disciple to write in (under) the name of his deceased guru.

 

[Moriah]

billwald,

You said: I say the people who lived with Jesus during his ministry probably had a better idea of his teaching than St Paul.

My reply: That is ludicrous. Jesus spoke with Paul. Paul was an Apostle, the Apostles laid the foundation with the Prophets, and Jesus Christ as chief cornerstone, see Ephesians 2:20.

You said: Can you construct your Gospel from the Gospels, James, and John?
Sorry, I am probably being more dense than usual , but why should anyone want to "construct" a gospel? And why should they do so based on only part of the bible?
Because there are over 100 Christian denominations. If there was only one authentic gospel then 99% are wrong.
Me, I take the ecumenical creeds as the authentic gospel.

My reply: I am not sure at all what you are asking of me. Try to explain it again, then maybe we can proceed.

You said: Anyway, Paul probably didn't write the Pastorals and Hebrews.
Well, 1 Timothy begins:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope, 2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
Likewise, 2 Timothy:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, 2 To Timothy, a beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
And Titus 1.1 & 4:
1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.
I would agree that we are not told who wrote Hebrews.

My reply: Do you recognize that it is still the written Word of God?

You said: I confess that I am not a fan of Paul's for historical reasons. Acts teaches that the Jerusalem Church governed Christianity. Paul was tolerated as long as he stayed out of Jerusalem. In 70 AD the Jerusalem Church was destroyed and Paul's gentiles assumed control of the Church and changed the gospel. Further, a chronological reading of the letters attributed to Paul indicate the "real" Paul organized his churches bottom up and women had equal standing. The fake Paul taught top down control and the women kept their mouths shut.
Galatians is poor writing and I don't know how anyone can develop doctrine from it. Paul's writing is like hearing one half of a telephone conversation. It doesn't make without knowing the other half of the conversation.

My reply: What kind of doctrines do you think people make from Galatians that should not be?

You said: I hope I have misunderstood you, and that you are not really saying what it appears to me you are saying: "I (Bill Wald) believe that I have the ability and the right to judge what God has put in His Word, and I further believe that at least one of the 66 books, Galatians, cannot be understood by Christians today." Please forgive me if I have misunderstood you - if that is the case perhaps you could tell me what you did mean. Thanks.

My reply: I do not exactly know what you are saying. What exactly did I say, or what do you think I said? As for what you said about Galatians, I believe you are wrong. Just because you cannot understand something, that does not mean no one can.

 

[Moriah]

It goes with the territory bro, and it's meant to be demeaning. Non-cals are allowed such things here. They can call your salvation into question, that, and we see entire threads devoted to demean Calvinists which are posted obsessively with the same objective; to demean, one after another.

But that's OK. Let them bear fruit.

What I find interesting though is that moriah and HP, being uncultivated biblically, in said state declare their deficient false teaching and/or misunderstandings in the soterioligal realm boldly. They're proof-texters and we know the problem with this type of interpretation.


- Peace

How does this entire post demean Calvinists? I really want Calvinists to answer those questions. At least, please respond to my replies to the one Calvinist who tried to answer.
You call HP and me uncultivated biblically, is that supposed to be a compliment? Do you think you are more educated and therefore have the truth? I love to tell you what Jesus says about the educated, read these beautiful and powerful words:
Luke 10:21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
Thank You, Father, in the name of Jesus. Amen.
Here are more scriptures for you to consider:
1 Corinthians 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
1 Corinthians 2:12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

 

[billwald]

"Born again" is used only twice in the Bible, John 3 and 1 Peter 1:23:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Nico asked Jesus a clear question and Jesus responded with a koan.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Was Nico ignorant? No, he had never heard the phrase.

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

A new teaching that does not conflict with Torah.

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

In other words, being "born again" is something that the Holy Spirit does to a person, not something that a person does for himself.


9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Another koan and a new teaching.

11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

AKA post regeneration conversion.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

He believes because he is regenerate.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[Moriah]

"Born again" is used only twice in the Bible, John 3 and 1 Peter 1:23:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Nico asked Jesus a clear question and Jesus responded with a koan.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Was Nico ignorant? No, he had never heard the phrase.

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

A new teaching that does not conflict with Torah.

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

In other words, being "born again" is something that the Holy Spirit does to a person, not something that a person does for himself.


9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

Another koan and a new teaching.

11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

AKA post regeneration conversion.

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

He believes because he is regenerate.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

You said: "Born again" is used only twice in the Bible, John 3 and 1 Peter 1:23:
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

My reply: We must be born again. The passage does not say we cannot believe on our own after learning of Jesus. The passage does not say that the Holy Spirit causes us to believe. Do not add to God’s word, nor take away. God tells us to believe, yet Calvinists mock God when they say God says we cannot believe.

You said: A new teaching that does not conflict with Torah.

My reply: Why would you even say that? Are you suspicious over the New Testament?

You said: In other words, being "born again" is something that the Holy Spirit does to a person, not something that a person does for himself.

My reply: Of course, the Holy Spirit causes a person to be born again; however, the person must obey the Master first, in order for God to elect us. When we do what God says, that one loves God and God and Jesus will make their home with the one who obeys Jesus’ teaching. THAT is scripture!

You said: 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.\

My reply: Calvinists turn this into, “whosoever of the SAVED believeth in him should not perish.” The Calvinist teaching does not even make sense. Calvinism attempts to destroy what the Bible plainly says.

You said: 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

My reply: “Whosoever” is just that, “whosoever.”

You said: He believes because he is regenerate.

My reply: NOWHERE do the scriptures say that, NOWHERE. It is man’s assumptions.

 

[Moriah]

complaining about what.... your laziness or your inability to understand orthodox bible based theology. Before we get into another convoluted discussion....please note I used a small case "o" as opposed to a large "O" to define this particular theology.....wouldn't want you making another comprehension misstep.:laugh:

Who is the lazy one? Did you just not copy and paste another man’s words?

 

[Moriah]

HP: But those walking in the Spirit indeed can and do please God. Your argument could be used by any lost person alive to show themselves in Christ. If a saved man cannot please God and his nature is just as a lost man's, in that nothing within him will allow him to do good, you have not said anything to distinguish yourself or any other believer from a lost man.

Paul talked about "Christ in us, our hope of glory". Your argument seems to indicate that Christ in us has no relevance or power over our outward actions.

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Are you certain you want to say that as a saved man you can do no good, even with Christ indwelling in you? That certainly would not be my position nor do I believe it to be the position of Scripture and truth. [/QUOTE]




HP, what you say here is beautiful. Oh how I love the Truth.

 

[Moriah]

It might appear that the male proponents of Whitefield's beliefs may have been called away.

No matter what they say, we know there is nothing wrong with debating Whitfield’s comments, even if he is no longer alive. Whom do you think they are making the rule that we cannot debate the words of a dead man? The dead man has followers here, followers who choose to post his comments. Of course we can debate his words.

 

[billwald]

>>Because there are over 100 Christian denominations. If there was only one authentic gospel then 99% are wrong.
Me, I take the ecumenical creeds as the authentic gospel.

>My reply: I am not sure at all what you are asking of me. Try to explain it again, then maybe we can proceed.

I think the basics of the Gospel can be constructed from the Gospels. If Paul had never been born . . . Jesus would have still been crucified for the sins of the world and still have rose from the grave for our justification. The Gospel would not have changed. My challenge to you is the teach me the Gospel without referring to Paul.


>>You said: Anyway, Paul probably didn't write the Pastorals and Hebrews.
Well, 1 Timothy begins:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope, 2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
Likewise, 2 Timothy:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, 2 To Timothy, a beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
And Titus 1.1 & 4:
1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.
I would agree that we are not told who wrote Hebrews.

>My reply: Do you recognize that it is still the written Word of God?

I believe that the Bible as we have it is sufficient for faith and practice. I do not believe it is inerrant in all matters of history and science.


>>You said: I confess that I am not a fan of Paul's for historical reasons. Acts teaches that the Jerusalem Church governed Christianity. Paul was tolerated as long as he stayed out of Jerusalem. In 70 AD the Jerusalem Church was destroyed and Paul's gentiles assumed control of the Church and changed the gospel. Further, a chronological reading of the letters attributed to Paul indicate the "real" Paul organized his churches bottom up and women had equal standing. The fake Paul taught top down control and the women kept their mouths shut.
Galatians is poor writing and I don't know how anyone can develop doctrine from it. Paul's writing is like hearing one half of a telephone conversation. It doesn't make without knowing the other half of the conversation.

>My reply: What kind of doctrines do you think people make from Galatians that should not be?

Off hand, none. I don't think there are any (life and death, make or break) doctrines that are unique to Galatians.


>>You said: I hope I have misunderstood you, and that you are not really saying what it appears to me you are saying: "I (Bill Wald) believe that I have the ability and the right to judge what God has put in His Word, and I further believe that at least one of the 66 books, Galatians, cannot be understood by Christians today." Please forgive me if I have misunderstood you - if that is the case perhaps you could tell me what you did mean. Thanks.

>My reply: I do not exactly know what you are saying. What exactly did I say, or what do you think I said? As for what you said about Galatians, I believe you are wrong. Just because you cannot understand something, that does not mean no one can.

Let us agree to disagree in peace.

Math has always been my weak point but I have been reading several books about the recent history of math. The latest by Michio Kaku. Every book starts our and ends well written but at the start it seems to make sense. Later chapters build on earlier material but all of a sudden I realize I don't understand a word I am reading. So I google the words I have been reading and I don't understand any of it.

In other words, like reading theology. I read the Bible front to back and it all makes sense as written. I've probably read 50,000 or 100,000 pages of bible commentary and systematic theologies. I have met with Plymouth Brethern and know the history of John Nelson Darby who invented Dispensational theology in the middle 1800's. It is NOT exactly the Gospel. The clearest and most logical systematic theologian I have read is John Calvin and the clearest and most logical NT commentary I have read is R. C. H. Lensky - every word of every volume.

 

[Iconoclast]

Moriah......sorry you were unable to understand my reply to you.
Your post contains many errors....but because of the length of your post...to expand it will not be helpful.
let me see if I can pick out some of the errors for you.
you said;

No, it never happens, not once in the Bible. The Bible says we believe, THEN we receive the Holy Spirit.

Dead men cannot believe anything...they need the Spirit to be able to believe.
Unbelievers do not have the Spirit....that is why they are....un-believers
Scripture says the natural man....Cannot.... receive the word...

13which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing,

14and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know [them], because spiritually they are discerned

you claim he can and does...you say the natural man can.....scripture says he cannot...he does not have the power or ability to understand. so this leads to your next wrong conclusion;

You said: Yes,,,,because of the fall men are unable to come to God ...unless God draws them to faith..Jn 6:37-44.

My reply: You need to go just one more scripture down, to John 6:45, here we are told that God draws them because they recognize what Jesus says as the word of God. John 6:45 Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
So now that you know the truth, will you continue to repeat the falseness

I just showed you clear scripture that says dead ,natural men cannot understand the word of God.....it does not contradict this passage in Jn 6;45
perhaps you are not aware of where the passage comes from;

13And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

14In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

the context is that the covenant children who are already drawn by the Father to Jesus as he builds His church. Only the elect are drawn, the elect are all the Father gives to Jesus. jn 6:37-44...as long as this is in the bible your objections are mis-guided and false.

So now that you know the truth, will you continue to repeat the falseness[/U]

looks like this applies to you.you are not really asking questions to learn...but to resist. you have not made your case.


[QUOTEYou said: 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

My reply: The PLAN was predestined, for us to have access to salvation through faith.
][/QUOTE]
No...this is completely unbiblical.....God chose the elect in Christ before the world was...he did not choose a plan..he chose people,
lets see which view is biblically taught here;
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
this is speaking of people..not a plan
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
it does not say a plan was foreknown...it says for WHOM...that again is people 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Again..WHOM and THEM...not a plan...this error is common as non cals do not understand the word foreknow correctly.your next error ;

You said: Yes..the scripture teaches this.
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. My reply: We HAVE to believe first, we have to believe. Nowhere does this teach that we cannot believe after learning of Jesus, NOWHERE. The scriptures just do not say that. Calvinism gives assumptions.

Calvin did not teach this to Nicodemas...Jesus did....

Except a man be Born from above...HE CANNOT enter......you say he can..before being born from above

you say it is no where taught.....it is all over the Bible...salvation is all of God. If any man have not the Spirit of God he is none of His.

next error;

You said: Sure he did:
4Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

My reply: NOWHERE does this passage so we cannot believe in God after learning of Jesus.

You cannot learn of Jesus unless drawn of the Father by the Spirit..this verse shows how it happens. Individuals are chosen of the God from the beginning...not a plan....
Moriah...I can show verses..but if you do not understand what you are reading...you do not have the verses:thumbs:

now you repeat your error;

The plan is predestined for those who would believe in Jesus. God elects us when we believe and obey.God knows the heart, and God knows what we all would believe, even before we were born.

No...here is why

48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

God's election and ordination comes first...who believed?
AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED
it does not say as you keep saying;
AS MANY AS BELIEVED WERE ORDAINED TO LIFE
You have it backwards denying the truth of God.
next error;

These scriptures are about God’s chosen, the Jews, turning away from God. These Jews were God’s chosen, yet they were just like everyone else.

No God says he looked down from heaven to see if there were Any who seek God 2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Moriah...can you see how in your desire to dis-prove the truth of grace..you are in constant error?

Moriah...you do understand that Jesus is God...don't you???you said this;

The people were already God’s, now they would become Jesus’ people

 

[preacher4truth]

Icon,

You're correct in the manner in which you address Moriah, as yes, his error begets error, and so on. We see when a theology is corrupt, the children it begets are born with the same disease, but each child thereafter becomes moreso. Paul warns of such types, yet these cannot see the error of their way, 2 Timothy 2:13.

I stated, a little before, in what respect they shall grow worse and worse; for he foretells not only that they will make obstinate resistance, but that they will succeed in injuring and corrupting others. One worthless person will always be more effectual in destroying, than ten faithful teachers in building, though they labor with all their might. Nor are there ever wanting the tares which Satan sows for injuring the pure corn; and even when we think that false prophets are driven away, others continually spring up in other directions. - John Calvin

To Moriah, you falsely accuse EWF. No one has stated, nor have any implied that one cannot debate the words of George Whitefield. Rather, EWF has made invitation to both read and debate his words, a task that at least two of you refuse to undertake, but instead have turned to bearing false witness and name slandering, and calling the salvation of those who preach the truth into question.

 

[savedbymercy]

moriah

Calvinists say we are born again first and then enabled to believe; however, the scriptures say we believe first, and then given the Holy Spirit, then we are born again.

Can you provide us with such a scripture or passage, after over Thirty Years of reading the and studying the bibe, I never saw it !

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Whitfield: "I can say that I cannot pray but I sin — I cannot preach to you or any others but I sin — I can do nothing without sin; and, as one expresseth it, my repentance wants to be repented of, and my tears to be washed in the precious blood of my dear Redeemer. Our best duties are as so many splendid sins."

Moriah: Calvinists say no one can do anything right towards God until God saves them first!

HP: You know why it is sometimes hard to debate a Calvinist? It is because they can say anything they want at anytime they want no matter how contradictory it is in reality. It is a system that is properly called a maelstrom of confusion. Take the remarks by Whitefield posted by EW&F. Whitefield says that "nothing", did everyone hear that? Whitfield says "nothing" he can do is without sin, including but not limited to preaching, repenting, shedding tears, and whatever else one professing to be a believer could do. ALL, I repeat, ALL IS SIN. If such remarks do not make God out to be a tasksmaster, what else could?? Not only that, if preaching, praying and shedding tears, is ALL sin, and God tells us to do it, why is that not God telling, or causing, man to sin?

Someone say Amen! (This is good preaching if I have to Amen it myself:thumbs


Just as we see in this remark by Whitfield, even the repentance that GOD HIMSELF, something said by Calvinist's to be a work of GOD HIMSELF 'apart from' the will of man, is said by the Calvinist to be lacking! What utter unbiblical, unreasonable nonsense such a system of theology imbibes. They are not elevating grace with such utter nonsense. They are making a mockery of truth in such comments regardless of whatever truth may be found in their next flip flop.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Who will be the first professed Calvinist to come to the defense of the words of their father, Whitfield?

Don't tell me to go and read more of what he wrote in order to understand the man. I know full well that Calvinist's can say anything they want to any time they want to, so what would it really matter? Defend this statement of Whitfield. Show where this statement is in accordance to truth, Scripture, or in accordance to reason. Don't just go searching for another comment by Whitfield that might say something different than what he did here. Anyone can say two conflicting statements in two conflicting places. Show us the truth of this comment by Whitfield as it stands and as it was posted.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

How about some highly 'biblically cultivated' input from the likes of preacher4 truth? :thumbs:


Just so the reader does not accuse me of 'goading', (something I am certain no preacher would be guilty of) be reminded of the comments posted by preacher4truth.



P4T: What I find interesting though is that moriah and HP, being uncultivated biblically,....

HP: :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Amy.G]

Taken in context, which you are not doing HP, Whitefield is saying that even our righteousness is as filthy rags. Ever heard that before? (Is 64:6)
He is saying that any good that we do is done in the spirit. In our flesh is no good thing. Ever heard that before? (Ro 7:18)

He is also saying that we still have a nature within us to sin and that it tries to rear it's ugly head even when we do good through the spirit. Paul speaks of this very thing in Romans.

Romans 7:22-24 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy sorry, but you offer nothing as proof. Your personal explanations cannot heal the absurdity of his remarks. He said, ALL that a man does is sin. Deal with his remarks as they are written, not simply try and soften the absurdity of such remarks. Maybe he took that remark back and apologized at some point in time. Who knows? Now that might be considered evidence if you can find it that he did not mean what he said.:thumbs:

The Scriptures you offer have nothing to do with his remark, nor do they say that everything that one does, even as a believer is sin. Focus Amy. Focus.