Questions for Calvinists

[Amy.G]

Amy sorry, but you offer nothing as proof. Your personal explanations cannot heal the absurdity of his remarks.

Good grief Hp, I posted scripture to back up my "personal" explanations.

Whitefield said: "for we cannot pt up a prayer but it is far from that perfection which the moral law requireth."

He appears to be saying IMO that we still have a nature within us to sin and that the only way to please God is through the spirit and not the flesh.

This is how I read it and according to Paul's explanation of the flesh warring against the spirit, I think Whitefield is correct. Stop picking out one sentence and read the whole thing IN CONTEXT.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: "for we cannot pt up a prayer but it is far from that perfection which the moral law requireth."

Whitfield: "I can say that I cannot pray but I sin — I cannot preach to you or any others but I sin — I can do nothing without sin; and, as one expresseth it, my repentance wants to be repented of, and my tears to be washed in the precious blood of my dear Redeemer. Our best duties are as so many splendid sins."


Amy, you are doing what Calvinists do best. Are you certain you are not one of them? You allow Whitfield to say something flat out contradictory to Scripture and the tells us it is explained by yet another remark or his over-all context, as you see it. Context to you is nothing more than a convenient way to provide cover for the nonsense you just stated. That is nothing but reasoning in a circle, not showing evidence of the truth of what he said. You are flip flopping just as every Calvinist does when called into question for something they say. You simply point to something else that is contradictory to what you said as proof that the contradictory notion is indeed justified. Hogwash.

You cannot make one statement and proclaim it is truth to support anything, if the statement itself IS NOT TRUTH IN ANY CONTEXT WHATSOEVER. Whitfield's remark is not truth in any context whatsoever, not in his, not in Scripture, not in reason or logic.

 

[Moriah]

HP: You know why it is sometimes hard to debate a Calvinist? It is because they can say anything they want at anytime they want no matter how contradictory it is in reality. It is a system that is properly called a maelstrom of confusion. Take the remarks by Whitefield posted by EW&F. Whitefield says that "nothing", did everyone hear that? Whitfield says "nothing" he can do is without sin, including but not limited to preaching, repenting, shedding tears, and whatever else one professing to be a believer could do. ALL, I repeat, ALL IS SIN. If such remarks do not make God out to be a tasksmaster, what else could?? Not only that, if preaching, praying and shedding tears, is ALL sin, and God tells us to do it, why is that not God telling, or causing, man to sin?

Someone say Amen! (This is good preaching if I have to Amen it myself:thumbs


Just as we see in this remark by Whitfield, even the repentance that GOD HIMSELF, something said by Calvinist's to be a work of GOD HIMSELF 'apart from' the will of man, is said by the Calvinist to be lacking! What utter unbiblical, unreasonable nonsense such a system of theology imbibes. They are not elevating grace with such utter nonsense. They are making a mockery of truth in such comments regardless of whatever truth may be found in their next flip flop.

I say Amen!

 

[preacher4truth]

Taken in context, which you are not doing HP, Whitefield is saying that even our righteousness is as filthy rags. Ever heard that before? (Is 64:6)
He is saying that any good that we do is done in the spirit. In our flesh is no good thing. Ever heard that before? (Ro 7:18)

He is also saying that we still have a nature within us to sin and that it tries to rear it's ugly head even when we do good through the spirit. Paul speaks of this very thing in Romans.

Romans 7:22-24 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

You've answered correctly. Don't allow the false teaching of another get to you, as he won't hear a thing you tell him from Gods Word.

Good job Amy.

:thumbsup:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

And to think I was waiting for some 'biblically cultivated' truth from preacher4truth.

 

[billwald]

Calvin taught that truth is where you find it. When non-Christians do good works it is because the Holy Spirit is leading them. Would Satan cause people to do good works?

"Works" are intrinsically "good" or "evil" (or morally neutral). If a saint can do evil, then a sinner can do good.

 

[Amy.G]

And to think I was waiting for some 'biblically cultivated' truth from preacher4truth.

I gave you truth. You just didn't like it.

What is Paul talking about when he says "So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."?

What does he mean when he says "in me dwells no good thing"?

 

[Christos doulos]

Good grief Hp, I posted scripture to back up my "personal" explanations.

Whitefield said: "for we cannot pt up a prayer but it is far from that perfection which the moral law requireth."

He appears to be saying IMO that we still have a nature within us to sin and that the only way to please God is through the spirit and not the flesh.

This is how I read it and according to Paul's explanation of the flesh warring against the spirit, I think Whitefield is correct. Stop picking out one sentence and read the whole thing IN CONTEXT.

:thumbs: Simul justus et peccator

 

[Moriah]

I gave you truth. You just didn't like it.

What is Paul talking about when he says "So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."?

What does he mean when he says "in me dwells no good thing"?

Paul is explaining how he WANTED to do good, but could not stop sinning, not without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is another scripture that Calvinists go against, for Calvinists say NNE can even WANT to do good, unless they are already saved.

 

[Moriah]

Calvin taught that truth is where you find it. When non-Christians do good works it is because the Holy Spirit is leading them. Would Satan cause people to do good works?

"Works" are intrinsically "good" or "evil" (or morally neutral). If a saint can do evil, then a sinner can do good.

Can you show me the place you got that quote from Calvin? If Calvin said that, then why did he teach the falseness that we cannot hear the message and be saved? Even though the scriptures say FAITH COMES FROM HEARING, see Romans 10:17.

 

[Moriah]

Iconoclast

You said: Moriah......sorry you were unable to understand my reply to you.
Your post contains many errors....but because of the length of your post...to expand it will not be helpful.
let me see if I can pick out some of the errors for you.

My reply: I did not say I was unable to understand your reply to me. Some things I thought you could explain better, though.

You said: Dead men cannot believe anything...they need the Spirit to be able to believe.
Unbelievers do not have the Spirit....that is why they are....un-believers
Scripture says the natural man....Cannot.... receive the word...

My reply: Where in the scriptures does it say, “Dead men cannot believe anything”? NOWHERE in the scriptures does it say we cannot believe in Jesus after learning of him. In fact, that is how we get faith.
Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:14. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.
We do not even have to understand the word of God when we first hear of it. Lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will direct your paths (see Proverbs 3:5-6). We do not even have to have understanding! We believe, then when we receive the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit teaches us.

You said: I just showed you clear scripture that says dead ,natural men cannot understand the word of God.....

My reply: No, you did not show me anything except that you added to God’s word. Nowhere does the scriptures say we cannot believe in Jesus after learning of him. The scriptures tell us that that is how we have faith, after hearing. You add and take away from God’s word.

You said: it does not contradict this passage in Jn 6;45
perhaps you are not aware of where the passage comes from;the context is that the covenant children who are already drawn by the Father to Jesus as he builds His church. Only the elect are drawn, the elect are all the Father gives to Jesus. jn 6:37-44...as long as this is in the bible your objections are mis-guided and false.

My reply: The Jews who already believed in God before Jesus’ ministry on earth were those allowed to come to Jesus. The Word of God says they are drawn because they recognize what Jesus says as God’s word. JUST READ DOWN ONE MORE SCRIPTURE AND YOU WILL SEE THIS. The rest of the Jews who did not believe in God BEFORE Jesus’ ministry, they were hardened and cut off. God offered salvation first only to the believing Jews. After Jesus was lifted up, then all other faiths could believe in Jesus and he would save them.

You said: Looks like this applies to you.you are not really asking questions to learn...but to resist. you have not made your case.

My reply: I am trying to show those from the reformed camp that they cannot give biblical answers to the questions.

You said: No...this is completely unbiblical.....God chose the elect in Christ before the world was...he did not choose a plan..he chose people,

My reply: What did God chose the people to do? God chose the people to have access to salvation through faith.

You sad: lets see which view is biblically taught here;
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

My reply: This does not say at all that God gives us the Holy Spirit to cause us to love Him! Stay on topic. Jesus says in John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
What you teach is not the word of God.

You said: this is speaking of people..not a plan
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

My reply: God foreknew the Jews, even though it may of seemed like all the Jews were hardened and cut off, they were not hardened and cut off forever. In addition, God knows all our hearts, even before we are born. Why does God search are hearts if all hearts are only evil anyway? Calvinists say that none of us has the capability to believe and that we are totally depraved, if that is so, then why does the bible say God searches? Here are many passages that tell us God searches. What is God searching for if all are totally depraved?

1 Chronicles 28:9 "And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.

2 Chronicles 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him.

Psalm 7:9 O righteous God, who searches minds and hearts, bring to an end the violence of the wicked and make the righteous secure.

Proverbs 20:27 The lamp of the LORD searches the spirit of a man; it searches out his inmost being.

John 4:23 yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
Not only that, why does God have to harden anyone anyway, if they cannot believe?
You people of the reformed group need to start answering my replies to your replies.

You said: it does not say a plan was foreknown...it says for WHOM...that again is people 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

My reply: The plan was predestined, for those who would believe in His Son.

You said: Except a man be Born from above...HE CANNOT enter......you say he can..before being born from above
My reply: He becomes born again after he believes the message, then when God accepts that person; God gives them His Holy Spirit. We receive the Holy Spirit when God accepts us (Acts 15:8).

You said: you say it is no where taught.....it is all over the Bible...salvation is all of God. If any man have not the Spirit of God he is none of His.

My reply: What Calvinists teach is not in the Bible, NOWHERE.

You said: You cannot learn of Jesus unless drawn of the Father by the Spirit..this verse shows how it happens. Individuals are chosen of the God from the beginning...not a plan....
Moriah...I can show verses..but if you do not understand what you are reading...you do not have the verses.

My reply: Show one thing I have explained wrong. That is one of your problems, you do not even read and consider what I tell you. I only tell you what is in the scriptures.

You said: No God says he looked down from heaven to see if there were Any who seek God 2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

My reply: Paul is quoting King David. What is King David saying where Paul quotes? At that time, it is a sad state of affairs inside Israel. When the day arrived, no one searched for God. Later, they repented, and searched for God. During slavery in Egypt, the Jewish people asked God, if he had forgotten them. How could they do so, if THEY were not wondering where He had disappeared? In the New Testament, when Jesus arrived, people shouted: “Son of David, have mercy on me”. They were looking for the Messiah. In the New Testament a blind man was searching for the Son of God, the prophet’s had said would come.

You said: Moriah...you do understand that Jesus is God...don't you???you said this;

My reply: Jesus is God in the flesh. The people who believed in God BEFORE JESUS CAME TO EARTH, THEY NOW HAD TO GO THROUGH JESUS. Why are you accusing me of not believing Jesus is God? John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
Did you read that how JESUS TELLS US THEY WERE PEOPLE GIVEN TO HIM BY THE FATHER? Looks like you misunderstand a lot of things, and by doing so you live in great error.

 

[Christos doulos]

Paul is explaining how he WANTED to do good, but could not stop sinning, not without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is another scripture that Calvinists go against, for Calvinists say NNE can even WANT to do good, unless they are already saved.

I am a bit confused.

"No one can even want to do good"

Who said that? Please bear in mind that there are varying degrees of Calvinism.

All believers want to do good including unbelievers. The problem is that we can't do good, not because we want not to do good but because we are not good. We are sinful to the core of our being. Sin taints all our "good" deeds therefore it is impossible to please God without the imputation of Christ righteousness.

Having the righteousness of Christ is the ONLY way God can look at our "good" deeds and see them as truly good and truly righteous.

So in a nutshell. Can man do good without God? That is open for debate, but if I had to oversimplify; putting aside the moral and theological arguments, then Yes. I believe he can on what your definition of "good" might be. Can man do good without God, and still please God? No

 

[preacher4truth]

Paul is explaining how he WANTED to do good, but could not stop sinning, not without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is another scripture that Calvinists go against, for Calvinists say NNE can even WANT to do good, unless they are already saved.

Another strawman and a false accusation.

Calvinists don't go against scripture, but rather practice the opposite.

Can man do some "good" activities. Of course. When we say man has no freewill, it doesn't involve daily activities. His will is bound spiritually in sin. Is man inherently a good being, person, spiritually? Not at all. He is bound in sin spiritually and needs God to bring him back to spiritual life. God does all the saving, not just parts.

 

[savedbymercy]

cd

So in a nutshell. Can man do good without God?

Not when it comes to recommending themselves to God for Salvation ! Those deeds, no matter how righteous they may be are evil, and undermine the work of Christ !

Now are you asking can men be moral and good naturally, and do kind things , yes !

But when we see scriptures like ps 14:3

They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Ps 53:1,3

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:12

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one

Man is not capable of doing spiritual good, simply because he is by nature dead in trespasses and sins !

 

[Moriah]

I am a bit confused.



Who said that? Please bear in mind that there are varying degrees of Calvinism.

All believers want to do good including unbelievers. The problem is that we can't do good, not because we want not to do good but because we are not good. We are sinful to the core of our being. Sin taints all our "good" deeds therefore it is impossible to please God without the imputation of Christ righteousness.

Having the righteousness of Christ is the ONLY way God can look at our "good" deeds and see them as truly good and truly righteous.

So in a nutshell. Can man do good without God? That is open for debate, but if I had to oversimplify; putting aside the moral and theological arguments, then Yes. I believe he can on what your definition of "good" might be. Can man do good without God, and still please God? No

I said: Paul is explaining how he WANTED to do good, but could not stop sinning, not without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is another scripture that Calvinists go against, for Calvinists say NNE can even WANT to do good, unless they are already saved.

You said: I am a bit confused.

My reply: Paul explains how he wanted to do good but could not, no without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Read Romans 7:1-25

I said: "No one can even want to do good"

You said: Who said that? Please bear in mind that there are varying degrees of Calvinism.

My reply: All Calvinists and Lutherans teach that no one can WANT to do good towards God, not without the indwelling of the Spirit.

 

[Moriah]

Another strawman and a false accusation.

Calvinists don't go against scripture, but rather practice the opposite.

Can man do some "good" activities. Of course. When we say man has no freewill, it doesn't involve daily activities. His will is bound spiritually in sin. Is man inherently a good being, person, spiritually? Not at all. He is bound in sin spiritually and needs God to bring him back to spiritual life. God does all the saving, not just parts.

I said: Paul is explaining how he WANTED to do good, but could not stop sinning, not without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is another scripture that Calvinists go against, for Calvinists say NNE can even WANT to do good, unless they are already saved.

You said: Another strawman and a false accusation.

My reply: You are the only one here with a straw man. Calvinists and Lutherans believe in total depravity, that no one can believe in God without God first giving the Holy Spirit. However, scripture tells us we have to believe first, then we are given the Holy Spirit.

You said: Calvinists don't go against scripture, but rather practice the opposite.

My reply: I have shown you with the scriptures that Calvinists go against the word of God.

You said: Can man do some "good" activities. Of course. When we say man has no freewill, it doesn't involve daily activities.

My reply: Now you are coming around to admitting that Calvinists do not believe we can even believe there is a God without God giving us His Spirit first.

You said: His will is bound spiritually in sin. Is man inherently a good being, person, spiritually? Not at all. He is bound in sin spiritually and needs God to bring him back to spiritual life. God does all the saving, not just parts.

My reply: Are you admitting now that Calvinists claim we cannot even believe in God without God first giving us His Spirit first?

 

[Moriah]

cd

Not when it comes to recommending themselves to God for Salvation ! Those deeds, no matter how righteous they may be are evil, and undermine the work of Christ !

Now are you asking can men be moral and good naturally, and do kind things , yes !

But when we see scriptures like ps 14:3

They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Ps 53:1,3

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:12

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one

Man is not capable of doing spiritual good, simply because he is by nature dead in trespasses and sins !

Paul is quoting Psalm14:1-3; 53:1-3; and Ecclesiastes 7:20. Ecclesiastes SAYS there is not a RIGHTEOUS man who does what is right and NEVER SINS. Ecclesiastes tells us that there ARE RIGHTEOUS men but none who NEVER sin. Paul is explaining that the Jews were sinners just like the Gentiles. Nowhere in these passages or scriptures anywhere does it say none can believe on their own. In this same Ecclesiastes 7, Solomon tells us about wise men, righteous men, and about a man who pleases God. Solomon also tells us that he found one upright man among a thousand. The Bible tells us that there are people who want to do right, but we cannot stop sinning without Jesus saving us and giving us the Holy Spirit.

Calvinists falsely use the scripture from Isaiah to support their doctrine. Calvinists use verse 6, “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags." However, Calvinists do not mention the scripture just two verses up, verse 4, how Isaiah tells us about God who acts on behalf of those who wait for him. Then, verse 5 tells us how God will come to the help of those who gladly do right, who remember His ways. Isaiah says, “But when we continued to sin against them…” This tells us that people WANT to do right, but cannot stop sinning against God’s ways. That is why we need a Savior. It does NOT mean what Calvinists say, that we CANNOT believe in God on our own.

Isaiah 64:5
5 You come to the help of those who gladly do right,

who remember your ways.

But when we continued to sin against them,

you were angry.

How then can we be saved?

 

[Christos doulos]

I said: Paul is explaining how he WANTED to do good, but could not stop sinning, not without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit......

Paul explains how he wanted to do good but could not, no without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Read Romans 7:1-25

"No one can even want to do good"

All Calvinists and Lutherans teach that no one can WANT to do good towards God, not without the indwelling of the Spirit.

My friend. You are forgetting the $64,000 question. WHY would an unbeliever want to do good towards God? Please give me a reason or reasons.

 

[Moriah]

My friend. You are forgetting the $64,000 question. WHY would an unbeliever want to do good towards God? Please give me a reason or reasons.

You are forgetting that Paul, when he was first under the law, trying to obey God, that he persecuted Christians.

What do you think about Jews who reject Jesus, but claim they are obeying God by following the Torah?
What do you think about Muslims, who claim they believe in God and are doing right by Allah by following the Qur’an?

 

[Christos doulos]

You are forgetting that Paul, when he was first under the law, trying to obey God, that he persecuted Christians.

What do you think about Jews who reject Jesus, but claim they are obeying God by following the Torah?.......

Are you saying, the reason is out of obedience for God?

If the God of the bible is the one and true God, then how are they being obedient to God by rejecting Jesus?

Are you sure that they are wanting to obey for God or are they wanting to obey for themselves and the god of their making? Is rejecting Jesus not telling God, I am not going to do it your way but my way?