Questions for the anti-Lordship Salvation people..

[jcjordan]

So many of these threads have been spent in trying to either defend or refute Johnny Mac. To me, these non LS people are defining themselves more by how they disagree with John MacArther then explaining exactly what they believe. Therefore I would like to see the following questions answered by the non-LS people:

Will one whom Christ has saved, have sorrow for their sin?
Will Christ permit one who has been saved to live a lifestyle of obstinate disobedience to God's Word?
Will those whom Christ has saved also be sanctified?
Will the Holy Spirit always grant repentance to those who will be saved?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Excellent questions.

 

[EdSutton]

So many of these threads have been spent in trying to either defend or refute Johnny Mac. To me, these non LS people are defining themselves more by how they disagree with John MacArther then explaining exactly what they believe. Therefore I would like to see the following questions answered by the non-LS people:

Will one whom Christ has saved, have sorrow for their sin?
Will Christ permit one who has been saved to live a lifestyle of obstinate disobedience to God's Word?
Will those whom Christ has saved also be sanctified?
Will the Holy Spirit always grant repentance to those who will be saved?

I'll take a short crack at these four questions, considering I, for one, seldom even particularly mention, and even less frequently cite anything by Dr. John MacArthur on these threads, FTR. I have absolutely no control over what anyone else may or may not do, in this regard. I would not recognize Dr. MacArthur, were I to meet him on the street, since faces do not show up through a radio very well, and I don't get cable or have a dish, and he is not on the TV locally (which I seldom watch, anyway), unlike Shawn Boostra, Dr. Charles Stanley or Dr. Ted Sisk. I might possibly recognize his voice, upon hearing it, were he to speak, but I would not even guarantee that.

1.) "Will one whom Christ has saved, have sorrow for their sin?"

Some, no doubt may, cases in point David (Ps. 38:18) and apparently Peter, who wept bitterly, (Lk. 22:62) but Scripture never says this will always, or even likely, be the case, in any verses of which I am aware. Isaiah saw his inadequacy, (Isa. 6:5), but that is not the same thing.

"Godly sorrow produces a change of mind unto an irrevocable salvation." (II Cor. 7:10a) (However!) "but worldly sorrow produces death." (II Cor. 7:10b) Sorrow over the sins, for a believer, can actually 'consume' one, meaning there is such a thing as too much sorrow, I would say. (II Cor. 2:7)

2.) "Will Christ permit one who has been saved to live a lifestyle of obstinate disobedience to God's Word?"

Scripture does not answer this either, directly, as to whether or not this can happen. However, Paul mentions some that were ill, and some that apparently had their lives shortened, because of sin. (I Cor. 11:30) We may be 'judged' in this life (I Cor. 11:31); we certainly will be judged at the Bema (Rom. 14:10; II Cor. 5:10) However, your question puzzles me, a bit. It implies either 'knowledge' that I suggest one cannot rightly have, about another, unless one has the ability to know one's motives, or gets additional 'revelation', by God. Also how do you know someone is living this alleged lifestyle of obstinate disobedience? Where are these standards given? Personally, I have seen, on these pages, what I consider to be an awfully lot of 'judging' about matters of which Scripture is silent. Not to mention, multiple threads and posts where someone has effectively claimed the ability to known whether or not someone is saved, based on their supposed "fruits", and how these 'fruits' measure up to some undefined standard. "I don't judge anyone, but I certainly can be a 'fruit-inspector', for God said we could be!" (Nevermind that Scripture said no such thing!) Interestingly, I was not aware, from Scripture, that USDA employees had any sort of 'special salvation status'

3.) " Will those whom Christ has saved also be sanctified?"

Yes! Absolutely! :thumbs:

In fact, in the Biblical sense, we already have been sanctified (I Cor. 1:2; 6:11; Heb. 10:10,14; Jude 1); we are being sanctified (Jn. 17:17; I Thes. 5:23; I Pet. 3:15); and we will be sanctified (Eph. 5:27). Sanctification is past, present and future.

4.) " Will the Holy Spirit always grant repentance to those who will be saved?"

Loaded question here, based on what I believe to be a misunderstanding of what is being said in Ac. 11:18. Scripture does speak of believers, where God gives repentance, upon the teaching of the word, to some who have been taken in the snare of the devil. (II Tim. 2:24-26)

Hope this helps. And a belated welcome to the Baptist Board. :thumbs:

And FTR, I do not know (nor do I particularly care) what Dr. John MacArthur, or anyone else says or has said about the questions you asked.

Ed

 

[jcjordan]

I would not recognize Dr. MacArthur, were I to meet him on the street, since faces do not show up through a radio very well, and I don't get cable or have a dish, and he is not on the TV locally (which I seldom watch, anyway), unlike Shawn Boostra, Dr. Charles Stanley or Dr. Ted Sisk. I might possibly recognize his voice, upon hearing it, were he to speak, but I would not even guarantee that.

Here ya go!

O.K., now on to your replies. For now, I'll just handle the first two questions:

1.) "Will one whom Christ has saved, have sorrow for their sin?"

Some, no doubt may, cases in point David (Ps. 38:18) and apparently Peter, who wept bitterly, (Lk. 22:62) but Scripture never says this will always, or even likely, be the case, in any verses of which I am aware. Isaiah saw his inadequacy, (Isa. 6:5), but that is not the same thing.

"Godly sorrow produces a change of mind unto an irrevocable salvation." (II Cor. 7:10a) (However!) "but worldly sorrow produces death." (II Cor. 7:10b) Sorrow over the sins, for a believer, can actually 'consume' one, meaning there is such a thing as too much sorrow, I would say. (II Cor. 2:7)

So, are you saying that it is possible for one who Christ has saved to not have Godly sorrow toward his/her sin?

2.) "Will Christ permit one who has been saved to live a lifestyle of obstinate disobedience to God's Word?"

Scripture does not answer this either, directly, as to whether or not this can happen. However, Paul mentions some that were ill, and some that apparently had their lives shortened, because of sin. (I Cor. 11:30) We may be 'judged' in this life (I Cor. 11:31); we certainly will be judged at the Bema (Rom. 14:10; II Cor. 5:10) However, your question puzzles me, a bit. It implies either 'knowledge' that I suggest one cannot rightly have, about another, unless one has the ability to know one's motives, or gets additional 'revelation', by God. Also how do you know someone is living this alleged lifestyle of obstinate disobedience? Where are these standards given? Personally, I have seen, on these pages, what I consider to be an awfully lot of 'judging' about matters of which Scripture is silent. Not to mention, multiple threads and posts where someone has effectively claimed the ability to known whether or not someone is saved, based on their supposed "fruits", and how these 'fruits' measure up to some undefined standard. "I don't judge anyone, but I certainly can be a 'fruit-inspector', for God said we could be!" (Nevermind that Scripture said no such thing!) Interestingly, I was not aware, from Scripture, that USDA employees had any sort of 'special salvation status'

O.K. Here's an example: Suppose a "professing christian" cheats on his wife and moves in with another woman. The leaders of his church approach him and point out scripture to him, showing him how he is in sin and aks for him to repent. If that man were to say, "I know what the Bible says and I don't care." Would it be right for the leaders to question this man's prefession of faith? Let's suppose this man really had no godly sorrow or desire to stop lving a lifestyle he clearly knew was against God's will....can he really be a true Christian?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Not fair..I was beat to the punch..

 

[Marcia]

Suppose a "professing christian" cheats on his wife and moves in with another woman. The leaders of his church approach him and point out scripture to him, showing him how he is in sin and aks for him to repent. If that man were to say, "I know what the Bible says and I don't care." Would it be right for the leaders to question this man's prefession of faith? Let's suppose this man really had no godly sorrow or desire to stop lving a lifestyle he clearly knew was against God's will....can he really be a true Christian?

This is a good question but can we really know in such a case if someone is a believer or not at this point? What if he says this but he says it because he is convicted and is angry that he's convicted and doesn't want to admit it yet? So suppose a few months go by and now the conviction is really heavy on him, he repents and goes back to his wife. He is full of regret and begs God for forgiveness. I have known a couple of cases like this. So at a certain point, we may think the person is not a believer but later on will see that he/she is.

We can't dissect all this stuff - God deals with people differently. People respond differently. Only God knows who is really saved in such cases.

Now, if the man never shows regret at this action and continues to live with another woman or maybe even another one after this one, never going back to his wife over a period of many years, then one may reasonably speculate that he is not a believer. But for how long does this need to go on to assume this? We really can't know. Are we going to make out a timetable and say, "By 3 months, 1 week, and 3 days, he must repent; after that, he is not a believer." No, of course not.

I am addressing this case specifically, so please do not generalize as to what I believe outside of this.

 

[jcjordan]

This is a good question but can we really know in such a case if someone is a believer or not at this point? What if he says this but he says it because he is convicted and is angry that he's convicted and doesn't want to admit it yet? So suppose a few months go by and now the conviction is really heavy on him, he repents and goes back to his wife. He is full of regret and begs God for forgiveness. I have known a couple of cases like this. So at a certain point, we may think the person is not a believer but later on will see that he/she is.

We can't dissect all this stuff - God deals with people differently. People respond differently. Only God knows who is really saved in such cases.

Now, if the man never shows regret at this action and continues to live with another woman or maybe even another one after this one, never going back to his wife over a period of many years, then one may reasonably speculate that he is not a believer. But for how long does this need to go on to assume this? We really can't know. Are we going to make out a timetable and say, "By 3 months, 1 week, and 3 days, he must repent; after that, he is not a believer." No, of course not.

I am addressing this case specifically, so please do not generalize as to what I believe outside of this.

Marcia, I agree with you. We can't know for sure. I think however, if after being approached and instructed to repent, if he refuses, he needs to be treated as an unbeliever. I'm not saying that I'm sure at this point he is an unbeliever, but we shouldn't be giving him any comfort in his rebellion toward God by telling giving him what may be false assurance that he is a believer. This is my biggest concern with the non-lordship view.....giving assurance to those who shouldn't have any assurance.

 

[swaimj]

Will one whom Christ has saved, have sorrow for their sin?
Yes. However, the issue with LS is "does a person have sorrow for their sins prior to salvation? One of the motives for a person getting saved is that they realize they are a sinner. Not in a thoretical way, but they actually become conscious of the sin that dominates their life--or at least one sin that dominates their life. After salvation, in the process of discipleship people become more and more aware of their sin. I have had several experiences in the last 3 years, mostly through interaction with my wife of 3 years, where I came to realize really ugly sinful practices and I have had to repent of these--and struggle with them. Believers should be experiencing such changes in their life on a regular basis as they interact with other believers and as they interact with the scriptures.

Will Christ permit one who has been saved to live a lifestyle of obstinate disobedience to God's Word? Ultimately, no. But God is a God of patience and longsuffering. Sometimes he will allow a believer to go quite deeply into sin. We are not equipped to judge such matters. If a believer goes into sin we are to restore them in a spirit of meekness. If they refuse to repent we are to treat them like an unbeliever; which I take to mean we are to evangelize them. Either way we point them to Christ as the source of hope if they will repent and their judge if they will not. However, we are not equipped to determine whether another person is saved or not. Only God knows.

Will those whom Christ has saved also be sanctified? As in the answer above, yes, ultimately, they will be. How God brings about sanctification in this life and when is God's business. We are not equipped to declare whether another person is saved or not.

Will the Holy Spirit always grant repentance to those who will be saved? This question seems to be assuming the whole regeneration prior to faith thing--a thing which I think is unfounded--a thing that I have addressed numerous times on the BB--a thing that has been discussed more times on the BB than I can count or care to participate in. This question is in the class of baiting questions which includes "Do you still beat your wife". To answer it is to agree with the assumption that it includes. I do not agree with the assumption, so I will not address it.

 

[swaimj]

JCJordan, let me point out a problem I have with what you are saying. In your first post you said

To me, these non LS people are defining themselves more by how they disagree with John MacArther then explaining exactly what they believe.

Then you follow with questions asking others to clarify what they believe.

Then, in a response to Marcia, you say this:

This is my biggest concern with the non-lordship view.....giving assurance to those who shouldn't have any assurance.

Here, you are not asking what others believe but you are stating what they believe. If you already know what non-LSers believe and what the biggest problem is with their view, why did you need to ask them what they believe in your four questions?

I appreciate your questions and the attempt to engender a conversation, but your comment to Marcia makes that attempt seem a little insincere. Perhaps it would be better to interact with what is actually said here rather than pigeon-hole others with preconceived notions.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

JCJordan, let me point out a problem I have with what you are saying. In your first post you saidThen you follow with questions asking others to clarify what they believe.

Then, in a response to Marcia, you say this:Here, you are not asking what others believe but you are stating what they believe. If you already know what non-LSers believe and what the biggest problem is with their view, why did you need to ask them what they believe in your four questions?

I appreciate your questions and the attempt to engender a conversation, but your comment to Marcia makes that attempt seem a little insincere. Perhaps it would be better to interact with what is actually said here rather than pigeon-hole others with preconceived notions.

As an note to this comment..I have been asking for the non-lordship creed for a week now...:laugh:

 

[TCGreek]

I have an abundance of respect for John MacArthur. I have met the man personally. I have signed copies of his books.

 

[jcjordan]

JCJordan, let me point out a problem I have with what you are saying. In your first post you saidThen you follow with questions asking others to clarify what they believe.

Then, in a response to Marcia, you say this:Here, you are not asking what others believe but you are stating what they believe. If you already know what non-LSers believe and what the biggest problem is with their view, why did you need to ask them what they believe in your four questions?

I appreciate your questions and the attempt to engender a conversation, but your comment to Marcia makes that attempt seem a little insincere. Perhaps it would be better to interact with what is actually said here rather than pigeon-hole others with preconceived notions.

The thing is that I've heard some anti-LS people say such a thing and I'm interested in finding out if you guys believe the same sort of thing.

 

[EdSutton]

posted by jcjordan and ReformedBaptist:

Got it! John MacArthur resembles a Bible totin', younger brother of John McCain.

I'm impressed.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

So, are you saying that it is possible for one who Christ has saved to not have Godly sorrow toward his/her sin?

I am saying nothing of the sort. I gave a Scriptural answer, I believe, in that Scripture does not anywhere declare that this will always be the case, that I can find. I am not interested in speculation, for this.

O.K. Here's an example: Suppose a "professing christian" cheats on his wife and moves in with another woman. The leaders of his church approach him and point out scripture to him, showing him how he is in sin and aks for him to repent. If that man were to say, "I know what the Bible says and I don't care." Would it be right for the leaders to question this man's prefession of faith? Let's suppose this man really had no godly sorrow or desire to stop lving a lifestyle he clearly knew was against God's will....can he really be a true Christian?

I see the USDA has fewer openings for "fruit-inspectors" than I might have guessed! Incidentally, if you have already decided what answers you will 'accept' to the so-called questions, why bother with asking them?

And since I am really not interested in suppositions and playing "charades" or any other games at this late hour, I am shortly going to :sleeping_2:

Ed.

 

[EdSutton]

This is a good question but can we really know in such a case if someone is a believer or not at this point? What if he says this but he says it because he is convicted and is angry that he's convicted and doesn't want to admit it yet? So suppose a few months go by and now the conviction is really heavy on him, he repents and goes back to his wife. He is full of regret and begs God for forgiveness. I have known a couple of cases like this. So at a certain point, we may think the person is not a believer but later on will see that he/she is.

We can't dissect all this stuff - God deals with people differently. People respond differently. Only God knows who is really saved in such cases.

Now, if the man never shows regret at this action and continues to live with another woman or maybe even another one after this one, never going back to his wife over a period of many years, then one may reasonably speculate that he is not a believer. But for how long does this need to go on to assume this? We really can't know. Are we going to make out a timetable and say, "By 3 months, 1 week, and 3 days, he must repent; after that, he is not a believer." No, of course not.

I am addressing this case specifically, so please do not generalize as to what I believe outside of this.

Marcia, I agree with you. We can't know for sure. I think however, if after being approached and instructed to repent, if he refuses, he needs to be treated as an unbeliever. I'm not saying that I'm sure at this point he is an unbeliever, but we shouldn't be giving him any comfort in his rebellion toward God by telling giving him what may be false assurance that he is a believer. This is my biggest concern with the non-lordship view.....giving assurance to those who shouldn't have any assurance.

Marcia, you are being 'baited' here, IMO.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

As an note to this comment..I have been asking for the non-lordship creed for a week now...:laugh:

Since I subscribe en toto to but one 'creed,' namely



I can offer no other.

but I would offer that I have also asked that posters not use the pejoratives "non-lordship" and "no-lordship," since they are misleading, at best, totally inaccurate, and a questioning of someone's salvation at worst. This request has apparently fallen on deaf ears, as well.

Anyone who can type multiple posts in a given day, and I include myself in that number, can certainly find the small amount of additional time necessary to accurately label a position with the one I hold on this subject being discussed as that of "Non-Lordship salvation", IMO.

Ed

 

[Goldie]

Since I'm one of the non-Lordship Salvationists, I will answer these questions:

Will one whom Christ has saved, have sorrow for their sin?

My answer to this would be NO, because we are not called to feel sorrow for our sins - according to Romans 3:19 we are to instead recognize our guilt: "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

The Greek word for "guilty" in the original Textus Receptus is "hupodikos" which means "under judgment". So what Romans 3:19 in effect means is this: We have to realize our guilt to be saved, that God's judgment is upon us as sinners. And realizing one's guilt isn't a work. Besides, sorrow is relative, and if we are required to be sorrowful for our sins in order to be saved, exactly how much sorrow would we have to feel in order to be saved? 5%? 10%? 20%? 50%?. So it's easy to see how people can then boast in themselves by feeling sorrow - they'll compare their 50% of sorrow to someone else's 20% Yes? And the Bible tells us only to boast IN HIM - in HIS righteousness.

Let me further add that realizing one's guilt is totally different to feeling sorrow, because to feel sorrow is emotion, whereas guilt is self-awareness. They are not the same, a good example of this would be where people walk down to the altar at church and cry with emotion over their failures in life, yet they will have no awareness that they are under God's condemnation and are awaiting judgment for their sins.

Will Christ permit one who has been saved to live a lifestyle of obstinate disobedience to God's Word?

It's called free will. God gave man free will - we aren't puppets on a string, and neither does He baby-sit us. If He were to intercede and stop us from sinning/being disobedient, then He would be defeating the purpose behind our free will. God will never over-ride or nullify our free will. Examples of free will in the Bible:

Genesis 1:27 - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

In effect that means that if God created man without a free will, then God Himself has no free will because we're made in His image. And we all know God has free will, eh? We can see it in His sovereignity.

Acts 2:21 - And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Will those whom Christ has saved also be sanctified?

I think you have basically answered your own question without realizing it. Sanctification means "to be set apart for special use", in other words, to be set apart for the Lord's work, so you see, it doesn't mean "sinless perfection" like most people erroneously think. Look at it this way: the pulpit in church is sanctified because it is set apart for the preaching and teaching of God's Word. When a person is saved, he/she automatically becomes sanctified, because he/she is set apart for heaven. All debts have been settled, Christ paid the price. It's simple - if you aren't saved, you aren't sanctified.

Will the Holy Spirit always grant repentance to those who will be saved?

I'm having a tough time understanding this question because it basically doesn't make sense to me, as I'm not sure what is meant of "always grant repentance", so I'm taking it to mean "always grant forgiveness", secondly I'm not sure what is meant by "those who will be saved", and I'm taking it to mean "those that are saved", so it is with this in mind that I will answer this question.

First off, salvation isn't an ongoing saga of sorrow and having scraped knees. It's a once-off thing and it comes with assurance and eternal security. You turn from your unbelief because you realize your guilt and start trusting in Him - He in turn forgives you of all your sins - past, present & future - and He gives you His seal, the Holy Spirit, who is called Helper, Comforter and Teacher in the Bible.

Now to my mind, I couldn't ask for more - I'm secure in Him. He is my Saviour, my God, my Creator, who died so that I can have eternal life.

 

[Deacon]

I’m against Lordship salvation; the term "anti-Lordship" shows prejudice.
Those that are against Lordship salvation still believe in the Lordship of Christ.

My problem with Lordship salvation is that it puts the cart before the horse.
It doesn’t separate the results of salvation from the requirements for salvation.

Your questions don’t reach to the heart of this matter.

Rob

 

[Goldie]

Those that are against Lordship salvation still believe in the Lordship of Christ.

Absolutely. :applause:

the results of salvation from the requirements for salvation.

Yep, it doesn't separate the root of the believer's faith from the fruit of the believer's faith.

Your questions don’t reach to the heart of this matter.

True.

I have signed copies of his books.

His books are good - good for starting a fire and barbequing on a Sunday afternoon. My only concern is being poisoned from the ink of his signature Gag.......... cough......... splutter.............

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Since I subscribe en toto to but one 'creed,' namely



I can offer no other.

but I would offer that I have also asked that posters not use the pejoratives "non-lordship" and "no-lordship," since they are misleading, at best, totally inaccurate, and a questioning of someone's salvation at worst. This request has apparently fallen on deaf ears, as well.

Anyone who can type multiple posts in a given day, and I include myself in that number, can certainly find the small amount of additional time necessary to accurately label a position with the one I hold on this subject being discussed as that of "Non-Lordship salvation", IMO.

Ed

Hopefully Ed, I will be making a thread regarding creeds and confessions. I hope you join that discussion.