Questions for the anti-Lordship Salvation people..

[Havensdad]

Let me start first with a statement, that I think correctly sets the point of division, in terms that all can understand.

Ultimately, the debate of LS vs. Non LS, comes down to this> Is discipleship an optional second step after salvation, or is salvation the starting point of being a disciple?

For instance, let me show this in two sentences>

L.S.> A saved man will follow Christ and grow in righteousness.

Non L.S.> A saved man should follow Christ and grow in righteousness. (or alternatively, "A saved man "in most cases" will follow Christ and grow in righteousness in his life")

Please keep comments as brief as possible. I know this can be a complex subject.

 

[swaimj]

Havensdad! Good grief! More questions?

Four questions were posted at the start of this thread and three NLSers have answered them. Now, instead of interacting with our answers, you have more questions!

Interact with our answers on this thread, please. Otherwise, if you have more questions, start another thread. (Can't believe I'm recommending someone to start another thread about Lordship Salvation!)

:BangHead: :tonofbricks: :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Havensdad]

Havensdad! Good grief! More questions?

Four questions were posted at the start of this thread and three NLSers have answered them. Now, instead of interacting with our answers, you have more questions!

Interact with our answers on this thread, please. Otherwise, if you have more questions, start another thread. (Can't believe I'm recommending someone to start another thread about Lordship Salvation!)

:BangHead: :tonofbricks: :smilewinkgrin:

LOL! Hey, there are 4 pages of responses...I am not ready to do a doctoral thesis! You might point out one particular post that you found particularly poignant?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Is discipleship an optional second step after salvation, or is salvation the starting point of being a disciple?

Well, let me offer an answer. Salvation is the starting point of being a disciple.

Let me keep it simple too.

A disciple = A Christian

A non-disciple = A non-Christian.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Will one whom Christ has saved, have sorrow for their sin?
Yes. However, the issue with LS is "does a person have sorrow for their sins prior to salvation? One of the motives for a person getting saved is that they realize they are a sinner. Not in a thoretical way, but they actually become conscious of the sin that dominates their life--or at least one sin that dominates their life. After salvation, in the process of discipleship people become more and more aware of their sin. I have had several experiences in the last 3 years, mostly through interaction with my wife of 3 years, where I came to realize really ugly sinful practices and I have had to repent of these--and struggle with them. Believers should be experiencing such changes in their life on a regular basis as they interact with other believers and as they interact with the scriptures.

Will Christ permit one who has been saved to live a lifestyle of obstinate disobedience to God's Word? Ultimately, no. But God is a God of patience and longsuffering. Sometimes he will allow a believer to go quite deeply into sin. We are not equipped to judge such matters. If a believer goes into sin we are to restore them in a spirit of meekness. If they refuse to repent we are to treat them like an unbeliever; which I take to mean we are to evangelize them. Either way we point them to Christ as the source of hope if they will repent and their judge if they will not. However, we are not equipped to determine whether another person is saved or not. Only God knows.

Will those whom Christ has saved also be sanctified? As in the answer above, yes, ultimately, they will be. How God brings about sanctification in this life and when is God's business. We are not equipped to declare whether another person is saved or not.

Will the Holy Spirit always grant repentance to those who will be saved? This question seems to be assuming the whole regeneration prior to faith thing--a thing which I think is unfounded--a thing that I have addressed numerous times on the BB--a thing that has been discussed more times on the BB than I can count or care to participate in. This question is in the class of baiting questions which includes "Do you still beat your wife". To answer it is to agree with the assumption that it includes. I do not agree with the assumption, so I will not address it.

Ditto!

This Lordship Salvation seems to be just another form of Calvinism.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Revmitchell]

Ditto!

This Lordship Salvation seems to be just another form of Calvinism.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

It is not even close.

 

[Pilgrimer]

This Lordship Salvation seems to be just another form of Calvinism.

It is not even close.

Are they not both based on the idea of the predestination of the believer in the sovereignty of God vs. free will of man debate? If not then help me to understand where the Lordship Salvation idea comes from that regeneration preceeds repentance.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Ditto!

This Lordship Salvation seems to be just another form of Calvinism.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

I can live with that. JM himself in his book said this subject lands square on soteriology.

 

[Revmitchell]

Are they not both based on the idea of the predestination of the believer in the sovereignty of God vs. free will of man debate? If not then help me to understand where the Lordship Salvation idea comes from that regeneration preceeds repentance.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

While there are some who hold to what is called "Lordship Salvation" who are reformed not all are. This is not tied into predestination. Predestination whether defined by regular baptists or particular baptists stand alone. As does the biblical position that if Christ is not your Lord you are not saved.

 

[swaimj]

You might point out one particular post that you found particularly poignant?

You mean you didn't think my responses were poignant?:saint:

 

[DHK]

Well, let me offer an answer. Salvation is the starting point of being a disciple.

Let me keep it simple too.

A disciple = A Christian

A non-disciple = A non-Christian.

This is mis-leading at best.
The word "disciple" literally means "follower."
The word "Christian" literally means "follower of Christ."

Therefore, who can disagree with you? Obviously a Christian is a disciple by the strict definitions of the words, or by their literal interpretations.
But LS advocates do not define "disciple" simply as "follower." Their definition includes hard stringent conditions, almost impossible for even the most dedicated of Christians to keep, and certainly impossible for a new Christian to keep. It is impossible for one to equate salvation and Lordship (discipleship) as defined by LS advocates in the same boat. They are two separate topics or stages of growth.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

The word "disciple" literally means "follower."
The word "Christian" literally means "follower of Christ."

Therefore, who can disagree with you?

:laugh: :thumbs: Awesome.

To put it simply, the gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ's authority. This, in a nutshell, is what is commonly referred to as lordship salvation. -John MacArthur

There is Lordship Salvation as defined by JM.

 

[Deacon]

John MacArthur
"To put it simply, the gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ's authority.
This, in a nutshell, is what is commonly referred to as lordship salvation."

There is Lordship Salvation as defined by JM.

To see what MacArthur means, let him flesh out his own phrase offered above: "…and yield to Christ's authority…"

“…the view that for salvation a person must trust Jesus Christ as his Savior from sin and must commit himself to Christ as Lord of his life, submitting to his sovereign authority.”
John MacArthur, The Gospel According to Jesus (p33,34)

IMO, the underlined portion is the result of salvation, not a condition for salvation!

Rob

 

[webdog]

To see what MacArthur means, let him flesh out his own phrase offered above: "…and yield to Christ's authority…"

“…the view that for salvation a person must trust Jesus Christ as his Savior from sin and must commit himself to Christ as Lord of his life, submitting to his sovereign authority.”
John MacArthur, The Gospel According to Jesus (p33,34)

IMO, the underlined portion is the result of salvation, not a condition for salvation!

Rob

You have got it correct :thumbs:

 

[Goldie]

LS people believe that any good work we do is a result of the Holy Spirit regenerating us.

Really? Then why do LS proponents believe in giving up their sins to receive the Holy Spirit, i.e., before regeneration?

 

[TCGreek]

LS people believe that any good work we do is a result of the Holy Spirit regenerating us.

Any good that we do that honors God must be a work of the Holy Spirit, whether a person espouse LS or not.

On what basis then may I do good that honors God? Am I capable of myself to do good that honors God?

"But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!" (Gal 5:22-23, NLTse, emphasis added)

I suggest that whoever made this comment address their understanding of the Holy Spirit in the life of God's people.

 

[webdog]

Any good that we do that honors God must be a work of the Holy Spirit, whether a person espouse LS or not.

On what basis then may I do good that honors God? Am I capable of myself to do good that honors God?

"But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!" (Gal 5:22-23, NLTse, emphasis added)

I suggest that whoever made this comment address their understanding of the Holy Spirit in the life of God's people.

You missed the point that good works don't require regeneration. I don't think anybody will argue that there is nothing good from within us, but when an atheist helps a child avoid being hit by a car, the "work" most definately honors God despite the condition of the person.

 

[jcjordan]

but when an atheist helps a child avoid being hit by a car, the "work" most definately honors God despite the condition of the person.

I'm not sure if that is true. I'll tread very carefully here....but I wonder if it truly honors God when a good work is done to someone elses glory other than God. Any work that an athiest might do, is done out of another motive, other than glorifying God. Is this really honoring to God? I'm not sure it is.

 

[jcjordan]

Really? Then why do LS proponents believe in giving up their sins to receive the Holy Spirit, i.e., before regeneration?

They don't.

 

[webdog]

I'm not sure if that is true. I'll tread very carefully here....but I wonder if it truly honors God when a good work is done to someone elses glory other than God. Any work that an athiest might do, is done out of another motive, other than glorifying God. Is this really honoring to God? I'm not sure it is.

The motive would selflessness, which I believe honors God. I'm sure after the fact selfishness may set in, but the most important commandment is to love God, and the second most important is to love our neighbors as ourselves.