Quick-and-Dirty Calvinism

[BobRyan]

Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Commentary
tormented . . . in the presence of . . . angels-- (Ps 49:14; 58:10; 139:21; Isa 66:24). God's enemies are regarded by the saints as their enemies, and when the day of probation is past, their mind shall be so entirely one with God's, that they shall rejoice in witnessing visibly the judicial vindicationGod's righteousness in sinners' punishment.

http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=014

T

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Yeah, I found that reference too. It seems to say that the saints will too busy rejoicing over the torment of the lost (including your lost children - in your scenario) to mourn.

The author's point is in perfect harmony with "Rc"'s post above and is in perfect harmony with the many texts pointing to the saints being WITH the LAMB at that time.

I reject the author's conclusion that the saints will be rejoicing as they visibly watch the torment and suffering of their precious children. (Though that point fits very well with what RC expects in his Calvinist model)

But the author does conclude that they see this "visibly" and seems to admit to the fact that the saints are WITH the LAMB (A point that is made repeatedly in scripture) AS well as the Rev 14:10 fact that the wicked are tormented "IN the PRESENCE of the LAMB" -- hence his statement about the saints seeing the torment of the wicked.

This is clearly pictured "AGAIN" by John in Rev 20 where the camp of the saints is at first surrounded by the wicked and then the fire of God comes down in wrath and consumes the wicked who are all in proximity (surrounding the holy city) after the 1000 years and the 2nd resurrection (The resurrection of the unrighteous).

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

But it is never translated Saints when the word Hagios is used in conjunction with another noun as in Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, Holy Angels.

In looking at this usage I think you are right and if you notice my post of Rev 14 above is careful to respect that point.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

IN the CFS exposure of Calvinism to the light of day - I only have the Calvinist parent allowed a "moments concern" for their precious loved one. AND I note in the CFS that THIS IS the one point I expect Calvinists to object to because I "fully expect" Calvinists to be continually on a path that is ever closer in character and POV to their view of God and what HE is like as viewed through the eyes of Calvinism.

RC and JohnP have both come out strongly in favor of that summation for Calvinism and even you objected somewhat to the Parent being "Allowed" to have selfless love and concern for their own child.

In Calvinism the Royal Law - the Law of Love is effectively chopped in half. IT only really needs Love for God. Love for our fellow man - EVEN LOVE for our own precious CHILDREN is optional depending on whether that child is arbitrarily selected as "IN" or "OUT". In fact it is downright "sinful" to have selfless love and concern for that child if they do not "make the cut" in the arbitrary selection model

JohnP tried to solve this problem for his own case by claiming that the doctrine of "election by genetics" for both his children and his grandchildren.

The other Calvinists were noticably quiet during that fiasco.

Spurgeon however is not silent about denying such a thing as the basis for election.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[Hardsheller]

As a Calvinist I am concerned about my lost children and relatives and will be concerned and "upset" about their eternal condition until the moment I draw my last breath.

What I object to in your Scenario is the idea that life will go on in the spiritual world in same general framework that life goes on here in the physical world.

When I die I expect to receive a spiritual body. That will include everything new except my soul. To dogmatically state that all emotions, feelings and human reactions will be the same in our spiritual bodies as they are in our physical bodies is not consistent with what I find in Scripture.

For example when Jesus was asked about marriage in Heaven, he replied, Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Marriage is a strong emotional bond between a Christian man and a Christian woman. If marriage does not exist in Heaven the what do we make of the other relationships?

If I'm not going to know my wife who is in heaven with me in a loving relational way then how could I feel sorrow over lost children who aren't there?

 

[Bob Krajcik]

Hardsheller:

I think you have answered very well.

Revelation 21:4 (KJV) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

1 John 2:17 (KJV) And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 7:31 (KJV) And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.

Isaiah 35:10 (KJV) And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
As a Calvinist I am concerned about my lost children and relatives and will be concerned and "upset" about their eternal condition until the moment I draw my last breath.

What I object to in your Scenario is the idea that life will go on in the spiritual world in same general framework that life goes on here in the physical world.

Obviously this IS the objection I LIST in the Calvinist Scenario ITSELF!!

Look closely at the objection INSIDE the scenario --

5 and 4 pt Calvinist Future Scenario:

“Showing” the requirement of 4 and 5 point Calvinism to have the “luxury” of a cold disregard for the non-elect “When the non-Elect are finally Known”. (In the perfect Calvinist Utopian future). This scenario simply removes that “luxury” (for a moment) in order to emphasize the point 4-5 Pt Calvinism makes about God Himself – vs the view that “God so Loved the World that He Gave…Really” (something that both Arminians and 3-pt Calvinists seem to Agree on).

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
When the 4 OR 5-point-Calvinist finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his OWN precious sweet daughter who passed the age of accountability as the MANY of Matt 7 -- now writhing in the agony of eternal roasting in hell - he may well run to his sovereign lord with the cry

"Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! Couldn't you have done Something for my precious child??"

And of course the answer will come back that Calvinism so loves to hear – "Why of course I COULD - IF I had Cared to"!

"Hallelujah!" cries out the Calvinist - that IS the Gospel I was proclaiming!! Ahh that blissful eternity with calvinism's God that unfairly saved you but not your precious daughter - and you will be praising through all eternity that YOU were spared though she was not. (For it IS all about the saved/electin the end)

We see Calvinists blessing the fact that He chose You – AND that it was "unfair" as you say - but it was graciously unfair IN YOUR favor - just not your precious daughter's.

So just enjoy! Enjoy! Unjust Mercy - oh the Calvinist bliss.

&lt;You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?&gt;

Here we see Calvinism’s view of God who (arbitrarily from the POV of human eyes) selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the Calvinist mind.
</font>[/QUOTE]Calvinist future scenario complete!


Notice the “focus” in that perfect Calvinist utopian future - is always on “you” the one that is arbitrarily selected and then justifying the callous disregard of your precious child under the guise of “Well God does not HAVE to care about ANYONE just be glad YOU made it”.
Fascinating!

All well and good for the Cavlinist position - but what about the Arminian view?

And for us Arminians (and our 3-Pt Calvinist Bretheren) - well we will just have to be content with the fact that God really DOES "So Love the World" not merely the "Few " of Matt 7 - and He is the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT our sins only - but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2::2.

We will have to be content in all eternity with the God that DOES Love ALL and died for ALL and "IS not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to Repentance". Somehow that will have to help us enjoy eternity too. I wonder how we will fair by comparison.

-------------------------

The POINT of the scenario was to open a tiny door to the lost - where Calvinists COULD NOT have the "standard luxury" of a heartlessly cold disregard for the lost suffering in hell since it is THEIR OWN PRECIOUS LITTLE GIRL!!

In the scenario this door ONLY opens for a moment and then is SLAMMED SHUT as the parent is thrust back into pure heartless utopian Calvinism!! They are even praising God over the final state JUST as Calvinism insists should be the case!!

So that door to God's perfect Law of Love - was ONLY opened a tiny bit - but EVEN that small amount - is difficult for Calvinists to swallow for that future scenario.

I admit it from the very start.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Hardsheller]

Bob,

So really what you are saying is that God must meet your qualifications and standards to be God.

You cannot accept him as Isaiah did.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
[
When I die I expect to receive a spiritual body. That will include everything new except my soul. To dogmatically state that all emotions, feelings and human reactions will be the same in our spiritual bodies as they are in our physical bodies is not consistent with what I find in Scripture.

Then you did not read 1 Cor 13 as Carefully as a loving parent should have!

The God of LOVE who calls you spells out clearly that though ALL OTHER faulty emotions should die out - LOVE will only grow stronger through eternity. The Love the saintly parent has NOW for their precious little girl is NOTHING compared to how much MORE They will love her selflessly PERFECTLY as THE GOD OF LOVE loves her!!

But Calvinism has another view of God. God who "Does NOT LOVE the World" God who "DOES NOT LOVE your precious little girl AS MUCH AS YOU DO" and in ALL future scenarios for every religious system - the one going to heaven to be WITH God - will always become MORE LIKE the God they describe -- not LESS like Him.

Calvinism is no exception.

The tragic statements made here by Calvinists - insisting that God take away from them THEIR OWN selfless Godly-love for their OWN CHILDREN is a landmark TESTIMONY to the glaring error of Calvinism!!

For example when Jesus was asked about marriage in Heaven, he replied, Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

This fallacy of equivocation is failed from the start! In that scenario ALL parties are IN HEAVEN. So now you are arguing that NOT ONLY will the saints Love their OWN CHILDREN LESS (children who are lost) BUT They will also love FELLOW SAINTS LESS!!!!

Truly your "Cavlinism-at-all-costs" approach is leading you into error after error like a reed tossed about by the waves and wind.

Marriage is a strong emotional bond between a Christian man and a Christian woman. If marriage does not exist in Heaven the what do we make of the other relationships?

I admit that Calvinism "depicts" and arbitrary God who does NOT LOVE the lost and does NOT love the saints enough to allow them to RETAIN their own love for lost children - and in the argument above does NOT allow the saints to even retain the love they have for each other at the same high level they have in this sinful polluted SELFISH world.

BY CONTRAST the Arminian view is that the saints love each other MORE - but lose the marriage partnership aspect for home-building. Yet they know each other and love each other FAR GREATER then than now. As they will ALSO love their precious lost children MORE then in that PERFECT sefless world - than they do now!

For Calvinists I would argue "God so LOVED THE WORLD.. YES REALLY!"

I would say "God IS LOVE .. YES REALLY!"

I would say that they should consider that as sinners on earth the love you have for your own family is IMPERFECT as compared to the FAR GREATER love you will have for EACH member of your family in heaven - the perfect MAGNIFIED 1Cor 13 love that INCREASES over time as you become MORE like God "WHO so LOVED -- YES REALLY!"

God HIMSELF declares ALL HIS COMPASSIONS ARE STIRRED UP within HIM over the lost -- yet Calvinists will turn a blind eye to this in their "all-for-calvinism-defenses" --

God WEEPS over the lost (as we have shown from scripture) and all the Calvinists do is find ways to "edit and redefine" that God - that text, turn a blind eye to it and then IMAGINE how they will have that expected heartless cold indifference toward their own family members when they get to be WITH GOD!!

How sad!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Bob,

So really what you are saying is that God must meet your qualifications and standards to be God.

You cannot accept him as Isaiah did.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

No "REALLY" I am saying that while the Bible is TRUE when it says God WEEPS over the lost crying out "WHY WILL YOU DIE??!!! I have NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked!!" and while the Bible says God cries out "OH HOW I WANTED to save - to gather your children BUT YOU WOULD NOT" and when the Bible says "ALL My compassions are stirred within Me - OH HOW can I give you UP!!" --
I BELIEVE IT!

What I can't believe is the extremes this all-for--calvinism-defense has gone to in direct contradiction of God's Word!!

The text you quote does NOT SAY "My ways are HIGHER then yours for I LOVE LESS THAN YOU -- so come and JOIN ME"

That twist just is not there!!

 

[Hardsheller]

Bob,

I haven't contradicted God's Word - I have contradicted your misunderstood and convoluted interpretation of God's Word.

You are not a Calvinist - Everybody understands that by now. You have the right to be wrong.

You are not a Baptist - I understand that and you have the right to be anything you want to be.

For the umpteenth time. God does not love less than I do, God loves more than I do.

Psa 136:2 Give thanks to the God of gods. His love is eternal.

Mic 7:18 Who is a God like You, removing iniquity and passing over rebellion for the remnant of His inheritance? He does not hold on to His anger forever, because He delights in faithful love.

Zep 3:17 The LORD your God is among you, a warrior who saves. He will rejoice over you with gladness. He will bring you quietness with His love. He will delight in you with shouts of joy."

Do I understand God's Love Completely? NO
Do you understand God's Love completely? NO

Did God choose Israel over all other nations to be His people? Most definitely.

Did that choice diminish his Love for all other nations? In No Way, for he has consistently loved people of other nations - saving them to be his people through his Son Jesus Christ.

Your "Calvinistic" god is a figment of your own imagination for you created him based on your misunderstanding of Calvinistic doctrine and your predisposed aversion to said doctrine. There is no way he represents the God of the Bible and Calvinists are not claiming that regardless of what you say!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Bob,
...
For the umpteenth time. God does not love less than I do, God loves more than I do.

Wonderful!! Welcome back to the Bible side!!

Guess what?! That Love is for "THE WHOLE WORLD" including the children of Calvinist Parents that are lost! God loves them MORE than the PArents do!!

Also some more Good news! When God SAYS that "HE WEEPS" over the lost and that "ALL HIS COMPASSIONS are stirrec" over them -- it is not in a kind of "IF you love your child you have sinned against me" kinda way!!

In fact it is in a "really LOVES them" kinda way!!

That means that INSTEAD of condemning the Parent who shows concern for their lost child -- (as if that parent is some kind of confused Arminian) -- God has MORE love for that child than the parent AND HE wants the parent to "BE LIKE HIM"!!

What a wonderful God we serve!

A God who would never robotize us to NOT LOVE our children in that future scenario!!

(That seems to be a real stretch for some Calvinists - but it is true. "WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM for we shall see him as HE IS". And HE SAYS He weeps over the lost!!)

The Bible gives such a wonderful Arminian picture of God as SO LOVING "ALL" not willing for ANY TO PERISH and WEEPING over the Lost!

Here are just a few of the Bible texts showing us the LOVE of God. Texts that Calvinism has so little room for since it has God LOVING our lost children more than the PARENTs do!!

When God weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Luke 19:
41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,
42saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
43“For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”

Lament over Jerusalem

Matt 23

37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.

Gen 6:
5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

Isaiah 63:So He became their Savior.
9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them,
And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.

ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

Hosea 11:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
Though they call them to the One on high,
None at all exalts Him.
8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I surrender you, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart is turned over within Me,
All My compassions are kindled.

Ezek 18:20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22“All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

</font>[/QUOTE]I am very glad to hear that you know that God loves your children MORE Than you!

I assume you also know that "election by genetics" was never a principle of Calvinism.

True?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hardsheller says --
Your "Calvinistic" god is a figment of your own imagination for you created him based on your misunderstanding of Calvinistic doctrine and your predisposed aversion to said doctrine. There is no way he represents the God of the Bible and Calvinists are not claiming that regardless of what you say!

Ahhhh - the old "Calvinist SHELL GAME"!!

First you complain that I would suggest God ALLOWS the parent to CONTINUE TO CARE for and LOVE their OWN CHILD --- AND THEN When I point out that Calvinism does not tolerate such a loving God - you complain about THAT TOO!!

Wonderful shell gaming sir!

Flip flopping, logic bending of the highest order in your "anything-for-calvinism" defense!

I salute your willingness to go there no matter how illogical, contradictory to scripture, convoluted and unflattering of God.

That is first class!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I did give a long line of texts above "SHOWING" the God that Calvinism does not think "exists" and therefore Calvinism cries out against the travesty of ALLOWING Parents to CARE for children once they see them in torment!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Hardsheller says --
Your "Calvinistic" god is a figment of your own imagination for you created him based on your misunderstanding of Calvinistic doctrine and your predisposed aversion to said doctrine. There is no way he represents the God of the Bible and Calvinists are not claiming that regardless of what you say!

Ahhhh - the old "Calvinist SHELL GAME"!!

First you complain that I would suggest God ALLOWS the parent to CONTINUE TO CARE for and LOVE their OWN CHILD --- AND THEN When I point out that Calvinism does not tolerate such a loving God - you complain about THAT TOO!!

Wonderful shell gaming sir!

Flip flopping, logic bending of the highest order in your "anything-for-calvinism" defense!

I salute your willingness to go there no matter how illogical, contradictory to scripture, convoluted and unflattering of God.

That is first class!!

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you.

 

[Hardsheller]

Sorry Bob, but I reject your Heaven.

The idea that we're all in the sitting room of heaven crying over our lost children for even a miniscule portion of eternity is an unorthodox position, never taught in the Bible or in the history of the Biblical Christianity.

You may be the first - Write a Book and see if it sells.

 

[rc]

Bob,

What was God teaching 'Parents' about "caring" for their children when he gave them this command:

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 18 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, 20 and they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' 21 Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

 

[OCC]

I know I'm not involved in this thread but a few things I read have irked me. One being...the last post.

RC...do you have kids? If so, why don't you do that to them? Don't say it doesn't apply today...otherwise you should not have even used the passage in the first place.

 

[Hardsheller]

After watching some kids today destroy their own lives and the lives of their Godly parents I'm about ready to lead the charge!

 

[OCC]

LOL I didn't expect that answer...I think yer just kidding. I would think anyone who's kids is like that may just be partially responsible. "Don't provoke your children to wrath" God says.

 

[rc]

You don't understand the point KJ...

Bleeding hearts are saying we are going to be crying in heaven over our kiddies that are in hell... This is so unbelievably anthropocentric on God dishonoring as it gets...

You people greatly underestimate the holiness of God and His hatred for sin. We will be like Him in heaven. Loving Him as He does himself in the trinity, and Glorifying Him for His justice... and Grace as those cursing Him are punished.

You so easily create this image of our sons and daughters being so good ... And our personal affections blind ourselves to the truth... To think we are going to have those "thoughts" of love toward them (which I doubt we will have any) in heaven is just wrong.

God gave this command . It shows HIS thoughts towards rebellious children and we should take note! To bring our kids up so they will not face His wrath to come... But if they hate God, they'll be in hell, and I'll have every tear wiped from my eye and will be joyous to sing the praises of my God for eternity. No room for anthropocentric presumptions (which would be sin) about those in hell.