Quick-and-Dirty Calvinism

[OCC]

rc...I'm not missing the point. I get it fully and hear what you are saying. I agree with some of it but not all of it. Why aren't you killing your kids? And why in the world would you even NEED tears removed from your eyes in HEAVEN? You are proving the point.

Also...what about bleeding hearts? Did Jesus have a "bleeding heart"? I do not underestimate God's holiness or hatred of sin. Likewise I do not underestimate God's grace or His love. I go to a Calvinist church and we debate this almost every college and career night.

I think Calvinists doth protest too much and only know how to talk about God's wrath. Where's the love???

 

[rc]

We talk about DOCTRINE, THEOLOGY. If everyone was harping on the WRATH of God then love would be trumpeted, but since everybody is about sloppy agape in the main stream, and theology is poo pooed, God's holiness is needed.

I have two kids 12 and 18. Both are going through the Westminster Confession of Faith and have a solid foundation of who God is and what He is.

Heat and light brother.... heat and light !

 

[OCC]

RC...I love theology and doctrine as well. I used to be a Calvinist. But I go to a Calvinist church and I see the results of it. Too much wrath...not enough love. And remember this...it isn't the Arminians who tend to call Calvinists heretics. But the reverse is true many times.

I have an honest question for you though. Why would you want your kids to go through the Westminister Confession of Faith? Shouldn't the Bible be enough?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Sorry Bob, but I reject your Heaven.

You are free to make that choice.

To continue to think of God as "arbitrarily destroying your child" while "preventing you from showing any concern/care/interest in your precious little one tormented in the fires of hell".

If it really is true that "IT IS ALL ABOUT YOU" then NOT KNOWING is always going to be best for YOU.

I am just surprised you could jump onto that "all for me" view of God - so happily.

The idea that we're all in the sitting room of heaven crying over our lost children for even a miniscule portion of eternity is an unorthodox position

Is that your way of rejecting the scripture that says GOD WEEPS over the lost?

Is that your way of rejecting the scripture that says WE (the SAINTS) will "EVER BE WITH Christ" 1Thess 4 John 14:1-3???

Or is that your way of rejecting the scripture that says that the lost are TORMENTED in the PRESENCE of the LAMB??

Is that you way of rejecting the text telling us that LOVE is the one thing THAT DOES endure and GROW throughout eternity? (1Cor 13)??

How much of the Bible are you willing to toss out the window for Calvinism??

Or do you need me to posts those scriptures "Again" because they are so "quickly put out of mind" when one is Calvinist so that one can CLING to Calvinism "anyway"??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Hardsheller]

Bob,

You really don't read well do you?

R E A D - S L O W L Y - A N D - C A R E F U L L Y..

Your Position is unorthodox as best and heresy at worst. There is no heaven where Christian Parents weep over their lost children.(Period)

The B I B L E doesn't support your position.

Church History doesn't support your position.

The Study and Conclusions of Biblical Scholars don't support your position.

Why don't you just simply admit that you went too far with this farfetched scenario of yours and retreat?

Or - Are you so enamored with minority intrepretations of Scripture (In this case a very small minority - One so far) that you are unwilling or incapable to admit that you are W R O N G?

 

[BobRyan]

#1. There is a heaven where GOD WEEPS and GRIEVES over the LOST - with ALL HIS compassions!! (Luke 19:41, Matt 23, Gen 6, Hosea 11, Ezek 18:31...

The B I B L E supports this - please R E A D the B I B L E

#2. There is a heaven where Parents LOVE THEIR CHILDREN MORE than they do now because LOVE is what REMAINS and GROWS in heaven.

The B I B L E supports this. (1Cor 13)

#3. There IS a heaven where the SAINTS are WITH CHRIST in fact EVER With Christ (1 Thess 4, John 14:1-3)

The B I B L E supports this.


#4. There IS a heaven where the LOST are ALSO in the PRESENCE of Christ! IN fact they SUFFER in the PRESENCE of CHRIST (Rev 14:10)

The B I B L E supports this.


YOU yourself "admitted" that in that situation the parents will be horribly saddened

Y O U said that!

================================

So "What" does a real Calvinist do when confronted with such pointed scripture that devastates the cold-heartless-hopes of Calvinism regarding the finally lost??? (EVEN when if that lost person is their OWN PRECIOUS LITTLE GIRL???))

Why Calvinism "rejoices" and then usings "L A R G E" Words to say "I don't believe the texts, I don't believe the texts, I can't SEE the texts"...

How "instructive" and sad that such a blatant form of eisegesis and Bible "rejection" should even be considered among Calvinists - let alone POSTED!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hardsheller said --

you are W R O N G?

AS comprehensive and insightful as that response is -- (not) -- one wonders what ever happened to actually ADDRESSING the texts and READING the Bible and forming a cogent reply.

Is it that this fact of the suffering of the lost so threatens the NEED of Calvinism for a cold-heartless-disconcern for their OWN CHILDREN if finall lost - that Bible based reasoning flies out the window "in public" for all to see rather than face Bible truth???

I have to tell you - it is pretty amazing! Your post references NO text put forward -- it is a see-no-evil-in-calvinism response that is "at-all-costs".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by rc:
We talk about DOCTRINE, THEOLOGY. If everyone was harping on the WRATH of God then love would be trumpeted, but since everybody is about sloppy agape in the main stream, and theology is poo pooed, God's holiness is needed.

I have two kids 12 and 18. Both are going through the Westminster Confession of Faith and have a solid foundation of who God is and what He is.

Heat and light brother.... heat and light !

To your credit RC you have been consistent with Calvinism on this - INSISTING on the very thing that the Bible shows (at least to some point). Which is that the righteous (parents) WILL IN FACT SEE the torment of the lost.

Your summation about their lack of grief differs with me AND differs with what Hardsheller thinks the parents would feel in such a scenario.

But you DO agree with scripture that they will see it!!

Odd that Hardsheller claims ONLY I think they will "see it"?. He must not be reading your posts.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Hardsheller]

Bob,

We are in agreement with all the verses and cases you quote except #4. There is no Biblical support for Christian Parents in Heaven being in the presence of Jesus Christ and weeping with Him over their lost Children.

You are coming to a conclusion that you want to see and you accuse me of doing the same. How Strange!

 

[Hardsheller]

RC,

Do you believe that Christian Parents in Heaven will see their lost children in Hell and grieve over them in the Presence of Jesus Christ?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by King James:
rc...I'm not missing the point. I get it fully and hear what you are saying. I agree with some of it but not all of it. Why aren't you killing your kids? And why in the world would you even NEED tears removed from your eyes in HEAVEN? You are proving the point.

Indeed BOTH RC and Harsheller are "proving the point" in the CFS that a "Cold heartless disregard" for the finally lost is a luxury "NEEDED" in Calvinism for it to work.

RC steps right up to the plate and agrees -- yep I can do that - so when the Bible shows that the wicked will suffer in our presence as we are WITH Christ -- the torment of the lost WILL be a boost to our love for God and appreciation for grace!

(RC's weakness is that the Bible is clear on our LOVE for our children and all mankind being the thing that REMAINS and GROWS throughout all of heaven. 1Cor13)


Hardsheller agrees in a different way - admitting that to SEE that would be "so awful for the Parents" lets spare THEM CONCERN for their precious little child and continue to torment the child behind their backs!

(Hardsheller's weakness is the Bible texts POINTING to the fact that we will be THERE - and the fact that NEITHER Calvinism nor Arminianism every depicts God as needing to be a "BEHIND THEIR BACKS" kind of God)

Either way -- they are confirming the point of the "luxury" needed.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Hardsheller]

Bob,

I'm from Missouri - SHOW ME.

Show me in the Bible where it says Christian Parents in the Presence of Jesus will grieve in heaven over lost children in hell.

Show me in the annals of Church History where this doctrine of yours has been agreed to and taught.

Show me in the Church today where this is being taught as a reality in Heaven.

Show me in the best commentaries you have where Biblical Scholars have come to this conclusion.

NEWS FLASH. It Cannot be found.

The only place I see it coming from is out of your hard head.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by rc:
[QB] You don't understand the point KJ...

Bleeding hearts are saying we are going to be crying in heaven over our kiddies that are in hell... This is so unbelievably anthropocentric on God dishonoring as it gets...

You people greatly underestimate the holiness of God and His hatred for sin. We will be like Him in heaven. Loving Him as He does himself in the trinity, and Glorifying Him for His justice... and Grace as those cursing Him are punished.

This was my point. YOU become LIKE the god you describe and worship!! You admit the obvious here. You claim that we WILL be able to see that torment and have the SAME joyous reaction you think God has to the torement of our precious little girl!!

Well illustrated! 1Cor13 not withstanding.

RC said --
You so easily create this image of our sons and daughters being so good ... And our personal affections blind ourselves to the truth... To think we are going to have those "thoughts" of love toward them (which I doubt we will have any) in heaven is just wrong.

Again - well said RC. This is EXACTLY the "luxury" I was pointing out as "NEEDED" in Calvinism!!

I was simply making it more "challenging" to CLING to that luxury by selecting a loved one - knowing that the inner Arminian of the Calvinists would be urging truth home as they considered it.

God gave this command . It shows HIS thoughts towards rebellious children and we should take note! To bring our kids up so they will not face His wrath to come...

And of course OUR THOUGHTS will be like HIS towards them so why WOULDN'T we be there watching AS HE watches -- after all we are ever WITH The Lord!!

However that last point of your is an interesting statement about how ELECTION works. You say we SHOULD TAKE NOTE and then we should DO SOMETHING for our kids to ensure God ELECTS THEM. How "arminian" of you.

Your inner arminian is urging truth home for you as well apparently.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
[QB] Bob,

I'm from Missouri - SHOW ME.

This just isn't as hard as you are pretending it is. Just take the texts I gave and SHOW how they do NOT SHOW a MORE LOVING parent IN HEAVEN who is MORE LIKE GOD (even RC admits we are MORE LIKE GOD there than here) -- God who WEEPS over the lost - with our precious loved ones suffering IN HIS PRESENCE and therefore in OURS (even RC admits this will be a JOY).

You to your credit admit that this would be a horrible SHOCK were it to happen.

Show me in the Bible where it says Christian Parents in the Presence of Jesus will grieve in heaven over lost children in hell.

You are free to change your position about how Christian parents would be shocked in that case.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I accept the Bible saying we are ever WITH Christ and that means really IN His presence.

You seem to argue we are WITH HIM but not actually IN his presence since our loved ones are being TORMENTED IN his presence.

Your position is the dubious one sir.

 

[Hardsheller]

Bob,

I seem to remember a man who lived in Waco, Texas who did not take into consideration what History taught, or Biblical Scholars had discerned from scripture, or what the Church taught.

His name was David Koresh and he died in an inferno created by gunfire and explosives.

The point is - Your interpretation of the Bible doesn't mean squat unless the Church affirms it.

Does your church teach this?

I don't know if a Christian Church today that teaches this kind of nonsense that a Christian parent will in heaven in the presence of Jesus Christ grieve over a lost child in hell.

My position is solid. And I have a lot of support.

1. The Bible
2. The Affirmation of the Church through history
3. The Agreement of Biblical Scholars through the Centuries
4. The Church today
5. My Denomination
6. My Peers

You sir, stand alone in your position.

 

[here now]

...a Christian parent will in heaven in the presence of Jesus Christ grieve over a lost child in hell.
**********************************************


Doesn't sound like Heaven to me.

 

[rc]

Bob,
Your theology and exegesis misleads your understanding of Rev. 14

You can't spit out a bunch of "love" verses and interject them in the condition of heaven. Not only that you are interjecting what you "think" God (and us) will be "feeling" in that position.
"Do not make God as man"

We are to love the wicked NOW, but things will be different in heaven.

You think that God "Loves" those in hell.... you interject that because of bad theology. He hates His enemy and so will we. Psalm 5 says "God HATES the wicked" He does hate what they do, but THEM...you HAVE to add that into your theology Bob.

As for seeing our own ... it DOES NOT SAY that, so where scripture is silent so should we.

We will GLORY in the judgement of God over those He hates Rev 19 Rev 16:5-7 . Our spirit will not be contrary to God's. We will be rejoicing in Him for ALL that He is, holy. The love for the loved and the hate for the hated.

This is a link to a PRECISE understanding and STUDY of this subject...
The End of the Wicked Contemplated

 

[BobRyan]

You are still not responding to the Bible texts on this subject.

Why so silent Hardsheller??

Do you have "another basis" for belief?

The points have been made repeatedly, in detail, with Bible text, even showing RC's agreement on parents rejoicing at SEEING the torment of the wicked as well as other non-BOB sources doing the same (you admitted to SEEING those sources).

Now you want to pretend I AM the author of these Bible texts and of RC's comments AND Of YOUR OWN comment that Parents WOULD be SHOCKED were they to actually SEE what RC and the Bible and I say they SEE???

You seem to agree with RC on what God sees and what HE likes -- but you want a "does-it-behind-my-back" solution, which RC does not.

And I SEE that huge elephant in your living room - so now you want to resort to ad hominem???

Come on - step up to the plate and deal with the details of the conversation instead of fleeing out the door with hands over eyes yelling "my denomination! My peers!!".

Lets stick with Sola Scriptura!!

Lets look at what your OWN Calvinists are saying!!

Your running away on this one is not making your case stronger.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by here now:
...a Christian parent will in heaven in the presence of Jesus Christ grieve over a lost child in hell.
**********************************************


Doesn't sound like Heaven to me.

That is the very point I was trying to make with the Calvinist future scenario. They NEED the luxury of cold heartless disconcern for their own lost child when the final state is reached!

That was THE point!!

5 and 4 pt Calvinist Future Scenario:

“Showing” the requirement of 4 and 5 point Calvinism to have the “luxury” of a cold disregard for the non-elect “When the non-Elect are finally Known”. (In the perfect Calvinist Utopian future). This scenario simply removes that “luxury” (for a moment) in order to emphasize the point 4-5 Pt Calvinism makes about God Himself – vs the view that “God so Loved the World that He Gave…Really” (something that both Arminians and 3-pt Calvinists seem to Agree on).

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
When the 4 OR 5-point-Calvinist finds himself in heaven enjoying the perfect love, unity and selfless concern for others that is not possible here on this sinful earth - and then peeking over the ramparts of heaven - observes his OWN precious sweet daughter who passed the age of accountability as the MANY of Matt 7 -- now writhing in the agony of eternal roasting in hell - he may well run to his sovereign lord with the cry

"Oh My Lord, my great God and Savior! Couldn't you have done Something for my precious child??"

And of course the answer will come back that Calvinism so loves to hear – "Why of course I COULD - IF I had Cared to"!

"Hallelujah!" cries out the Calvinist - that IS the Gospel I was proclaiming!! Ahh that blissful eternity with calvinism's God that unfairly saved you but not your precious daughter - and you will be praising through all eternity that YOU were spared though she was not. (For it IS all about the saved/electin the end)

We see Calvinists blessing the fact that He chose You – AND that it was "unfair" as you say - but it was graciously unfair IN YOUR favor - just not your precious daughter's.

So just enjoy! Enjoy! Unjust Mercy - oh the Calvinist bliss.

&lt;You see the problem when the Calvinist model is not “allowed the luxury" of disregarding the fate of the lost - as in the case above?&gt;

Here we see Calvinism’s view of God who (arbitrarily from the POV of human eyes) selects out the FEW of Matt 7 and loves THEM alone - and then represents that to Calvinists as "So Loving the World". Oh the pure joy that thought must cause the Calvinist mind.
</font>[/QUOTE]Calvinist future scenario complete!


Notice the “focus” in that perfect Calvinist utopian future - is always on “you” the one that is arbitrarily selected and then justifying the callous disregard of your precious child under the guise of “Well God does not HAVE to care about ANYONE just be glad YOU made it”.
Fascinating!

All well and good for the Cavlinist position - but what about the Arminian view?

And for us Arminians (and our 3-Pt Calvinist Bretheren) - well we will just have to be content with the fact that God really DOES "So Love the World" not merely the "Few " of Matt 7 - and He is the "Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT our sins only - but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2::2.

We will have to be content in all eternity with the God that DOES Love ALL and died for ALL and "IS not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to Repentance". Somehow that will have to help us enjoy eternity too. I wonder how we will fair by comparison.