Quick-and-Dirty Calvinism

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by rc:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> But that is VERY far from the monsterous claim that God gets JOY out of the torment

This has never been said. Quit setting up strawmen. Your only feeding your own vanity.

God weeps, God doesn't change... oh boy Bob you've impressed me with your two verse systematic theology... please... unfortunately for you and your understanding, God is much more complex than you care to study.

You have been told by me and others that you can not misplace God's actions in different dispensations. You have further not understood the Chief Ends to which God does EVERYTHING. And that is for His Glory. This does transcend this age because of the verses that describe what we will be doing in heaven. You on the other hand are found wanting.... grasping onto a false understanding and trying to force it on people that know better. This is a broken record Bob and broken records are annoying. </font>[/QUOTE]Especially when it's a bad recording artist to begin with.

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
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But that is VERY far from the monsterous claim that God gets JOY out of the torment
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This has never been said. Quit setting up strawmen. Your only feeding your own vanity.

Wrong.

Go to the thread on Johnathan Edwards - it is there in triplicate!

That the torments of the damned are no matter of grief, but of joy, to the inhabitants of heaven, is very clearly expressed in several passages of this book of Revelation; particularly by chap. 16:57, and chap. 19 at the beginning.

See also --
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1479/2.html#000018

"Rejoicing AND Joy" at the sight!!


In Christ,

Bob

[ June 29, 2005, 12:11 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Bob - You Wrote -

The Bible says in fact - that God WEEPS over the lost!!

Where exactly does it say that? Could you give me chapter and verse?

In fact why don't you just cut and paste the verse right in your answer for all the world to see.

Good point - I am getting close to "a dozen" times posting it so far - might as well go for 12.

When the “unchanging God” weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Luke 19:
41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,
42saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.
43“For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”

Lament over Jerusalem

Matt 23

37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.

Gen 6:
5Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
7The LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.”
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

Isaiah 63:So He became their Savior.
9 In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the angel of His presence saved them;
In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them,
And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.

ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

Hosea 11:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.
Though they call them to the One on high,
None at all exalts Him.
8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I surrender you, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart is turned over within Me,
All My compassions are kindled.

Ezek 18:20“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21“But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22“All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23“Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25“Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26“When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
27“Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28“Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29“But the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not right.’ Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

</font>[/QUOTE]Enjoy!

The UNCHANGING God is being described in the texts above - the one who is NOT partial.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Hardsheller]

Thanks Bob for the References. I had missed the Luke reference.

 

[BobRyan]

You are welcome. I considere these texts to show the character and nature of the "unchanging God" who "So loved the World that He Gave..." and declares that in all this - He is not partial at all.

When we see that He weeps and that He claims "all My compassions are stirred up" over the case of the lost -- I think it is best to believe it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Hardsheller]

Bob,

You and I agree that God cares for the Lost and yes even weeps for the lost. However, I cannot agree that this weeping extends to Christian Parents in Heaven observing their lost children in Hell.

 

[rc]

Hardsheller,
God does care for the lost... but NOT WHAT THEY DO! He weeps over WHAT THEY DO. Every verse Bob gives is ASSUMED over WHY God is weeping...

41When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it,
42saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes.

He wept NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR SPIRITUAL STATE but because of WHAT THEY DID. The didn't recognize his visitation... not only that but He then BLINDED THEM... what happened to their free will there? This verse has NOTHING TO DO with salvation at all....

Genesis... same thing ... God is grieved not FOR THE LOST ... what does it SAY? He was grieved that HE MADE MAN.... Shows how important we are huh? Again assuming and interjecting ones philosophy instead of acknowledging what the text says...

Same in Isaiah, Hos. and Ezek... He is sad for what they are doing, not their spiritual state.

Again this is a lack of knowledge theologically.
God's will and character is much more complex than to spin it through a "love filter" and interject man's feelings into what God is saying.

Psalm 50:21 21 These things you have done, and I have been silent; you thought that I was one like yourself.

Just because God doesn't delight in the DEATH of the wicked, it serves His PURPOSE and will be glorified for it for it serves His will and His chief ends.

 

[OCC]

rc...how does it serve His will and His chief ends though?

 

[rc]

King James,
I respect you enough not to give you a simple, trite answer to such a difficult and thoughtful question. To honor your question with all it due respects I would strongly encourage you to take the time to read "The Ends For Which God Created The World" by Jonathan Edwards. It is deep but the reward which I think you will find is VERY rewarding and God glorifying and spiritually encouraging. I think knowing you well enough that you will enjoy the depths of this read.

 

[OCC]

rc...I appreciate your post and kind words. I will see if there is an online version of that book but if not I will try to find a copy.

 

[rc]

kj,

There is EVERYTHING that J.E. did at this site

jonathanedwards.com

It should be under theology but not sure. You will find all kinds of amazing, thought provoking works by him... The best I think are,

The Freedom of the Will (the best I think)
Religious Affections (outstanding)
An unpublished essay on the trinity
A divine a supernatural light
The ends for which God created the world.

And under sermons... the most famous sermon ever given... Sinners in the hands of an angry God.

Awesome stuff...

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Bob,

You and I agree that God cares for the Lost and yes even weeps for the lost. However, I cannot agree that this weeping extends to Christian Parents in Heaven observing their lost children in Hell.

Well that is a start.

Now if we can agree that the saints become MORE like God rather than LESS like God when they go to heaven - we will have the next step.

Given a parent with 4 children. 3 turn out to be among the MANY and 1 among the FEW of Matt 7. They love all FOUR. When they go to heaven will they cease loving 3 and ONLY love the 1???

Will they cease to love ANY OF THEM??

Or will they CONTINUE in LOVE as 1Cor 13 states for ALL of their children and CONTINUE to have the MIND OF CHRIST (1Cor 2) that WEEPS over the lost AS THEY would weep TODAY should they discover even ONE of their children to be lost?!!

I think the path is pretty easy to follow here.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[rc]

The fruit shows what you think is important Bob.
For you it is endless crying for man. That's all you ever talk about.

Again you dismiss proper exegesis and theology of this topic.

Heaven is for us glorifying God. You have no scriptural support for anything else.

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Bob,

You and I agree that God cares for the Lost and yes even weeps for the lost. However, I cannot agree that this weeping extends to Christian Parents in Heaven observing their lost children in Hell.

Well that is a start.

Now if we can agree that the saints become MORE like God rather than LESS like God when they go to heaven - we will have the next step.

Given a parent with 4 children. 3 turn out to be among the MANY and 1 among the FEW of Matt 7. They love all FOUR. When they go to heaven will they cease loving 3 and ONLY love the 1???

Will they cease to love ANY OF THEM??

Or will they CONTINUE in LOVE as 1Cor 13 states for ALL of their children and CONTINUE to have the MIND OF CHRIST (1Cor 2) that WEEPS over the lost AS THEY would weep TODAY should they discover even ONE of their children to be lost?!!

I think the path is pretty easy to follow here.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Well I think Isaiah sheds more light on the subject than you do.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

 

[rc]

Good Job ... didn't think of that one Hardsheller!

 

[johnp.]

john.

 

[OCC]

"God does care for the lost... but NOT WHAT THEY DO! He weeps over WHAT THEY DO."

rc, I think you meant to say something else here. I don't think He'd weep over what they do if He didn't care what they did.

Yeah I found that site for Jonathan Edwards. I actually have a small book of the sermon "Sinners..." Kinda scary to read and I heard he actually preached it in a monotone and it still impacted people.

 

[rc]

He ALWAYS spoke in a monotone. He believe it was solely the Word of God that would impact sinners and didn't need emotional pleas or actions to incite any false emotions that could lead to false conversions based on misleading emotions.

This REALLY is explained in his book "Religious Affections" where he explains 12 signs of that ARE NOT reliable to think that you are a true Christian and 12 signs that you CAN rely on that you are a Christian.... It is a masterpiece.

You are correct on your estimation of what I was trying to explain. The character of God is to massive and complex to explain in any post. God deserves much more credit than a handful of verses to explain His glorious being.

 

[rc]

On R.C. Sproul's site (ligioneer.org) I think? ..

He has Max Mclean (famous voice for reading) do Sinners.... it is AWESOME. I bought it and copy it (sorry copyrighters) BUT I do hand it out for free and leave Cd's on park benchs, phone booths... stuff like that... I label the CD "Who's hands are you in?" ...

 

[OCC]

I will check out that work of Edwards. Thanks.

I am going to Sproul's site right now. Max Mclean does have an awesome reading voice. Hey...wanna send a copy to a park bench near me? lol That's a good idea there rc.

Once I went and stuck a tract in a porn magazine but that may not have been the best thing to do eh? I just had some zeal and thought that would shock someone.