The liberals don't want any "honestly defined problems"!
Too easy to solve when the facts are known, and that would put JJ out of a job!!
Too easy to solve when the facts are known, and that would put JJ out of a job!!
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"Racially insensitive" remarks by sports figures
- Thread starter Alcott
- Start date
Well, you can't say Tookie Williams deserves the death penalty without someone calling you a racist, but, as with your example, there are still plenty of people who objectively comprehend the comments in their respective context without calling anyone a racist.
However, that's not the point at hand. In regards to the OP, the comments weren't, imo, ourright racist, but they probably were a bit racially insensitive. It was nothing more than a poor choice of words. Nothing more than an "oops, sorry about that" is needed, and all parties should move on.
F
Filmproducer
Guest
Black friends have told me that their culture influences them to be more loose sexually.
Hogwash... Just how much do you know of black culture? Seems to me that you are basing your opinions on TV, and the the hip-hop music culture, which is not the epitome of black culture. BTW, how many "black" friends do you have? Everyone, tries to say, my black friend said this, or I know a black person who said this. I find it comical.
Hogwash... Just how much do you know of black culture? Seems to me that you are basing your opinions on TV, and the the hip-hop music culture, which is not the epitome of black culture. BTW, how many "black" friends do you have? Everyone, tries to say, my black friend said this, or I know a black person who said this. I find it comical.
Then the fault likely lies with your choice of friends, not with the race of your friends. I have several black friends who espouse no such cultural influence. </font>[/QUOTE]Maybe that's because your experience is limited.
My friend is a high-mid manager for a major US bank, a Virginia Commonwealth U grad, and one of the most sincere, honest people I have ever met.
Do you really doubt that promiscuity is a bigger problem in the black community? Do you know the illegitimacy disparity?
Here is a survey by the CDC no less on Jr HS/HS behaviors. Notice the difference amongst black kids in sexual activity. It is very significant.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/PDF/SS/SS5302.pdf
There are no benefits in denying problems regardless of who is "offended". I love people regardless of their skin color. I don't want to see failure and difficulty in the black community. I don't want to see my friends' children grow up having to overcome the stigmas evidenced by these types of statistics.
Further, articles have been written about the pressure being put on black kids. If they behave morally and responsibly, they are treated as if they have conformed to "white" society. I met the mother of a 13 year old in Illinois not long ago who poured her heart out about this very problem.
Her very intelligent daughter was being pressured into doing poorly in school and conforming to what it meant to be "black"- ie. rebellion, loose sexual attitudes, gang activity, etc.
The changes that need to be made won't be made as long as honest voices are shouted down by the PC.
I grew up in NC and have had black friends my entire life.
I was in ROTC and then the Army Reserve- serving with a significant number of black people who I respected to the man. One of the best people I have ever know was a black Vietnam vet, SFC McAfee. His civilian occupation was prison guard supervisor. He freely rendered insights into both the good side of black culture and the bad. One of the things he said almost 15 years ago still resonates. He said that the young black criminals he saw rotate repeatedly in and out of his prison should be locked up and kept. They weren't going to change and were a corrupting influence on others. Their main activities upon release were crime, recruiting new criminals, and procreation. He wasn't kidding.
My first civilian job was in SC. All but two of my employees were black. About half of them offered to throw me a going away party when I left... typically they resented the supervisors, especially if they were white. They recognized that I showed them much more respect than others and was truly interested in them and their lives.
In my last job in Georgia, all but three of my employees were black. Again, I had a much better than average relationship with them. They were open and honest with me. One very good Christian lady talked to me on this very subject. She hated that it was true but none the less said that it was. Others joked about wearing the same suit on Sunday morning that they wore out the night before to... well, women were involved.
My career has carried me to Seattle, Chicago, Atlanta, Charlotte, SC, and now Missouri. All in all, I have worked with, talked with, related to, and known black people from every corner of the country. My college friends of 20 years ago were open with me as were the people I worked with in Atlanta less than 5 years ago. Their words, attitudes, observations, and unfortunately sometimes their behavior were uniformly consistent with what I have asserted.
Now? Only a couple. I live in a very rural part of Missouri and there are almost no black people around.
During my life? I have had less than 10 people I would consider very close friends. Two of them were black.
Friends enough to talk about race and ourselves openly? That's very hard to say. More than 20 to be certain and in lesser degrees up to as many as 100.
All I can point to are my significant personal experiences and statistics. If you find them comical... no one can require you to be reasonable.
I think I noted that your husband was black. Several couples that we have been friends with were mixed. My more "Old South" dad asked me what I would do if my daughter brought a black boy home. I told him that I would find out whether he was a Christian or not and get to know him.
Point is- I have no axes to grind against black people. But if they continue to enshrine self-destructive sexual behavior into their culture... they will continue to have disproportionately high problems.
You're kidding aren't you? I live in the Los Angeles / Orange County area, one of the most racially diverse regions of the country. There's no such thing as a majority race in this region.
My black frieds are: A pastor with masters in divinity degree, a regional bank manager for B of A with a BS (i know it sound funny, but just go with it), a McDonald's franchise manager, and an IT mamanger for a local nonprofit organization.
No, that's an unfortunate demographic fact. But it's a demographic fact when compared to socio-economic data without regard to race. Since an undue number of poor are blacks, it stands to reason that they carry the burden of the disparity.
Then you would agree that it is not a person's racial culture that is the prime influencer of sexual promiscuity.
This is unfortunately true, but the object of the pressure is not promiscuity, but typically of a black kid who wants to do well in school, go to college, and/or move out of the inner city neighborhoods. I can't imagine a sinlge black mother would would be upset of her kid didn't get pregnant out of wedlock.
Believe me, there are likely as many dishonest non-PC folks who are more than happy to racially generalize in the name of not being pc.
I disagree and think that race relations are harmed and not helped by giving credibility to this level of sensitivity.
I don't think that saying black athletes are generally faster than white athletes should be considered any more offensive than saying that the "Smith kids are usually tall".
It is beyond ridiculous to derive "insensitivity" from such a completely benign statement.
You want a genuinely racist comment? Go back a few years ago to when Isaiah Thomas said that if Larry Bird were black he'd be just another good player. That was racist... and what happened to Thomas? He is now an NBA executive with authority over player personnel.
If a white had made a similar comment is there a chance he would ever get such a job?
If a white had made a similar comment is there a chance he would ever get such a job?
F
Filmproducer
Guest
Further, articles have been written about the pressure being put on black kids. If they behave morally and responsibly, they are treated as if they have conformed to "white" society. I met the mother of a 13 year old in Illinois not long ago who poured her heart out about this very problem.
Her very intelligent daughter was being pressured into doing poorly in school and conforming to what it meant to be "black"- ie. rebellion, loose sexual attitudes, gang activity, etc.
The changes that need to be made won't be made as long as honest voices are shouted down by the PC.
Again, HOGWASH... There are isolated cases, I am sure, but in no way do you understand black culture. That is evidenced by you basing your opinion on a subjective interpretation of a statistic. There are other factors, than culture, when determining sexual behavior, (i.e., socioeconomic status, religion, education, etc.). I can also tell you that black people are not considered "white" when they are intelligent. That is baloney. I have worked in inner city youth centers where education is cultivated and encouraged. There are many esteemed and educated Black Americans, who are looked up to in the black community. Cornell West, is one such example. As far gang activity is concerned, again there are many who have devoted their lives to combat this problem. Gangs are not the epitome of black culture, either. To even allude to that is proving you are uniformed, at best, of the reality of black culture. I live within the black community. My husband is black, and educated, so is his family. Everyone has a Ph.D., from various institutions, except his younger sister, and brother, who is an officer in the Marines. My children are black, because their father is black. Again, how much do you really know of the black community or black culture? I, by no means, know everything, but I make it a point to learn, as it is now my culture. Again, the black culture is not limited to how black people are portrayed on TV, or the hip-hop/rap community. No one is arguing that honest voices need to be shot down, but a voice is not "honest", when they are misrepresenting something they know NOTHING about. Try learning about black culture, instead of finding bits and pieces of ammo to try and justify your preconceived notions. Your argument is quite weak.
Her very intelligent daughter was being pressured into doing poorly in school and conforming to what it meant to be "black"- ie. rebellion, loose sexual attitudes, gang activity, etc.
The changes that need to be made won't be made as long as honest voices are shouted down by the PC.
Again, HOGWASH... There are isolated cases, I am sure, but in no way do you understand black culture. That is evidenced by you basing your opinion on a subjective interpretation of a statistic. There are other factors, than culture, when determining sexual behavior, (i.e., socioeconomic status, religion, education, etc.). I can also tell you that black people are not considered "white" when they are intelligent. That is baloney. I have worked in inner city youth centers where education is cultivated and encouraged. There are many esteemed and educated Black Americans, who are looked up to in the black community. Cornell West, is one such example. As far gang activity is concerned, again there are many who have devoted their lives to combat this problem. Gangs are not the epitome of black culture, either. To even allude to that is proving you are uniformed, at best, of the reality of black culture. I live within the black community. My husband is black, and educated, so is his family. Everyone has a Ph.D., from various institutions, except his younger sister, and brother, who is an officer in the Marines. My children are black, because their father is black. Again, how much do you really know of the black community or black culture? I, by no means, know everything, but I make it a point to learn, as it is now my culture. Again, the black culture is not limited to how black people are portrayed on TV, or the hip-hop/rap community. No one is arguing that honest voices need to be shot down, but a voice is not "honest", when they are misrepresenting something they know NOTHING about. Try learning about black culture, instead of finding bits and pieces of ammo to try and justify your preconceived notions. Your argument is quite weak.
F
Filmproducer
Guest
no one can require you to be reasonable.
Ah, yes, of course I am not reasonable. I only like to look to all the facts. Again, you made an untrue assumption about black culture, which you cannot back up with evidence. Have you ever attended a "black" church? Why on earth would they pressure young woman to be loose morally? That is ridiculous. Black woman are no more pressured, by their culture, to act immorally than are white woman. Again it is not an issue of culture, but other factors. As far as the club argument is concerned, the last time I checked clubbing is not limited to the black community, it transcends all races.
Ah, yes, of course I am not reasonable. I only like to look to all the facts. Again, you made an untrue assumption about black culture, which you cannot back up with evidence. Have you ever attended a "black" church? Why on earth would they pressure young woman to be loose morally? That is ridiculous. Black woman are no more pressured, by their culture, to act immorally than are white woman. Again it is not an issue of culture, but other factors. As far as the club argument is concerned, the last time I checked clubbing is not limited to the black community, it transcends all races.
You're kidding aren't you? I live in the Los Angeles / Orange County area, one of the most racially diverse regions of the country. There's no such thing as a majority race in this region.</font>[/QUOTE] Absolutely not. California is not indicative of the whole country.
On the whole, Seattle had less racial antagonism than Chicago or Atlanta.
My black frieds are: A pastor with masters in divinity degree, a regional bank manager for B of A with a BS (i know it sound funny, but just go with it), a McDonald's franchise manager, and an IT mamanger for a local nonprofit organization.</font>[/QUOTE] All in California? My opinions have been derived by talking to black people from the south, northeast, midwest, and west coast... rural, suburban, and city.
No, that's an unfortunate demographic fact. But it's a demographic fact when compared to socio-economic data without regard to race. Since an undue number of poor are blacks, it stands to reason that they carry the burden of the disparity.</font>[/QUOTE] Being poor does not by necessity make you immoral.
I grew up in the southern Appalachians. My mother's family would have been considered dirt poor by any standard you apply to the black community now... and they were very moral.
Then you would agree that it is not a person's racial culture that is the prime influencer of sexual promiscuity.</font>[/QUOTE] You can't ignore the correlation between one's cultural influences and standards and behavior John. I don't think I said "the prime". But it is "a prime influencer". Our society as a whole has decayed in sexual mores since the 60's.
According to CDC data as cited here http://www.isteve.com/2003_Black_Illegitimacy_Rate_Declines.htm:
In the early 1960's (when the last lib I had respect for, Moynihan, wrote "The Negro Family: The Case for National Action"), the illegitimacy amongst blacks was an alarming about 22% with whites less than 5% (the article says 1.9%). Now, black illegitimacy rates are at around 70% with whites around 22%.
You can argue that sexual promiscuity was a result while I will contend that it has been a cause for the disproportionate problems of crime and poverty in the black community... However we should be able to agree that the continuance of this behavior will destroy the lives of people we care about either directly or indirectly.
Believe me, there are likely as many dishonest non-PC folks who are more than happy to racially generalize in the name of not being pc. </font>[/QUOTE]The statistics do generalize but they are stark... and made up of individual tragedies. What I have learned from the various people I have known gives me what I believe is insight into some of the causes for the statistics. It begins with "black culture" as a distinct American subculture.
See my last post to John. It cites statistics that cannot be denied. The rate of black illegitimacy is higher than the poverty rate. Further, the difference in black and white illegitimacy is greater than the difference in their poverty rates.
I also cited a recent study of student behavior that shows that black kids start earlier and in greater numbers than their white counter-parts.
BTW, What "facts" or "evidence" have you cited.
No. I have attended churches with black members however.
It is also not what I said. The black churches may or may not have that kind of influence. They may or may not be a strong enough influence in the other direction.
The testimonies of some people who have faithfully attended black churches indicates that they don't take a strong enough stand and often wink at sexual sin... but I haven't made this as a general assertion.
Not true according to the statistics I cited nor the testimonies of people I have known over the past 30 years.
It is a moral issue and morals are directly related to culture. Poor people are not necessarily more immoral than wealthy people.
For instance, most Americans in 1960 would be "poor" by today's standard... yet they were much more moral. Blacks as a subgroup were much more oppressed and generally even poorer than now... but much more moral. There is no invioble link between poverty and sexual immorality.
What club comment?
Agreed. Here, os SOCAL, race is (with esxceptions) much less of an issue than in many parts of the country.
My broher lives is Seattle, and he'd hardly call Seattle diverse.
You cited one individual with one opinion. Now, all of a sudden, you're a gallup poll.
But you practically imply that being black does.
I neither ignore them, nor do I make them a scapegoat for society's woes.
Only a sociologist would be capoable of determining if it is a beginning or a result. I don't pretent to know either way, to be honest. But I acknowlege that either is possible.
F
Filmproducer
Guest
It begins with "black culture" as a distinct American subculture.
Please define "black culture". This is a highly subjective term and really does not relate to reality. Is there a distinct "white culture"? Many would argue that the white population is too large and diverse to be a culture unto its own. The same is true for the black community. Black Americans may only be 13% of the American population, but they are still as different and diverse as the white community. I find it amusing that you seem to imply that the white population is morally "better" than the black community. As I stated earlier, a black woman is no more pressured by some supposed "black culture", than a white woman is pressured by a "white culture". I suggest that you read some of the work by Kwame Anthony Appiah, a professor of Afro-American studies and philosophy at Harvard. In one of his essays, he aptly pointed out that "there is no reason to believe that race, in se, is morally relevant, and also no reason to suppose that races are like families in providing a sphere of ethical life that legitimately escapes the demand of a universalizing morality".(*)
Not true according to the statistics I cited nor the testimonies of people I have known over the past 30 years.
Once again, the statistics, you presented, did not prove that black woman are pressured by a supposed "black culture". Statistics can be interpreted in multiple ways. Did you even stop to research and consider the fact that between 1980 and 1990 the illegitimate birth rate for white women rose nearly 100%, while the illegitimate birth rate for black women rose only by 12%?(**) This trend is still on the rise among white women. The disparity is still there, and no one is denying that, but are we to believe that this "black culture" in terms of morality is also affecting white women now?
It is a moral issue and morals are directly related to culture.
Are you serious? Morals are not directly related to culture. Morals are directly related to ones familial sphere and social upbringing to some extent. Would you be singing the same tune about a white culture and morals? I seriously doubt it.
What club comment?
The testimonies of some people who have faithfully attended black churches indicates that they don't take a strong enough stand and often wink at sexual sin.
Yet you have never personally attended a black church. I have visited many a church, both "black" and "white", and everything in between. I have never ever seen any type of church take a weak stance in regard to sexual sin, nor "wink" at it. I am going to direct you to one of the largest black churches, TD Jakes The Potter's House. Their youth program, for example, prides itself on upholding the moral virtue of teen girls. The program is called "The Kings Daughters". They also have a separate program for teen mothers called "Michael's Angels". I gave this example because it is a large majority black church, (28,000 families with a racial breakdown of 77% African-American, 13% Caucasian, 7% Hispanic, and 3% Other – comprised of 17 different nationalities). (***) I can guarantee that other black churches also take a strong stance against sexual immorality. If you have black friends in black churches that don't, then they need to find a new church.
I also cited a recent study of student behavior that shows that black kids start earlier and in greater numbers than their white counter-parts.
Yes, and I can state studies that show that white teens are more likely to have an abortion than black teens, although overall more black women have abortions. Again it is not a question of a suspect moral culture. I can also cite studies that have shown that sexually promiscuous black teens are more sexually responsible that sexually promiscuous white teens. Studies and statistics are subjective with multiple interpretations. You have not proven anything.
meant to be "black"- ie. rebellion, loose sexual attitudes, gang activity, etc.
I am returning to this comment because I find an interesting correlation in these terms you have used to describe what it "means to be black" and multiple studies of social perceptions and racial attitudes. Studies have proven that it is white people who define what it means to be black in these terms, not black people. I seriously doubt you have met any black person who would describe "blackness" in this way. I invite you to look into the research of Dr. Martin Gilens, Donald Kinder and David Sears, and Kulinski, to name a few, I am sure you will be enlightened.
(*) Kwame Anthony Appiah, "Racisms", in David Theo Goldberg, ed., Anatomy of racism, 1990. "In this essay, Appiah challenges us to think about the very category of race and the corollary term racism. He distinguishes the concept of "racialism" from "racism", and then identifies several types of racism. He helps to think clearly and critically about the often unnoticed presuppositions that undergird our use of the terms race and racism."
(**) National Center for Health statistics, Advance Report of Final Nationality Statistics, 1990, Vol.42, No.3
(***) http://www.thepottershouse.org The Potters House website
Please define "black culture". This is a highly subjective term and really does not relate to reality. Is there a distinct "white culture"? Many would argue that the white population is too large and diverse to be a culture unto its own. The same is true for the black community. Black Americans may only be 13% of the American population, but they are still as different and diverse as the white community. I find it amusing that you seem to imply that the white population is morally "better" than the black community. As I stated earlier, a black woman is no more pressured by some supposed "black culture", than a white woman is pressured by a "white culture". I suggest that you read some of the work by Kwame Anthony Appiah, a professor of Afro-American studies and philosophy at Harvard. In one of his essays, he aptly pointed out that "there is no reason to believe that race, in se, is morally relevant, and also no reason to suppose that races are like families in providing a sphere of ethical life that legitimately escapes the demand of a universalizing morality".(*)
Not true according to the statistics I cited nor the testimonies of people I have known over the past 30 years.
Once again, the statistics, you presented, did not prove that black woman are pressured by a supposed "black culture". Statistics can be interpreted in multiple ways. Did you even stop to research and consider the fact that between 1980 and 1990 the illegitimate birth rate for white women rose nearly 100%, while the illegitimate birth rate for black women rose only by 12%?(**) This trend is still on the rise among white women. The disparity is still there, and no one is denying that, but are we to believe that this "black culture" in terms of morality is also affecting white women now?
It is a moral issue and morals are directly related to culture.
Are you serious? Morals are not directly related to culture. Morals are directly related to ones familial sphere and social upbringing to some extent. Would you be singing the same tune about a white culture and morals? I seriously doubt it.
What club comment?
I assumed club, because I have heard others make this same argument. Still does not hold water, because the same can be said for white men, or white women, for that matter. It is more of a subset American culture, than any type of racial culture.
The testimonies of some people who have faithfully attended black churches indicates that they don't take a strong enough stand and often wink at sexual sin.
Yet you have never personally attended a black church. I have visited many a church, both "black" and "white", and everything in between. I have never ever seen any type of church take a weak stance in regard to sexual sin, nor "wink" at it. I am going to direct you to one of the largest black churches, TD Jakes The Potter's House. Their youth program, for example, prides itself on upholding the moral virtue of teen girls. The program is called "The Kings Daughters". They also have a separate program for teen mothers called "Michael's Angels". I gave this example because it is a large majority black church, (28,000 families with a racial breakdown of 77% African-American, 13% Caucasian, 7% Hispanic, and 3% Other – comprised of 17 different nationalities). (***) I can guarantee that other black churches also take a strong stance against sexual immorality. If you have black friends in black churches that don't, then they need to find a new church.
I also cited a recent study of student behavior that shows that black kids start earlier and in greater numbers than their white counter-parts.
Yes, and I can state studies that show that white teens are more likely to have an abortion than black teens, although overall more black women have abortions. Again it is not a question of a suspect moral culture. I can also cite studies that have shown that sexually promiscuous black teens are more sexually responsible that sexually promiscuous white teens. Studies and statistics are subjective with multiple interpretations. You have not proven anything.
meant to be "black"- ie. rebellion, loose sexual attitudes, gang activity, etc.
I am returning to this comment because I find an interesting correlation in these terms you have used to describe what it "means to be black" and multiple studies of social perceptions and racial attitudes. Studies have proven that it is white people who define what it means to be black in these terms, not black people. I seriously doubt you have met any black person who would describe "blackness" in this way. I invite you to look into the research of Dr. Martin Gilens, Donald Kinder and David Sears, and Kulinski, to name a few, I am sure you will be enlightened.
(*) Kwame Anthony Appiah, "Racisms", in David Theo Goldberg, ed., Anatomy of racism, 1990. "In this essay, Appiah challenges us to think about the very category of race and the corollary term racism. He distinguishes the concept of "racialism" from "racism", and then identifies several types of racism. He helps to think clearly and critically about the often unnoticed presuppositions that undergird our use of the terms race and racism."
(**) National Center for Health statistics, Advance Report of Final Nationality Statistics, 1990, Vol.42, No.3
(***) http://www.thepottershouse.org The Potters House website
My broher lives is Seattle, and he'd hardly call Seattle diverse.</font>[/QUOTE] It is but not with blacks. There are many asians and a sizeable hispanic community.
My comment was not about scale but about the relations between whites and blacks.
You cited one individual with one opinion. Now, all of a sudden, you're a gallup poll.</font>[/QUOTE] Actually, I cited two polls that are very consistent with my point of view derived from a "diverse" geographical background.
But you practically imply that being black does.</font>[/QUOTE] Nope. But there are elements in the black American sub-culture that more greatly influence them to this particular type of morality than the general population. I have even heard black men excuse it by saying it is in their nature to be more of a "dog" than other races.
That isn't my opinion. It was theirs. Further, one of the black supervisors I worked with explicitly called his womanizing a "black thang"... and he was a faithful attendee of a black Baptist church.
I neither ignore them, nor do I make them a scapegoat for society's woes.</font>[/QUOTE] Nor have I. The statistics show that the sexual revolution of the 60's and 70's did great damage to our social mores across the board.
But you can't simply say that black culture has no significant bearing on the fact that black illegitimacy has increased from 22% to 70% in about one standard generation while white illegitimacy has only grown from 5% to 22%.
Economics simply isn't the answer. Those living under the "poverty line" are richer in true wealth and lifestyle than the average American in 1960... and the average "non-poor" person world wide. So while the so-called percentage of blacks living under the poverty line hasn't moved much... real wealth has. Even worse, there is less discrimination and more opportunity for blacks now than any time in our history.
Being poor is circumstantial. Being moral is a decision. If someone is not behaving morally, the questions are what impact is it having and why is it so? People are influenced by the culture around them. Blacks and whites are influenced by the larger "American" culture. Regionally, people are influenced by their cultures... I can assure you that rural Missouri is culturally distinct from LA.
Blacks do have and even claim a distinctive culture in America. It is commendable in many ways, benign in some ways, and detrimental in other ways.
Only a sociologist would be capoable of determining if it is a beginning or a result. </font>[/QUOTE]Ultimately, yes... maybe.
But practically... in the here and now... young black people especially are at higher risk of failure than the larger society and while I am sure it feels good to blame the larger society or whites in particular those risks will not drop until behaviors change... and one of those behaviors is sexuality.
I am totally amazed at the venom that flows when ANY dispersions (actual or imagined) are aimed at blacks!
Words are twisted, comments altered, asumptions made, etc, etc.
One would think this board was a training tool for future liberal journalists.
The point that an earlier poster makes that problems are never going to be resolved if they cannot be faced squarely and openly certainly holds true.
Seems that many here would rather debate the ways facts are obtained and stated than admit to the facts and try to solve the problem.
Guess that's just the legacy of PCness, and the "keep 'em on the plantation mentality" of the democrats and Jesse Jacksons of this world!
Words are twisted, comments altered, asumptions made, etc, etc.
One would think this board was a training tool for future liberal journalists.
The point that an earlier poster makes that problems are never going to be resolved if they cannot be faced squarely and openly certainly holds true.
Seems that many here would rather debate the ways facts are obtained and stated than admit to the facts and try to solve the problem.
Guess that's just the legacy of PCness, and the "keep 'em on the plantation mentality" of the democrats and Jesse Jacksons of this world!
Then I guess liberal academics that talk about the "black experience in America" are off base? Sociologists have defined black culture in America and its influences... you aren't seriously arguing that those distinctions do not exist are you?
Black culture is part of the American culture. In the black sub-culture, there are further divisions just as there are within white culture. Sometimes the lines overlap and regional influences are more important than the racial distinctions. For instance, I found that we had more in common with our southern black friends in Seattle and Chicago than we did with most of the white people we knew from those areas.
Yes and no. Prior to the immigration explosion around the turn of the 20th century, the diversity was much less. Most were protestant and from Britain or western Europe.
Again, yes and no. Most black people in America are descendents of southern slaves. They share common cultural traits in the same way as southern whites do... but you will see regional distinctions.
I used to even be able to tell the difference between the southern accent of someone from the mountains where I grew up and the coastal plains of NC. A good friend of mine who happened to be black joined the army after HS. He told me that another black guy from NC was able to discern that he was from the mountains by the way he talked.
Notably I didn't say that white individuals are more moral than black individuals nor did I say that it was anything innate in black people.
In fact, a part of my contention is that it is cultural influences distinctive to the black community that contribute to the disparity... and NOT some kind of inherited flaw as many white and black racists try to argue. But the statistics speak for themselves.
That contradicts the statistics here: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/PDF/SS/SS5302.pdf (note the analysis on pp 17-20 as well as the testimonies of every black person that has discussed the issue with me over the past 30 years.
How do you account for the statistics? What is causing black kids to engage in sex at a rate of 19% before 13 while white kids are at 4%? The main influences on a kid up until 12 are his family and the culture around him/her.
Agreed.
Again, race itself is benign. Cultural influences are not.
Actually, the statistics simply say that blacks are more sexually active and earlier. They also say that black kids are more likely to be forced to have sex than white kids.
Yes... and it has everything to do with cultural moral decay.
No. There is a shift going on among the attitudes of young white people that have only a indirect link to "black culture".
Precisely. Who are the first people to socialize a child into a culture? The parents- then the community around them.
Yes and I do. I didn't say there was nothing wrong with "white culture(s)"... but those problems are no reason to excuse or ignore a much worse problem in the black community.
The rates in both races are destructive to the society at large and to individuals.
Statistically, black kids who grow up in a stable home with a mother and father have similar success rates as their white counterparts.
This is a biblically answered problem. If sexual depravity and promiscuity are prevalent- a society or group cannot succeed.
I assumed club, because I have heard others make this same argument. Still does not hold water, because the same can be said for white men, or white women, for that matter. It is more of a subset American culture, than any type of racial culture.</font>[/QUOTE] I have never heard a white person say it of themselves or other whites... could happen but I have never heard it. Black men I have known acted as if it were commonplace... especially among black Baptists.
The testimonies of some people who have faithfully attended black churches indicates that they don't take a strong enough stand and often wink at sexual sin.
Your "visits" are a better basis for establishing a rule than the testimonies of the people I have known?
I agree. I don't agree with Jakes on every point of doctrine but this is exactly what is needed if 70% illegitimacy or 22% as the case may be is going to decline.
I would argue that Jakes and churches like his are doing more than the civil rights establishment or their liberal ideas to save the black community. There are others and I never denied that they exist. But we can't ignore the general scope of the problem.
Actually that is no longer true.
"Race - 63% of abortion patients are white, however, black women are more than 3 times as likely to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are 2.5 times as likely." Source:http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm
That would be interesting. One would have to redefine "responsible" to show that a 70% illegitimacy rate is better than 22%.
IOW's, I have not proven anything you wanted to hear.
Then this black mother I spoke with was actually white?
So if I don't agree with you I must be lying?
So basically you are asking to look at studies that will show that this problem and connected problems are illusions? They don't really exist and to the extent they do exist, it is the fault of white people and not the people making the choices as well as those who have direct influence on them?
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No. There is a shift going on among the attitudes of young white people that have only a indirect link to "black culture".
Hmmm. yet you have made the claim that white people are not morally "better". If the increase is due to some supposed indirect influence of the "black culture" then you are contradicting your other claim. Which is it? The difference is that it is neither black nor white culture that is the influence of these trends. It is specifically the moral decay in society in general which attribute to these trends. The sooner we realize this, is the sooner we, society as a whole, can work to change the problem.
Then I guess liberal academics that talk about the "black experience in America" are off base? Sociologists have defined black culture in America and its influences... you aren't seriously arguing that those distinctions do not exist are you?
You're kidding, right? First of all, I never claimed that there is not a "black culture". I claimed that your definition of black culture is incorrect. Secondly, the "black experience in America", is certainly not defined by the characteristics of "rebellion, loose sexual morals, and gang activity, etc.", as you are so quick to define it. I find it interesting that you are using the words of these so-called liberal academics completely out of context. There are many black authors, who talk about the black experience in America and have never defined it in any context close to your definition. Who is more correct? The actual black authors, who actually have personal knowledge of the black experience in America, or you? Natasha Tarpley, a Harvard graduate and black author, has a lot of wonderful essays on "black culture" and the "black experience in America". I encourage you to read some of her work. Her essay, "Testimony", gives a very succinct example of what it means to be black in America. Cornel West, is another example of someone who can give a succinct definition of what it means to be black in America. I can give you several more authors, such as Kwame Appiah, James Baldwin, Henry Louis Gates, or Harriet Brent Jacobs, if your interested. I mean, seriously, how many black authors have you read? I mean you are qualifying a culture of approximately 38 million people, based on your limited knowledge, of what, 20-100 people at best?
Most black people in America are descendents of southern slaves.
See, this is not necessarily true. America has large populations of Jamaicans, Haitians, Trinidad and Tobegans, South African, and Nigerian, to name a few. It really depends on where you live. You qualify a "hazy" standard of white culture by saying, "Prior to the immigration explosion around the turn of the 20th century, the diversity was much less", yet you do not even account for the LARGE POPULATIONS of Black Americans, who ARE NOT descendants of slaves. The Black population in America is much more diverse than you realize.
In fact, a part of my contention is that it is cultural influences distinctive to the black community that contribute to the disparity...
The thing is there are not, cultural influences that are distinctive to black culture, that are not also present in white culture. You will be hard pressed to name them. People are so concerned with labeling black, white, or other, that they totally miss the correlations within their own "race". I asked you to define "black culture" for me, but you did not. You became defensive and implied that I was saying there was no black culture, when I never asserted there wasn't. Culture is a relative term. You cite statistics and then use said statistics to justify your definition of black culture. You did not take into account regional demographics, socioeconomic status, religion, education, etc. All of these things play a distinctive role in interpreting these statistics, and you cannot pinpoint the disparity in numbers on a supposed undefined black culture and ignore all the other factors. See, you assume, since I disagree with your definition of black culture, that I am ignoring the problem. I am not. I will readily admit, there is a problem. It is not a matter of culture, there are more pressing issues that contribute to these statistics. Look at the regional demographics involved. Can you agree that there are certain areas where the illegitimate birth rate is higher for both white and black women? The disparity still exists, but in these areas there are more illegitimate births than other areas. Is this due to the black culture, or could it be due to regional demographics, socioeconomic status, and education? These are more relevant than an ill-defined cultural influence, imo.
Hmmm. yet you have made the claim that white people are not morally "better". If the increase is due to some supposed indirect influence of the "black culture" then you are contradicting your other claim. Which is it? The difference is that it is neither black nor white culture that is the influence of these trends. It is specifically the moral decay in society in general which attribute to these trends. The sooner we realize this, is the sooner we, society as a whole, can work to change the problem.
Then I guess liberal academics that talk about the "black experience in America" are off base? Sociologists have defined black culture in America and its influences... you aren't seriously arguing that those distinctions do not exist are you?
You're kidding, right? First of all, I never claimed that there is not a "black culture". I claimed that your definition of black culture is incorrect. Secondly, the "black experience in America", is certainly not defined by the characteristics of "rebellion, loose sexual morals, and gang activity, etc.", as you are so quick to define it. I find it interesting that you are using the words of these so-called liberal academics completely out of context. There are many black authors, who talk about the black experience in America and have never defined it in any context close to your definition. Who is more correct? The actual black authors, who actually have personal knowledge of the black experience in America, or you? Natasha Tarpley, a Harvard graduate and black author, has a lot of wonderful essays on "black culture" and the "black experience in America". I encourage you to read some of her work. Her essay, "Testimony", gives a very succinct example of what it means to be black in America. Cornel West, is another example of someone who can give a succinct definition of what it means to be black in America. I can give you several more authors, such as Kwame Appiah, James Baldwin, Henry Louis Gates, or Harriet Brent Jacobs, if your interested. I mean, seriously, how many black authors have you read? I mean you are qualifying a culture of approximately 38 million people, based on your limited knowledge, of what, 20-100 people at best?
Most black people in America are descendents of southern slaves.
See, this is not necessarily true. America has large populations of Jamaicans, Haitians, Trinidad and Tobegans, South African, and Nigerian, to name a few. It really depends on where you live. You qualify a "hazy" standard of white culture by saying, "Prior to the immigration explosion around the turn of the 20th century, the diversity was much less", yet you do not even account for the LARGE POPULATIONS of Black Americans, who ARE NOT descendants of slaves. The Black population in America is much more diverse than you realize.
In fact, a part of my contention is that it is cultural influences distinctive to the black community that contribute to the disparity...
The thing is there are not, cultural influences that are distinctive to black culture, that are not also present in white culture. You will be hard pressed to name them. People are so concerned with labeling black, white, or other, that they totally miss the correlations within their own "race". I asked you to define "black culture" for me, but you did not. You became defensive and implied that I was saying there was no black culture, when I never asserted there wasn't. Culture is a relative term. You cite statistics and then use said statistics to justify your definition of black culture. You did not take into account regional demographics, socioeconomic status, religion, education, etc. All of these things play a distinctive role in interpreting these statistics, and you cannot pinpoint the disparity in numbers on a supposed undefined black culture and ignore all the other factors. See, you assume, since I disagree with your definition of black culture, that I am ignoring the problem. I am not. I will readily admit, there is a problem. It is not a matter of culture, there are more pressing issues that contribute to these statistics. Look at the regional demographics involved. Can you agree that there are certain areas where the illegitimate birth rate is higher for both white and black women? The disparity still exists, but in these areas there are more illegitimate births than other areas. Is this due to the black culture, or could it be due to regional demographics, socioeconomic status, and education? These are more relevant than an ill-defined cultural influence, imo.