Thank God you have no say-so in the way American society operates. You are clearly lost.
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Racism and sins of the past
- Thread starter JonC
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I think that we are talking about two different things here with MLK.
Was Martin Luther King Jr. a Christian? No, of course not. He rejected the virgin birth, the Second coming of Christ, the divinity of Christ and a "supernatural plan of salvation".
Was he qualified to be a preacher/ pastor otherwise? No, of course not. He was an immoral person who was biblically disqualified to be an elder/ pastor/ preacher.
But we have leaders in our nation who are known not to be Christian yet still contributed in a positive way to our nation (Thomas Jefferson, for example, was not a Christian for the same reasons that Martin Luther King Jr. was not a Christian).
Martin Luther King Jr. was not concerned with Christ but with social justice, and his legacy is in the realm of Civil Rights. His arguments (like Jefferson's views) were often framed within Christian values because the world - at that time - shared those values and considered themselves at least nominally Christian. Like with Jefferson, MLK rejected the supernatural events of Scripture but recognized the value in moral aspects of our faith.
"[A] supernatural plan of salvation, the Trinity, the substitutionary theory of the atonement, and the second coming of Christ are all quite prominent in fundamentalist thinking. Such are the views of the fundamentalist and they reveal that he is oppose[d] to theological adaption to social and cultural change. … Amid change all around he is willing to preserve certain ancient ideas even though they are contrary to science". - Martin Luther King Jr. (@ Crozer Theological Seminary).
"I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again, of so much ignorance, of so much absurdity, so much untruth and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I therefore, separate the gold from the dross, I restore to him the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some and the roguery of others of his disciples." - Thomas Jefferson
My point is that Martin Luther King Jr. was not a Christian leader. He was a Civil Rights' Leader and his leadership contributed greatly to combat social injustice in our nation.
Was Martin Luther King Jr. a Christian? No, of course not. He rejected the virgin birth, the Second coming of Christ, the divinity of Christ and a "supernatural plan of salvation".
Was he qualified to be a preacher/ pastor otherwise? No, of course not. He was an immoral person who was biblically disqualified to be an elder/ pastor/ preacher.
But we have leaders in our nation who are known not to be Christian yet still contributed in a positive way to our nation (Thomas Jefferson, for example, was not a Christian for the same reasons that Martin Luther King Jr. was not a Christian).
Martin Luther King Jr. was not concerned with Christ but with social justice, and his legacy is in the realm of Civil Rights. His arguments (like Jefferson's views) were often framed within Christian values because the world - at that time - shared those values and considered themselves at least nominally Christian. Like with Jefferson, MLK rejected the supernatural events of Scripture but recognized the value in moral aspects of our faith.
"[A] supernatural plan of salvation, the Trinity, the substitutionary theory of the atonement, and the second coming of Christ are all quite prominent in fundamentalist thinking. Such are the views of the fundamentalist and they reveal that he is oppose[d] to theological adaption to social and cultural change. … Amid change all around he is willing to preserve certain ancient ideas even though they are contrary to science". - Martin Luther King Jr. (@ Crozer Theological Seminary).
"I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again, of so much ignorance, of so much absurdity, so much untruth and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I therefore, separate the gold from the dross, I restore to him the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some and the roguery of others of his disciples." - Thomas Jefferson
My point is that Martin Luther King Jr. was not a Christian leader. He was a Civil Rights' Leader and his leadership contributed greatly to combat social injustice in our nation.
What?!? Thank God your definition of what a Christian should be isn't God's definition.
No more than the racist pastors/preachers within the evangelical and fundamentalist sect.
At least you admit that America is not and never was a Christian nation.
Of course Republicans won't agree...they don't believe in social justice or injustice.
You are wrong here.
My definition of a Christian is simple. It is faith in the bodily resurrection of Christ (which includes the Incarnation, death, burial of Christ). This is what Paul wrote - a denial of the bodily resurrection is a denial of the Christian faith.
Viewing the "resurrection" to mean a continuation of the ideals taught by Christ and the "second coming" to be man's acceptance of the same spirit is not Christianity.
How can you argue that Martin Luther King Jr. is a Christian when he did not believe that Jesus is God, did not believe that Jesus rose bodily, and did not believe that Jesus would come again (physically)?
I know this thread is winding down, and I plan on starting another to discuss some of this. I understand that MLK was a great man who accomplished a lot in the realm of Civil rights. But how can we call him a "Christian"? That is what I do not get.
I agree that racist pastors are disqualified from being pastors as well. One must have a good reputation (above reproof) and Scripture goes to moral issues. MLK had a good reputation as a Civil Rights leader, but not as a man.
Exactly...YOUR definition.
This is inaccurate. If you ever read a King paper in its ENTIRETY, you wouldn't find any say he denied that Jesus was the Son of God...there are other "orthodox" views he had problems accepting but that wasn't one of them.
Conservative Christianity does not have a monopoly on correct Christian theology.
So what's preventing your colleagues from seeing that?
Agreed.
But it is my definition only because it is God's definition as stated (not "taught/ implied") but stated in the text of Scripture. Paul stated that if Christ did not rise bodily then our faith is in vain - that our faith is founded in the Resurrection (something MLK attributed to a mythological outward expression of an inner truth - that the early church was not scientific and could only relate the magnetic personality of Christ to the biological).
I do not know what "colleagues" you mean.
I have read several MLK papers in full. He is a personal hero of mine - just not a Christian hero. And MLK has written that the only reason orthodox Christian belief affirms the Resurrection is that was the only way that the early church knew to express it's belief.
I appreciate the contributions of Mahatma Gandhi. But that does not make him a Christian. I like the works of Kahlil Gibran (even more than the writings of MLK). But his beliefs as expressed in his works also separate his writings from Christianity (even though his views are mixed with Christianity).
MLK spoke of the divinity of Christ (redefining "divinity" to mean "not God" but at one with God and man). He spoke of the second coming of Christ (not physically but in spirit when men accept that spirit that was in Christ). He spoke of the Resurrection (not as Christ raising from the grave but as the early church's attempt at expressing through an "outward" mythology those "inner" truths that live on).
Quite simply, Martin Luther King Jr. did not meet God's definition of what it is to be a Christian. That does not detract from his contributions or for his love of men.
THAT SAID - perhaps I was reading earlier writings and his belief changed. If you have a writing where MLK looks to Christ's bodily resurrection and our hope in a physical second coming of Christ then please, by all means, provide a reference. As I said, he's someone I've admired for his accomplishments and would love to read as a brother rather than worldly leader.
No...you mean implied. And the debate then depends on one's view of the inspiration of scripture.
The ones on this board.
But Christ's divinity is rooted in his oneness with God. This is explicitly stated in the Nicene Creed.
There are quite a few Protestants who believe this, citing scripture doesn't deny this as a possible meaning.
Do you have a paper with him explicitly denying the possibility of a second coming of Christ??
Do I have a paper of MLK denying the Second Coming? I do not have any of his papers. But there are at least two papers and one sermon where MLK denies a physical Second Coming of Christ. And denies the bodily resurrection of Christ.
The Papers of Martin Luther King, Jr., Volume I
MLK attributed the supernatural aspects of the gospel as outward expressions of inward truths unexpressable in the first century mindset. Read of his view of tge Resurrection if you doubt this (of the disciples Hebrew traditions combined with Paul's Greek philosophy).
Have you found any MLK writings to the contrary?
Here is an excellent resource:
The Martin Luther King, Jr., Research and Education Institute
Have you considered you may be like those White men of whom you complain - clinging to monuments and flags in the face of reality?
It seems you may be holding on to your own version of "Dixie".
According to how the Bible defines it, would MLK had even been saved then, if what you stated here was what he held with and believed?
No. MLK was not a Christian. But he was not a Christian leader (even as a pastor). He was always an advocate for social justice and the dignity of men (as human beings).
I do see him as being used by the Lord though to be heading up a movement that addressed real sin issues in this nation!
I agree. I see God using others who were not Christians as well (like Gandhi).
Even Trump as much as many railed on him as president!
We have many ideas MLK's writings that deny Christianity.
But I do not know where the man ended up. Did he embrace the faith? Or did he maintain the position he held @ Crozer?
That, @robustheologian , is what I am asking. Do you know of any writings where MLK affirms the bodily resurrection and divinity of Christ? There are several to the contrary but they were during his seminary days (perhaps one sermon from Dexter as well). But I do not know if he changed his religious views.
But I do not know where the man ended up. Did he embrace the faith? Or did he maintain the position he held @ Crozer?
That, @robustheologian , is what I am asking. Do you know of any writings where MLK affirms the bodily resurrection and divinity of Christ? There are several to the contrary but they were during his seminary days (perhaps one sermon from Dexter as well). But I do not know if he changed his religious views.
This is closed
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