No, I am not saying it is wrong. I am saying my inclination is that it ought to be a corporate practice, not an individual one. Two key words are "my" (meaning it is my view, not one I am forcing on others) and "inclination" meaning I am inclined that way, but am not completely convinced. Having read this thread, I have seen no biblical reason to change my inclination. But I did not say it was wrong for individuals to raise their hands.
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Raising Hands in Worship
- Thread starter christianyouth
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Brother Bob
New Member
You miss the point, they don't raise their hands because someone else is raising theirs. They are raising their hands because of the feeling in their heart towards God.
According to what you are saying here, in order to join church, you would have to meet in a closet. I don't think you are against it that much. You seem to just want "complete" agreement with you. Give a little, it won't hurt.
I am not sure why you think I missed that point. I understand that point, and it is the basis of my question. What warrant is there for individualism in corporate worship?
Nope, not saying that at all. I am not the one who quoted the verse. The verse you quoted, incidentally, has to do with doing things for show. I didn't quote that verse in support. Someone else did.
Somehow, you rightly understood this, but unfortunately made two previous comments that completely miss the point of my question.
Nope, not at all. I don't care what you do or anyone else does. If you come to my church and make a scene and draw attention to yourself, I will care. But I don't care whether or not you agree with me. I am not even sure what I believe so I don't know if you agree with me or not. As I said, I am unconvinced on the propriety of individual raising of hands in worship. I am not saying it is wrong. I am unconvinced.
Not worried about that.
windcatcher
New Member
I think, Pastor Larry, you would agree that in cooperate worship there are many aspects of individual service which contributes to the worship. You have the choir, when the congregation is just an audience........ unless the words being sung reach inside them some way. You have the ushers which assist people in finding seats, attend to the offering, etc. Some will give an offering. Some people can sing...... and some may be so off key....that the best you could say is either their making a joyful noise or they must keep silent!?!?!!!!!!! What disturbing about a person saying quietly 'Thank you Jesus' when others are singing and their spirit identify with the sung words of praise.
Perhaps you're concerned about the potential of chaos and distraction. When we worship in church, do we just attend because its expected? Do we go through the rituals because its 'tradition'. Do we go for entertainment, and just to be controlled and led by leaders and some litergy? Do we go and invite the Spirit of God to move. Do we restrict God from his movement with in the body because of our tradition? I have been in some churches where there is so much protocol and appearances that one senses little of the presence of God. At such times the spirit within me has actually grieved because of the deadness of everyone's going through motions without bringing their gifts of worship.
As a pastor, are you distracted by the grief of an individual under conviction? How about the person who has just lost a partner and in the service remembrance of their soul-mate having been present on previous occasions brings them to quiet tears? Would you rather that people come with their baggage where they may find it lifted or prefer that they stay at home until they are ready to 'act' just like everyone else.
When Jesus rebuked the Pharisees, he does not tell them that they should have stopped doing what they were doing in worship and praise, but that they should also back up their public appearances with fruits in their private lives worthy of such appeal. He reminded them that what they do when motivated by public appearances, was for the praise of man..... but what counted more was the honoring of God and righteousness in the inward parts where no man sees but God.... Paul mentions that there were various gifts within the body, and we do not all have the same gifts. The body does not say to one part 'I have no need of you'. Those which are less attractive, may be those through whom the spirit ministers to another one's needs in the body. I have been grief stricken in church, but hear someone nearby say 'Praise the Lord' and felt the ministry to my own spirit as saying 'wake from the slumber of your personal grief and focus on ME, and the presence of me, that you already know is within, will lift your thoughts and your emotions towards peace and joy as you praise me.' The pslamist knew when he sang 'Thou has turned my mouring into gladness for thee!'
If the Spirit of God is directing the worship, it will be decently and in order. If worship is the 'acting' of the flesh, then the corperate is behaving as disorderly children.
Our heavenly Father has emotions, and made us with emotions. It is a natural process of worship to offer up to him our whole being, including our joy, our love, our praise, and sometimes even our grief and sadness. That such can be done and tempered with control without bridling the spirit is a precious experience in church. (ut oh...... now we get to the issues of experience.)
Perhaps you're concerned about the potential of chaos and distraction. When we worship in church, do we just attend because its expected? Do we go through the rituals because its 'tradition'. Do we go for entertainment, and just to be controlled and led by leaders and some litergy? Do we go and invite the Spirit of God to move. Do we restrict God from his movement with in the body because of our tradition? I have been in some churches where there is so much protocol and appearances that one senses little of the presence of God. At such times the spirit within me has actually grieved because of the deadness of everyone's going through motions without bringing their gifts of worship.
As a pastor, are you distracted by the grief of an individual under conviction? How about the person who has just lost a partner and in the service remembrance of their soul-mate having been present on previous occasions brings them to quiet tears? Would you rather that people come with their baggage where they may find it lifted or prefer that they stay at home until they are ready to 'act' just like everyone else.
When Jesus rebuked the Pharisees, he does not tell them that they should have stopped doing what they were doing in worship and praise, but that they should also back up their public appearances with fruits in their private lives worthy of such appeal. He reminded them that what they do when motivated by public appearances, was for the praise of man..... but what counted more was the honoring of God and righteousness in the inward parts where no man sees but God.... Paul mentions that there were various gifts within the body, and we do not all have the same gifts. The body does not say to one part 'I have no need of you'. Those which are less attractive, may be those through whom the spirit ministers to another one's needs in the body. I have been grief stricken in church, but hear someone nearby say 'Praise the Lord' and felt the ministry to my own spirit as saying 'wake from the slumber of your personal grief and focus on ME, and the presence of me, that you already know is within, will lift your thoughts and your emotions towards peace and joy as you praise me.' The pslamist knew when he sang 'Thou has turned my mouring into gladness for thee!'
If the Spirit of God is directing the worship, it will be decently and in order. If worship is the 'acting' of the flesh, then the corperate is behaving as disorderly children.
Our heavenly Father has emotions, and made us with emotions. It is a natural process of worship to offer up to him our whole being, including our joy, our love, our praise, and sometimes even our grief and sadness. That such can be done and tempered with control without bridling the spirit is a precious experience in church. (ut oh...... now we get to the issues of experience.)
Pastor Larry said:
Is that defined as "total uniformity of every action? Are we all identical creations? Does every child respond to his or her father identically?
Pastor Larry said:
- Does your italicized quote not contradict your emboldened quote?
- I know what you mean here, I think...but shouldn't we be quite careful when ascribing motives to one's actions in worship? Not accusing you...just pointing out that we must be careful, since we see the exterior, and the Lord sees the interior.
- "Maranatha!" (Come, Lord Jesus)
- "Hallelujah!" (Praise be to God)
- "Amen!" (So be it)
- "Hosanna!" (Rescue us)
After reading this entire thread, I agree with those that see nothing wrong with individuals raising their hands in a corperate setting - as long as it is not done in a way to call undo attention to oneself and distract others. While the church is one body, it is composed of many members. Why would we expect them all to act the same in every way like they were made out of the same cookie cutter?
Pastor Larry,
Do you allow someone to sing a song by themsleves...a "solo"...in your church? Do you allow someone to get up...all by themself...and give their testimony in your church? Do you have someone...all by themself...play some instrumental music while passing the collection plate at your church? Do you sometimes have one person...all by themslf...water baptized at your church?
What is it about someone one simply raising their hands to their Father that bothers you like this? I dont get it. Its such a simple and beautiful little thing. They are doing it as an individual. (((SO WHAT?))) Let them do it. Rejoice that someone is being so touched by God that they are wanting to in some way love Him back.
Regarding the possibility that they might be doing it to "draw attention to themselves", thats between them and God. And what are you doing judging their motives? Its really none of your business, or my buisiness or the one standing next to thems buisiness or anyone elses buisiness.
Its their buisiness alone why they are doing it. If they are doing it for wrong motives, God is fully able to take care of that problem. But if they are wanting to do it for the right reasons, but they shrink back because its just not part of the culture there, and they might be made to feel they are in the wrong, then is that something you want? The pastor...snuffing out sincere heart felt acts of worship in the meetings under his shepherding?
We are called to corporate worship, but we are all still (((individuals))) who are in corporate worship...
Its clear in those passages that in the midst of the many coming into the one body of Christ, we should still rejoice in the individuality of each individual member.
Grace and peace,
Mike
Do you allow someone to sing a song by themsleves...a "solo"...in your church? Do you allow someone to get up...all by themself...and give their testimony in your church? Do you have someone...all by themself...play some instrumental music while passing the collection plate at your church? Do you sometimes have one person...all by themslf...water baptized at your church?
What is it about someone one simply raising their hands to their Father that bothers you like this? I dont get it. Its such a simple and beautiful little thing. They are doing it as an individual. (((SO WHAT?))) Let them do it. Rejoice that someone is being so touched by God that they are wanting to in some way love Him back.
Regarding the possibility that they might be doing it to "draw attention to themselves", thats between them and God. And what are you doing judging their motives? Its really none of your business, or my buisiness or the one standing next to thems buisiness or anyone elses buisiness.
Its their buisiness alone why they are doing it. If they are doing it for wrong motives, God is fully able to take care of that problem. But if they are wanting to do it for the right reasons, but they shrink back because its just not part of the culture there, and they might be made to feel they are in the wrong, then is that something you want? The pastor...snuffing out sincere heart felt acts of worship in the meetings under his shepherding?
We are called to corporate worship, but we are all still (((individuals))) who are in corporate worship...
Its clear in those passages that in the midst of the many coming into the one body of Christ, we should still rejoice in the individuality of each individual member.
Grace and peace,
Mike
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convicted1
Guest
I was at church this last sunday(Brother Bob, my dad, and Brother Steve Johnson baptized me after the service) and a Elder got up to preach. Before he began preaching, he sang a song. During the song, the church ERUPTED in shouting, clapping hands, and women raising their hands in worship to God. They did this all around me....in front and behind me. This was not a distraction to me. I would feel funny if I went to a church that did not at least have a little shouting, and some "amens" while someone was preaching. To me, this is what makes it church...a time to worship our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. If anyone seems distracted by this, I feel so sorry for them. They just can't seem to see the "Goodness" of how the Lord blesses these individuals! I love my Jesus because He first loved me by dying on an Old Rugged Cross at Calvary. If I can shout at a ballgame, I will most certainly shout or clap my hands(Or maybe both) when my Lord blesses me. If anyone gets offended at that, then that's their problem. This is between God and me, not anyone else. I hope I don't sound to spiteful, but it's God who leads me in all my ways of worshipping Him, not mankind.
( In my avatar, you will see me in the middle, Brother Bob is on my left, my dad, Willis, Sr. on my right, and Brother Steve Johnson behind me). It was such a blessing to have my dad in the water to baptize me....it made it a little more special. He cried before, during, and after my baptism. I can't wait for the day-If it be the Good Lord's will- to wash his feet in a communion meeting. I love my dad so much!! I love Brother Bob so much, too. He will never know how much those kind words meant to me while going through my "travail"!!
Willis Fletcher, Jr.
( In my avatar, you will see me in the middle, Brother Bob is on my left, my dad, Willis, Sr. on my right, and Brother Steve Johnson behind me). It was such a blessing to have my dad in the water to baptize me....it made it a little more special. He cried before, during, and after my baptism. I can't wait for the day-If it be the Good Lord's will- to wash his feet in a communion meeting. I love my dad so much!! I love Brother Bob so much, too. He will never know how much those kind words meant to me while going through my "travail"!!
Willis Fletcher, Jr.
No we don’t. And if we did, the congregation better not just be the audience. The music is the singing of truth which should be viewed just as the preaching part of worship is.
The offering is something we do corporately. Everyone does it together. Finding seats is not an act of worship.
Yes, but people don’t just stand and belt something out. They sing when everyone sings together.
Nothing. Again, my point is whether or not acts of individualism have a place in corporate worship. I am not sure how many times I have to say that.
I think this is exactly the point. For many, the raising of hands is tradition.
This is obviously entirely different.
I agree. That’s hardly the point here.
Again, I agree. That’s hardly the point.
No, but corporate worship is just that. It is something that we do corporately, together. Not something we do individually.
They were all italicized so I don’t know what you are asking.
I didn’t ascribe any motives. I was speaking of what could be seen and the effect that it has on others.
Yes.
Why would you think I am so closed to it? Have I not repeatedly stated that I have no problem with raising hands, even in corporate worship? I am not sure how much more clear I could make that.
No.
On occasion.
No
No.
However, what do all those things have in common? They are done for the benefit of the body as a whole, for the assembled congregation. Raising hands is not.
I don’t get it either. Why do you think I am bothered by someone simply raising their hands to their Father? I am not. This is a different issue.
So should someone be allowed to break out in the middle of the message with a simple and beautiful little thing like a song? Would you rejoice that they are being so touched by God that they are in some way wanting to love him back?
Please go back and read what I said. I said nothing about them doing it to draw attention. I said nothing about their motives. I did comment on the effect. Even if they don’t want to draw attention to themselves, it might. And that is a problem.
I didn’t Its really none of your business, or my buisiness or the one standing next to thems buisiness or anyone elses buisiness.
I have yet to see any biblical warrant for it. Again, I am not opposed to it necessarily. But this thread has done nothing to encourage me to make it a part of the culture more than it already is.
But let me ask you: Would you snuff out the sincere heartfelt act of worship of someone breaking out into a song halfway through the message? What if two people did it at the same time? I am quite sure you don’t actually practice what you suggest here. You are perfectly willing to snuff out sincere heart felt acts of worship for various reasons.
I agree. That has nothing to do with this topic however.
Do you really mean to say that if someone doesn't worship just as you do that they can't seem to see the goodness of the Lord's blessing? Really? Come on now. Are you insisting that everyone respond just as you would?
Here's the thing: I would imagine that if people got their worship practice from the Bible alone, most of hte modern day worship practice of raising hands would not happen. The shouting of "Amen" and "'Mon now preacher" and the like would never be heard because they are nowhere seen in the Scripture. The problem is that people get their worship practices from tradition and culture more than from the Bible.
Think of the idea, "If I can shout at a ballgame, I can do it at church." Really? So we should get our worship practices from ballgames? I really think we need to do better than this.
How does this kind of attitude fit in with the biblical injunction of love for the brothers?
Far more than the raising of hands, I am concerned about the individualism. here you have someone expressly say they don't care about anyone else ... they will do what they want. How is that biblical in anyway?
MAN, I would hope that in the churches of those who don't want hands raised that no one comes to the Lord (why would someone draw attention to themselves like that in corporate worship) and that no one would kneel during prayer in humbleness and submission to the Lord - even if the Spirit has led them to their knees. Whew - what a proper corporate worship service that would be.
Kind of reminds me of maybe Stepford Christians.
Kind of reminds me of maybe Stepford Christians.
Ann,
Will you at least acknowledge that you are talking about something completely different than I am? I think that would be the least you could do so people don't confuse my comments with whatever you are talking about.
Will you at least acknowledge that you are talking about something completely different than I am? I think that would be the least you could do so people don't confuse my comments with whatever you are talking about.
I understand completely what Ann is saying. Which part of her message could possibly cause confusion?
I understand your points, Pastor Larry. I also understand everyone else's points. Moot ... moot ... moot ...
Follow as the Lord leads. He'll handle the details.
I understand your points, Pastor Larry. I also understand everyone else's points. Moot ... moot ... moot ...
Follow as the Lord leads. He'll handle the details.
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The idea that what I have said could possibly be construed to be against people coming to the Lord, or following the leading of the Lord, or being humble and submitted in prayer.
Pastor Larry said:
I'm talking about raising my hands in worship and submission to Christ. When I'm singing a song that has words that become a prayer from me, I raise my hands. When someone is praying and I am taking that prayer as my own to God, I'll raise my hands. I see this as an individual thing between me and God - but it's not disruptive nor does it take away from the corporate worship service. I'm feeling like you're saying that you can't do anything as an individual in the service - that it must only be corporately - kind of like in the Catholic church where everyone kneels, everyone stands, everyone makes the sign of the cross, everyone says the same exact words at the appropriate time. That is not what "Corporate Worship" is about. Remember that Paul talks about people speaking INDIVIDUALLY in the gatherings - with a prayer or prophecy. I would consider THAT to be more disruptive than me raising my hands, ya know?
But are is raising your hands essential to worship and submissino to Christ? I say no. You see it as an individual thing between you and God, and I am fine with that. But I am still wondering about the biblical basis for you to do this in a corporate worship.
Would you stand and start singing a song in worship to Christ in the middle of the pastor's message? Would that be considered acceptable? If not, how is doing your own thing singing different than doing your own thing raising hands?
Actually, you were talking about people coming to Christ in your previous post. Which was why I responded to clarify that my comments have nothing to do with what you said.
Second, I am not saying thatWell, I am not saying that "you can't do anything as an individual in the service - that it must only be corporately." I am actually posing a question, looking for the justification for doing individual acts of worship in a corporate worship service. So far, the theological justification is fairly scarce. It essentially amounts to "I want to do it and you can't tell me I can't," followed by "If you have a problem with it, that's your problem."
There has been a few passages quoted, but not really interacted with in any substantive way. What was the nature of lifting up hands in the sanctuary. Did everyone do it (as I have suggested)? Or was it just a few, or how was it done? What was the purpose of it (biblically speaking ... not your personal purpose)? How was early church worship conducted with respect to this (that's really a church history question)? What has been the pattern of the church through the last two millenia?
Why? Paul's instructions say that it must be done one at a time so that all can hear. He rules out individualism. He says it must be done for the edifying of the body, not the satisfaction of some personal impetus. It's not disruptive if you take turns, and speak so all can hear. That's a lot different than you raising your hands in front of me and blocking the view, or you raising your hands and gyrating your pelvis during singing.
Again, remember, I am not saying that it is wrong for an individual to raise hands. I am looking for some serious thought and interaction on teh nature of corporate worship and personal worship and teh things that we do in them. It seems to me there has not been a great deal of that here.
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