HisWitness
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Only because you cant see it yet :jesus::jesus::
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Rapture in 70 AD
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Only because you cant see it yet :jesus::jesus::
HisWitness
New Member
thank you--I need my eyes opened everday :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
at least I admit I do---we ALL really do
I used to be a futurist like you--but no more
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
It is the "futurist" who will see Jesus when He comes in the clouds. All others will see destruction.
saturneptune
New Member
Maybe this is a dumb question, but if the Rapture happened in 70 AD, how did Revelation get written? Wouldn't it have been easier for Paul to delay his execution for three years and just disappear?
Have you seen the left behind series produced by the Preterist? The opening scene is a crowd of Roman citizens back wanting their money back on the tickets to latest game. Today, it was the Lions vs the Christians. The Christian team never showed up. I like the scene where Nero executes the guards because of the mass jail escape.
Have you seen the left behind series produced by the Preterist? The opening scene is a crowd of Roman citizens back wanting their money back on the tickets to latest game. Today, it was the Lions vs the Christians. The Christian team never showed up. I like the scene where Nero executes the guards because of the mass jail escape.
Easy. The Preterist's date the writing of Revelation to before AD 70. See? You can do amazing things with numbers. You can even make up your own history.
HisWitness
New Member
there is more actual proof of it being a early date than a late date---do some study on it.
saturneptune
New Member
That is not true. I am suprised this board tolerates the Preterist anti-Scriptual positions.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
The fact that
John's exile is recorded as being while Domitian was ruling destroys the preterist's story.
Nero didn't exile Christians, he killed them, using their burning bodies as torches to light his garden.
Domitian did not begin his rule until more than a decade after the alleged return of Christ. There is no way the preterist view can be correct.
John's exile is recorded as being while Domitian was ruling destroys the preterist's story.
Nero didn't exile Christians, he killed them, using their burning bodies as torches to light his garden.
Domitian did not begin his rule until more than a decade after the alleged return of Christ. There is no way the preterist view can be correct.
Most Preterists aren't talking about a physical rapture. Instead they are speaking of a spiritual event. One of the challenges of understanding preterism is to not apply futurist eschatological concepts to it. I usually compare some of the concepts with preterism to an amillennial view of eschatology. It is more spiritual, idealist than dispensational, futurist.
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
That is True...
SN...you got a point there. I place this foolishness on the same level as the now-banned Millennial Exclusionists (see Bible Boys Mod sticky-note at the top of the General Discussions page)that used to try to ply their wares here. The only problem with completely banning these people (in my opinion) is that then we don't have the teaching opportunity of sharpening our skills at proving them wrong in open debate.
Bro.Greg:saint:
SN...you got a point there. I place this foolishness on the same level as the now-banned Millennial Exclusionists (see Bible Boys Mod sticky-note at the top of the General Discussions page)that used to try to ply their wares here. The only problem with completely banning these people (in my opinion) is that then we don't have the teaching opportunity of sharpening our skills at proving them wrong in open debate.
Bro.Greg:saint:
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DrJamesAch
New Member
Even if the prophecy of the return of Christ was fulfilled spiritually in AD 70 (and it wasn't), Preterist ignore the fact that the prophecy they rely on in Matthew 24 was written almost 40 years BEFORE the event occurred. So it was still a FUTURIST view from the point of the apostles WHEN IT WAS WRITTEN.
However, there is absolutely no Scriptural support for their being a "spiritual return". Jesus went out of His way to show Thomas that Jesus was not some spirit:
"And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord." John 21:20
When Thomas was told that Jesus was physically alive, he doubted, and affirmed He would not believe until he saw the print of the nails in His hands, and the scar in His side. When Thomas did see, he said "My Lord and My God". Jesus even ate fish to prove He was still in a physical body. Luke 24:42-43
It is THIS SAME Jesus that was seen ascending into heaven, and it was said that THIS SAME Jesus would return IN THE SAME MANNER as the disciples saw him go. Acts 1:1-6, and that they shall look on Him "whom they have pierced". The 'piercing' was written by John so that there would be no question that the "every eye that sees him" in Revelation 1:7 would be looking for a distinguishable PHYSICAL characteristic. How thus could every eye see the piercing if His return was only spiritual?
Preterists also make the assumption that only the church was able to see him. Not only is this never mentioned by John, but the Bible makes it clear that EVERY eye shall see Him, and ALL KINDREDS OF THE EARTH shall wail because of Him.
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The reason I don't debate this issue as much as I used to is because of statements like this. Obviously "Dr" knows nothing about preterism, or the difference between partial and full. What in the world(kosmos) does the dating of Matthew 24 have to do with anything. Of course preterist and everyone else knows Matthew 24 was written prior to AD 70.
Here is a statement I found that will be helpful for all the so called experts on preterism:thumbsup:
C. Jonathan Seraiah
"It is true that the "eschatology" of the New Testament is predominantly preterist. For those unfamiliar with the preterist perspective, it is the ancient view that many of the eschatological passages of the New Testament were fulfilled (completely) in the destruction of Jerusalem in a.d. 70. This view may sound novel, but in reality there have been orthodox adherents to it throughout church history (e.g., Clement of Alexandria, Eusebius, John Lightfoot, John Owen, Milton Terry, Jay Adams). This interpretation does not deny the Final Coming of Christ; it merely finds that not all "coming" passages refer to that event. The preterist interpretation is actually the most faithful to the biblical text because it recognizes that Old Testament prophetic terminology was used by the New Testament authors. This recognition is helpful in distinguishing the prophecies of Christ's coming that were near, in the first century (Matt. 10:23; 16:28; 24:30; 26:64; 1 Thess. 5:2; 2 Thess. 1:7; James 5:7-9; 1 Pet. 4:7; Rev. 1:3, 7; etc.) and thus fulfilled in a.d. 70, from those that were far (John 5:28-29; Acts 1:11; 17:31; 1 Cor. 15:23-24; 1 Thess. 4:16; 1 Jn. 3:2; etc.) and thus not yet fulfilled even in our day. It also helps to distinguish between a spiritual "coming" (invisible for temporal judgment, as in a.d. 70) and a physical coming (visible for eternal judgment)." (End of All Things)
I trust then you would disagree with one of our other preterists, HisWitness, who claims:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1997869&postcount=5
This is a terribly depraved place if it is "the new heaven and the new earth."
DrJamesAch
New Member
Obviously, there's a reason you are still a grasshopper and have not left your temple. But hey, "other orthodox believers have held to a preterist view" so I guess that settles it! The fallacy of appealing to historical figures as proof of the legitimacy of a doctrine.
Neither Full Preterists like David Green and Michael Sullivan, nor Partial Preterists like Hank Haneggraff and RC Sproul believe in a pre-tribulation rapture and BOTH CAMPS interpret Matthew 24 in whole as a being fulfilled in AD 70. The Partial Preterists merely distinguish between Revelation 1-19 and the Full Preterist claim that ALL of Revelation has been fulfilled.
Now on to your ignorant reading of why I used Matthew 24. If you had a 5th grade reading level, you would see that I was referring to someone's refutation of FUTURISM. Assuming that you even know what futurism is, it is the belief that there are yet FUTURE prophecies to be fulfilled. It really is that simple. To say that FUTURISM is false, is refuted by the fact that Matthew 24 WHICH IS RELIED ON BY PRETERISTS to claim that futurism is false, was written 40 years before AD 70, so TO THE APOSTLES, Matthew 24 was FUTURISM.
I wasn't trying to prove that a Preterist didn't know that Matt 24 was or was not written prior to AD 70. Only a biased ignoramus would read that into what I said. It was used to show that Preterists are not consistent in not only their definition of futurism but in the application of the accusation against the apostles who believed in futurism.
Furthermore, even in your own quote, it is admitted that there are preterists that believe in the second coming of Christ as yet an unfulfilled prophecy. Guess what genius, THAT'S FUTURISM. Do you understand that Preterism and Futurism are 2 different debates?
And no, your little quote wasn't helpful to anyone at all, just in your own world. The writer says that the "preterist interpretation is the most faithful" and then sites a plethora of verses that actually REFUTE preterism, such as Revelation 1:7 which I already expounded on above.
Anyone that can possibly see that Jesus ASCENDED into heaven visibly, with a body that had visible scars, and then interpret Rev 1:7 and Acts 1:6 that says He will return THE SAME WAY THEY SAW HIM GO as some sort of "spiritual returning" needs their head examined. Anyone that thinks that ALL KINDREDS OF THE EARTH would see a VISIBLE PIERCING in the side of an INVISIBLE CHRIST should be arrested and exiled to drug rehab.
Jack Hyles LIVES!!!!
DrJamesAch
New Member
I don't support him either, before or after his demise. Yet more of your ignorance showing!:laugh:
At Pentecost Peter quotes Joel, and speaks of judgment to come. He also speaks of salvation yet to come, not just on the Day of Pentecost, but for the future generations of the Jews. That in itself does not leave enough of a time-gap.
Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
What happened at Pentecost was NOT "that great and notable day of the Lord," that Peter refers to as he quotes Joel. It is still to come.
Note, that the Spirit was NOT poured out on ALL flesh. Three thousand were saved, but approximately 100,000 were present. That means the great majority rejected Christ--97,000. His Spirit was not poured out on all flesh, but some day it will be.
God's people did not dream dreams that day nor see visions. It is still to come.
There were no wonders in heaven.
The sun was not turned into darkness; the moon was not turned into blood.
All these things are still future. They will happen at the Second Coming.
They did not happen on the Day of Pentecost. There was a partial fulfillment of that prophecy. The complete fulfillment will come at the Second Coming.
We do not live in a new earth where Christ reigns. To think that we do is absurd. Christ will reign with a rod of iron. There are more Christians being persecuted in this century and last century than at any other time in history.
One example:
[FONT="]In Eritrea, since 2002, up to 3,000 Christians have been jailed and are left there in horrible conditions as “political” prisoners without any charges laid against them. This country now has the worst human rights record in the world.
[/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]This is not Christ's Kingdom is it?
[/FONT]
Joel was giving a "last days" prophecy:
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days
Therefore Pentecost was a last days event.
So I guess Peter was wrong. Instead of saying this:
Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
He should have said this:
Acts 2:16 But this is kinda like that which was spoken by the prophet Joel but not really;
So much for dispy literalism.
When will this happen? When will all mankind be saved?
Might want to read the rest of Acts.
You continue to not understand how the OT prophets used this type of language.
Then Peter was wrong.
Now back to the question, you believe the New H&E of Is. 65-66 is still future?
Preterist insist on the "natural" human meaning of the text when it comes to word like "soon", "quickly", etc when speaking of the Coming of the Lord but on the other hand insist on a spiritual meaning of the texts when it goes againt their preterist theory.
The strongest text which is a proof text against preterist is:
Acts 1
The strongest text which is a proof text against preterist is:
Acts 1
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven,shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven,shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
He was taken up visibly into heaven in His physical body while on the Mount of Olives, beheld by the apostles as He went up.
He (this same Jesus - not the Roman general Titus) was predicted to return in His physical body in like manner as He went up into heaven.
How about insisting upon the natural meanings of these texts?
Not only that, apparently He will return to that same place.
Zechariah 14
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
...
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
...
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
...
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
...
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Most of these prophecies according to any realistic interpretation must be viewed as unfulfilled. The totality of the chapter has to be "spiritualized" or spoken of as metaphorical. Not only in this chapter but many others.
As well as 2 Peter 3
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
The first event the flood of Noah, an undeniable physical earth encompassing event. Why then not the second wherein the earth shall be burnt up along along with its works?
Why not take the natural meaning of the second fiery event.
Along with that Peter plainly declares in this passage in reference to His delay :
2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Now some of us have been accused of being among those of whom Peter mentions:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
First we are not ignorant of the fact of the world perishing in water.
Second we are not scoffing but waiting patiently for the coming of the Lord.
James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
We know He will return and are patiently awaiting it because we know that to Him a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day.
Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
HankD
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