Rapture or Apostacy?

[beameup]

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

recently I was challenged on facebook by someone that the falling away refers to the rapture, the claim is that the Greek word can mean departure and does not mean Religious Apostasy in this case, to be quite honest I'm not sure which direction to go with this one, I can see how both cases can be valid.

I had a thought that possibly God is his sovereignty intends for the word to maybe mean both the rapture and the religious apostasy? of course I'm not solid on that it was just a thought.

I came to that conclusion quite on my own (with the inspiration of the H.S. of course).
The word apostasia underwent a change in meaning after being brought into the English language -
before the King James, several English translations render the word "departure".
Somehow, later it came to mean heresy. Perhaps it could be a "double entendre".
Israel still has "one week" (of years) left and that is reason enough for the Bride of Christ to "depart" this earth.

 

[Iconoclast]

I came to that conclusion quite on my own (with the inspiration of the H.S. of course).
The word apostasia underwent a change in meaning after being brought into the English language -
before the King James, several English translations render the word "departure".
Somehow, later it came to mean heresy. Perhaps it could be a "double entendre".
Israel still has "one week" (of years) left and that is reason enough for the Bride of Christ to "depart" this earth.

Do not ascribe your error to the Holy Spirit

 

[OldRegular]

Do not ascribe your error to the Holy Spirit

I will Amen that brother!

 

[Yeshua1]

I will Amen that brother!

there will still be though a "snatching away" of the saints, its just we disagree as to its timing!

 

[beameup]

there will still be though a "snatching away" of the saints, its just we disagree as to its timing!

Some on this thread, I'm sure, deny the "harpazo". Perhaps the "spirit" revealed that to them.

 

[OldRegular]

Welcome to the Baptist Board, Jordan. You've stepped in your first pile with this subject, as there are many who inexplicably reject clear biblical teaching regarding Christ coming for His church,

And just what is that clear Biblical teaching. It came out of the vision of Margaret Macdonald, the mind of John Darby, and the Scofield notes and it is a false doctrine! Just as the "parenthesis" Church is a false doctrine!

Jesus Christ will come for His Church when He calls ALL[size] the dead out of the graves and then the Great White Throne Judgment.[John 5:28, 29]

preferring the false teaching of men in spite of excellent exegesis of a myriad members who know, understand, and believe the truth and present it every time a "rapture" thread shows up. Personally, I've grown tired of it, because it's always the same ones who won't believe, won't listen, and won't change their minds. I still love 'em and fellowship with 'em anyway. Sorry you had to find this out so early.

But God bless, and Godspeed, in your journey through this fellowship.

:wavey:

The following is taken out of context but it addresses the above meanderings.

Luke 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch? They keep digging a deeper hole!

 

[evenifigoalone]

I fall somewhat into the pre-trib camp, but at this point I've just about completely given up trying to decipher prophecy. Since it deals with future events, it's hard to interpret. I bet no one understands it as well as they think they do.

Will the rapture happen? Will it not happen? Who cares, let's just be about God's will for our lives.

 

[Luke2427]

I fall somewhat into the pre-trib camp, but at this point I've just about completely given up trying to decipher prophecy. Since it deals with future events, it's hard to interpret. I bet no one understands it as well as they think they do.

Will the rapture happen? Will it not happen? Who cares, let's just be about God's will for our lives.

And most prophecies have already been fulfilled. Most of the Bible's prophecies deal with the first advent of the Messiah.

Most of the NT prophecies have been fulfilled by 70AD.

And I agree with your sentiment.

These TBN, Hal Lindsay types would have every newspaper article be the fulfillment of some prophecy.

People get enamored with that junk.

If people were half as interested in the Great Commission as they were the "signs of the times" we'd have won the world ten times over by now.

 

[beameup]

Too Bad Jesus left this out in Matthew 24, huh? Musta been inna hurry. Poor disciples, they thought they were gonna go through the great tribulation he told them about.
Or maybe 'falling away' actually means 'falling away'. And we are waiting for the sign of the sun, moon, stars disrupted, the sky removed, and the Lamb appearing, like Jesus told us.

hmmmmmmm "Prophet"

It's that pesky "70th Week of Daniel".
Most "assume" that Jesus never spoke prophetically and about the Tribulation and those Jewish "disciples" yet future.
Most "assume" that there will be no Apostles during the Tribulation (saved in the manner of Saul/Paul).
Most "assume" that these Jewish Tribulation disciples/apostles would never actually read the Gospels and Hebrew Epistles.
Most "assume" many things.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, [Temple in Jerusalem]
(whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come
down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with
child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matt 24:15-21

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

And just what is that clear Biblical teaching. It came out of the vision of Margaret Macdonald, the mind of John Darby, and the Scofield notes and it is a false doctrine!

1 Thessalonians 4, NASB
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming.
---
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.​

Sorry, OR, but the rapture was taught by Paul and believed by the rest of the disciples. I'm sure you have all sorts of explanations as to why these verses don't teach the rapture, but they do. That's all I'm going to say, because I'm not going to get into a back-and-forth with a brother in Christ over a truth that is not central to salvation.

 

[pinoybaptist]

.......................................................................................................... I'm not going to get into a back-and-forth with a brother in Christ over a truth that is not central to salvation.

we don't see eye to eye in this doctrine, bro, but I take my hats off to these last words.....
:thumbs:

 

[OldRegular]

1 Thessalonians 4, NASB
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming.
---
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.​

Sorry, OR, but the rapture was taught by Paul and believed by the rest of the disciples. I'm sure you have all sorts of explanations as to why these verses don't teach the rapture, but they do. That's all I'm going to say, because I'm not going to get into a back-and-forth with a brother in Christ over a truth that is not central to salvation.

Sorry brother but you just don't understand Scripture. There is not one word in the above passages that speaks of a pre-trib rapture. If there is I wish you would identify it for me. Furthermore you have to deny the clear teaching of Jesus Christ in John 5:28, 29 to deny a general resurrection and judgment.

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Consider what happens at the "last trumpet", the seventh trumpet of the Book of Revelation.

Revelation 11:15-19, KJV
15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

[OldRegular]

That's all I'm going to say, because I'm not going to get into a back-and-forth with a brother in Christ over a truth that is not central to salvation.

I agree! The issue of the pre-trib rapture has nothing to do with salvation in my opinion. I suspect that many on this Forum don't necessarily agree with that.

in all honesty, though I get a little tired of hearing about the "grrreaat" tribulation and Daniel's 70th week, I don't really care what Christians believe about the return of Jesus Christ as long as they believe in a visible return and the resurrection of the dead. I have been known to debate this issue vigorously though!

My problem with dispensationalism is their doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church, that the Church is an interruption in God's plan for Israel. That is unScriptural doctrine in my opinion!

Then of course there are the hyper-dispensationalists who seem to believe Paul is a reincarnation of Jesus Christ since they are hung up on Paul's Gospel even though Paul clearly says:

Romans 1:16
16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

 

[agedman]

My problem with dispensationalism is their doctrine of the "parenthesis" Church, that the Church is an interruption in God's plan for Israel. That is unScriptural doctrine in my opinion!

Then of course there are the hyper-dispensationalists who seem to believe Paul is a reincarnation of Jesus Christ since they are hung up on Paul's Gospel even though Paul clearly says:

Romans 1:16
16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

I am not a big "rapture" addict, but calmly anticipate the Lord's preserving from the coming day of wrath be it in sleep or in catching away. I really don't care - I just long to go home. More so every day.

More to the last part of your statement, you are correct about "parenthesis" teaching (which I have not been a big fan).

The plan of salvation is unchanged from the beginning of humankind.

What I perceive is that God once somewhat ignored the gentiles, occasionally using them as a tool to punish, and redirect the people called by His name.

Did not Christ reflect the way Jews considered gentiles by calling the woman a dog?

Did not Peter have to be "reeducated" in his thinking?

Was not Paul known as the apostle to the gentiles - though most apostles went to gentile nations and were martyred?

Did not the first major conflict arrive as a result of gentiles believers and what Jewish "laws" they were to follow?

My point being that the "parenthesis" is a very unfortunate wording and often misdirected teaching.

What should have been really taught (in my perspective) is that now, in this time, the gentiles are no longer excluded but fully accepted as heirs just as much as any of the root of Abraham. This is as the first church of Jerusalem published by their decree about the Jewish laws.

Of course the danger comes when one desire some greater claim - and "punish" the Jews as a result of some superiority thinking. History is full of this sort.

Paul deals with that sour stinkin-thinkin in Romans, and rather harshly. Showing that Israel is not rejected, but the gentiles are the ones being grafted into the plan now, too.

When one does look at the prophetic structure concerning Israel, coupled with the statements of Christ in Matthew (beginning in 23), and those of Paul (Romans 11) and of John (Rev.) Israel is never out of God's eye, but will all be saved (blending both Jew and Gentile believers into one unit and one assembly).

The "parenthesis" teaching that I heard was sloppy and unfortunate.

Let the readers understand, I do not hold that the Church replaced Israel - that thinking is just not Scripturally sound (actually less sound than the "parenthesis").

 

[agedman]

Sorry brother but you just don't understand Scripture. There is not one word in the above passages that speaks of a pre-trib rapture. If there is I wish you would identify it for me. Furthermore you have to deny the clear teaching of Jesus Christ in John 5:28, 29 to deny a general resurrection and judgment.

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I agree, OR.

The verse you quoted parallels that John recorded in Rev. 20 about the final judgement:

11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
​

There most certainly is a general resurrection and judgment - Just as John records at the beginning of his writings and at the end of his writings.

Consider what happens at the "last trumpet", the seventh trumpet of the Book of Revelation.

Revelation 11:15-19, KJV
15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

I would add a bit of caution that the casual reader of the BB does not read into this quote from Rev. some action that wasn't.

The only action seen is the "ark of his testament" being revealed. The very article in which the world even to this day seeks and desires for both proof of Israeli claim to the land and the power it has related to it. All the rest is a record of what is proclaimed and the reaction of the worldly ungodly.

Rev. 11 is a statement, which is followed by detail of how that statement is/was carried out.

Sort of like what one reads when reading a typical scientific writing - a brief statement at the beginning that is followed by the details which explain in more particular the how and the authority of the how with the documentation necessary to let the reader know why the writer is factual.

Are these factual?

Did they happen?

If so, then what happens in Rev. 19 to then end will happen, too.

That includes a series of battles (called armegedon), the bodily return of Christ to this earth, binding of Satan with "chains," full millennial reign of a 1000 years, the loosing of Satan and final deceiving, and end of all things as humankind knows it - A new heaven and a new earth.

 

[OldRegular]

I am not a big "rapture" addict, but calmly anticipate the Lord's preserving from the coming day of wrath be it in sleep or in catching away. I really don't care - I just long to go home. More so every day.

More to the last part of your statement, you are correct about "parenthesis" teaching (which I have not been a big fan).

The plan of salvation is unchanged from the beginning of humankind.

What I perceive is that God once somewhat ignored the gentiles, occasionally using them as a tool to punish, and redirect the people called by His name.

Did not Christ reflect the way Jews considered gentiles by calling the woman a dog?

Did not Peter have to be "reeducated" in his thinking?

Was not Paul known as the apostle to the gentiles - though most apostles went to gentile nations and were martyred?

Did not the first major conflict arrive as a result of gentiles believers and what Jewish "laws" they were to follow?

My point being that the "parenthesis" is a very unfortunate wording and often misdirected teaching.

What should have been really taught (in my perspective) is that now, in this time, the gentiles are no longer excluded but fully accepted as heirs just as much as any of the root of Abraham. This is as the first church of Jerusalem published by their decree about the Jewish laws.

Of course the danger comes when one desire some greater claim - and "punish" the Jews as a result of some superiority thinking. History is full of this sort.

Paul deals with that sour stinkin-thinkin in Romans, and rather harshly. Showing that Israel is not rejected, but the gentiles are the ones being grafted into the plan now, too.

When one does look at the prophetic structure concerning Israel, coupled with the statements of Christ in Matthew (beginning in 23), and those of Paul (Romans 11) and of John (Rev.) Israel is never out of God's eye, but will all be saved (blending both Jew and Gentile believers into one unit and one assembly).

The "parenthesis" teaching that I heard was sloppy and unfortunate.

Let the readers understand, I do not hold that the Church replaced Israel - that thinking is just not Scripturally sound (actually less sound than the "parenthesis").

I believe God called Israel for one purpose, the vessel through which He would accomplish the Incarnation! After the crucifixion the standing of Israel before God was the same as all peoples! Those of Israel are saved just like anyone else.

I would point out that many of the leaders in the dispensational movement teach a parenthesis Church.

 

[OldRegular]

I agree, OR.

The verse you quoted parallels that John recorded in Rev. 20 about the final judgement:

11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
​

There most certainly is a general resurrection and judgment - Just as John records at the beginning of his writings and at the end of his writings.

I don't agree. You are placing the general resurrection go John 5:28, 29 after the so-called tribulation.

I would add a bit of caution that the casual reader of the BB does not read into this quote from Rev. some action that wasn't.

The only action seen is the "ark of his testament" being revealed. The very article in which the world even to this day seeks and desires for both proof of Israeli claim to the land and the power it has related to it. All the rest is a record of what is proclaimed and the reaction of the worldly ungodly.

The action revealed is in Verse 15:

Revelation 11:15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.[/QUOTE]

 

[kyredneck]

...What I perceive is that God once somewhat ignored the gentiles, occasionally using them as a tool to punish, and redirect the people called by His name.

Did not Christ reflect the way Jews considered gentiles by calling the woman a dog?.....

So I'm curious; while God was kinda sorta ignoring the Gentiles were they all destined for hell?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So I'm curious; while God was kinda sorta ignoring the Gentiles were they all destined for hell?

Good question....so in the mind of God the Gentiles were an afterthought!?! REALLY????

 

[Yeshua1]

1 Thessalonians 4, NASB
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming.
---
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.​

Sorry, OR, but the rapture was taught by Paul and believed by the rest of the disciples. I'm sure you have all sorts of explanations as to why these verses don't teach the rapture, but they do. That's all I'm going to say, because I'm not going to get into a back-and-forth with a brother in Christ over a truth that is not central to salvation.

jesus returns first time for His Church, then returns to establish His Kingdom reign upon the earth!