Rapture questions

[Darrell C]

Seems youve been playin that game from the start. Below you find my 1st question.

I guess my 1st question is...can anyone find one scripture sayin we are heading for heaven when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye

Youve yet to post scripture saying we head to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event. Youve done a song and dance. Just post the scripture. Ill read it myself. Youve yet to do that. Instead you start talkin bout glorified bodies

Here is the response to your question. I will emphasize the Scripture (in red) and the points (in green) to make it a little easier to find:




The glorification of the believer is described here...



1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


...and here...




1 Corinthians 15:49-54

King James Version (KJV)


49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


We know that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" means he is referring to something other than being translated into the Kingdom of Christ, plus, in view, like the first passage, is resurrection unto incorruptible flesh. This resurrection is likened to Christ's, so the only conclusion we can draw is that in view is the resurrection of believers.

Now unless we want to violate 1 Thessalonians and say Paul had no idea what he was talking about, we have to maintain the position that when the Church is resurrected and caught up...the entire Church is resurrected and caught up at the same time.

Both living and dead are instantaneously resurrected and caught up.

So the point is this: in both passages reference is made to being resurrected and being joined unto Christ. The "Kingdom of God" in view is speaking of Heaven, we know this because flesh and blood does inherit the spiritual Kingdom of God while in unredeemed flesh, and the Millennial Kingdom will begin with only born again and physical believers entering into it.

The conclusion is that the Rapture (the catching away) is the time when all of the Church is resurrected at the same time, and since this is not the case in the resurrections listed in the events of the Tribulation and the Millennial Kingdom, then it stands to reason that this event must take place separately from those resurrections.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Seems youve been playin that game from the start. Below you find my 1st question.

I guess my 1st question is...can anyone find one scripture sayin we are heading for heaven when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye

Youve yet to post scripture saying we head to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event. Youve done a song and dance. Just post the scripture. Ill read it myself. Youve yet to do that. Instead you start talkin bout glorified bodies

I will also emphasize the conflict in your response here:

Seems youve been playin that game from the start. Below you find my 1st question.

I guess my 1st question is...can anyone find one scripture sayin we are heading for heaven when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye

Youve yet to post scripture saying we head to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event. Youve done a song and dance. Just post the scripture. Ill read it myself. Youve yet to do that. Instead you start talkin bout glorified bodies

You ask if anyone can find one Scripture that states we are heading to Heaven when we are changed, then object when I point out why the two passages that describe this change have to refer to our going to Heaven.

You have not made the first attempt to even address this point, but as is usual with those who deny the Pre-Tribulation Rapture...you go on to start teaching your view.

Then you say...

Youve yet to post scripture saying we head to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event. Youve done a song and dance. Just post the scripture.

...? lol

Ill read it myself

I wish you would, and not only that...address the point.


God bless.

 

[DHK]

Not according to scripture

MARK 13 [19] For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.[20] And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.[21] And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:[22] For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.[23] But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

{verses 19-23 describe the trib period}
{verses 24-27 describe the Day of the Lord}

[24] But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the SUN SHALL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT,[25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.[26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.[27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

In Mark you see the great tribulation period is FOLLOWED by a dark sun and dark moon

JOEL 2 [30] And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. [31] THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND THE TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD COME.

In Joel we find the sun will be darkened and the moon into blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord

Pretty simple

"That Great and Terrible Day of the Lord" is used in more than one simple sense, as you are using it. Thus you are not rightly dividing the word of truth. But you are describing what is called The Tribulation by quoting such verses.

 

[OldRegular]

I guess my 1st question is...can anyone find one scripture sayin we are heading for heaven when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye?

They can't even find a Scripture saying the Church is "snatched out"!:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:

 

[Chowmah]

Here is the response to your question. I will emphasize the Scripture (in red) and the points (in green) to make it a little easier to find:




The glorification of the believer is described here...



1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

How can you make the claim that the 1Thes.4 event happens before the tribulation period?

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period

 

[Chowmah]

They can't even find a Scripture saying the Church is "snatched out"!:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:

Well OldRegular, the church {whose the real church} is snatched out, taken away....the question is where are they taken. The Rapturist claim they are goin to heaven but theres not one scripture that actually says that. I guess those guys must think Jesus will come back to earth to show them directions to heaven. Well Hes not. Hes stayin here with us

 

[Darrell C]

They can't even find a Scripture saying the Church is "snatched out"!:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:

The Catholic Doctrine you teach has been corrected over and over, yet you still cling to it.

That you have not, in the nauseatingly extensive Rapture threads you have been part of, still not understood what harpazo means and still deny the catching away of the Church so clearly presented by Paul can only be attributed to a desire to maintain the traditional teachings of the Catholic Church.

Anybody that denies the Rapture obviously intends to create doctrine in a selective manner. Meaning they use that which suits their doctrine, and ignore that part of Scripture which shows their doctrine not just false, but taking away from Scripture itself.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

How can you make the claim that the 1Thes.4 event happens before the tribulation period?

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period

Like I said, I am not answering any more questions until you respond to the answers already given.

This is why many remain stagnant in doctrines of men...because they refuse to actually address the points made.

It is hilarious.

Your approach is just like that taken by the one you just pointed out to that there is indeed a Rapture.

So if you want to have a discussion...answer the points raised. I will not waste my time unless you are willing to put in the work necessary to come to an understanding of why the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the only view which harmonizes all Prophecy.

You can string as many verses and passages together that you like, but there are certain truths which show it is impossible for the Rapture of the Church to take place at the end of the Tribulation, or...at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

But I am not going to go through the effort to supply answers to your questions if you are not going to show the same courtesy and respond to mine.


God bless.

 

[DHK]

They can't even find a Scripture saying the Church is "snatched out"!:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:-:laugh:

Do you understand what Darrell is asking you"

still not understood what harpazo means

Can you explain this Greek word: harpazo?

 

[Chowmah]

Anybody that denies the Rapture obviously intends to create doctrine in a selective manner.
God bless.

Your puttin a lot a people in that boat. The rapture wasnt even invented till about 1700 yrs after Christ

 

[DHK]

Your puttin a lot a people in that boat. The rapture wasnt even invented till about 1700 yrs after Christ

You need to answer Darrell's question to OR:

That you have not, in the nauseatingly extensive Rapture threads you have been part of, still not understood what harpazo means and still deny the catching away of the Church so clearly presented by Paul can only be attributed to a desire to maintain the traditional teachings of the Catholic Church.

Can you do that?
What does the Greek word in 1Thes.4:17 harpazo mean?

 

[Chowmah]

The conclusion is that the Rapture (the catching away) is the time when all of the Church is resurrected at the same time, and since this is not the case in the resurrections listed in the events of the Tribulation and the Millennial Kingdom, then it stands to reason that this event must take place separately from those resurrections.


God bless.

See. Its hard to answer your posts. You claim the 1Cor.15 event is not a resurrection event. Thats like sayin the grass aint green. How am i to reply to that?

1 CORINTHIANS 15 [42] So also is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. It is sown in corruption; it is RAISED IN INCORRUPTION: [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 COR. 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and we shall be changed.

REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and i saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

After the 1st resurrection we are to be with Christ for the 1000 yr period of rest. Then comes the 2nd


YIKES

 

[Chowmah]

What does the Greek word in 1Thes.4:17 harpazo mean?

Caught up

Why?

 

[Darrell C]

See. Its hard to answer your posts. You claim the 1Cor.15 event is not a resurrection event. Thats like sayin the grass aint green. How am i to reply to that?

1 CORINTHIANS 15 [42] So also is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD. It is sown in corruption; it is RAISED IN INCORRUPTION: [43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1 COR. 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and we shall be changed.

REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and i saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] BLESSED AND HOLY IS HE THAT HATH PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION: ON SUCH THE SECOND DEATH HATH NO POWER, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

After the 1st resurrection we are to be with Christ for the 1000 yr period of rest. Then comes the 2nd


YIKES

Gosh, sure would like to help you better understand the First Resurrection, but until you address the points already made you will have to stick with the error you have presented here.

Now wouldn't you like to know the truth about the First Resurrection?

I want you to.

So just address the points, my friend, so we can get to the really interesting elements of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.


God bless.

 

[DHK]

Caught up

Why?

In the Latin Vulgate 1Thes.4:17 is
deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

The Greek word: harpazo is translated into the Latin word "rapiemur," which, when transliterated is "raptured." Rapture is found in the Bible. It is in the Latin Vulgate. It means "caught up," or "snatching away."

 

[Chowmah]

In the Latin Vulgate 1Thes.4:17 is
deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

The Greek word: harpazo is translated into the Latin word "rapiemur," which, when transliterated is "raptured." Rapture is found in the Bible. It is in the Latin Vulgate. It means "caught up," or "snatching away."

Whats your point? Caught up. Raptured. What it comes down to is we meet the Lord in the air. Thats gonna happen. Where the rapturist go astray is they say were goin to heaven after we meet the Lord in the air. We do not

 

[Chowmah]

1THES.4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

When 1Thes.4 takes place, what really happens? The rapturist would have you to believe we fly off to heaven. What do the scriptures say? Keep in mind that many Rapturist claim youll find nothing of the so called rapture in the book of the prophets {the old testament} but....

AMOS 3 [7] Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Surely thats not true

EZEK.37
[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Theres THE DEAD IN CHRIST who rise first (1Thes.4). But..... there not headin for heaven.

[21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Its the gathering of Gods people, THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AT HIS COMING. The gathering will be done in the twinkling of an eye. Not by public transit. And were all headin for the land of Israel as promised in the Word.

[24] And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
[25] And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

We will have One shepherd.

[26] Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will SET MY SANCTUARY IN THE MIDST OF THEM FOR EVERMORE. [27] MY TABERNACLE ALSO SHALL BE WITH THEM: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Verses 26 and 27. “And so shall we ever be with the Lord” {1Thes.4 v17}. Its quite obvious that 1Thes.4 and Ezek.37 are speaking of the same event. No so called rapture. But the gathering of Gods people to the kingdom

 

[DHK]

Whats your point? Caught up. Raptured. What it comes down to is we meet the Lord in the air. Thats gonna happen. Where the rapturist go astray is they say were goin to heaven after we meet the Lord in the air. We do not

The rapture is the first resurrection.
We meet the Lord in the air. In order to meet the Lord in the air we need to have a new body. "So will we ever be with the Lord." We will not depart from Him again. That is the resurrection, the one and only time we will be resurrected. It takes place before the tribulation, quite unlike 2Thes.1:7-9
where Christ comes in flaming power and in vengeance to punish those who have not obeyed the gospel. That is at the end of the Tribulation.

 

[Chowmah]

The rapture is the first resurrection.
We meet the Lord in the air. In order to meet the Lord in the air we need to have a new body. "So will we ever be with the Lord." We will not depart from Him again. That is the resurrection, the one and only time we will be resurrected. It takes place before the tribulation, quite unlike 2Thes.1:7-9
where Christ comes in flaming power and in vengeance to punish those who have not obeyed the gospel. That is at the end of the Tribulation.

PSALM 37 [27] Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.[28] For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.[29] The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.[30] The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.[31] THE LAW OF HIS GOD IS IN HIS HEART; none of his steps shall slide.[32] The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him.[33] The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.[34] WAIT ON THE LORD, AND KEEP HIS WAY, AND HE SHALL EXALT THEE TO INHERIT THE LAND: WHEN THE WICKED ARE CUT OFF, THOU SHALT SEE IT.

Read Psalm 37. We aint goin to heaven. We will wait right here on Gods good green earth. We will SEE the wicked cut off and inherit the land promised to the fathers

 

[Chowmah]

The rapture is the first resurrection.

Please explain that to DC