Rapture - The Poll

[saturneptune]

Ditto THAT Bob....I do think though that the church, the body of Christ that is alive at and before the time of the Rapture will have to undergo increasing degrees of suffering and persecution for our faith. We've had it real good in this country for a long time and I see that slipping away with increasing speed as the time of the "catching away" of the church nears. I don't think we deserve, or will get a "free pass" just because we are Americans under grace in the church age. There have already been millions that have suffered and died for their faith since the time that Christ walked the earth. That is just the reality of the situation....but oh...what joys await us on the other side!!!!! We are instructed to "set our affection on things above, not on things on the earth." (see Col.3:1-4) Even so,come Lord Jesus!

Bro.Greg:thumbsup::saint:raying:

I certainly agree with that aspect. If all of us as American perished today by some catastrophic event, our lives would be more blessed than most in history who have gone before us. How many Christians have made the decision to stand up for Jesus in the face of life or death? It is most assuredly a more profound decision based on faith than deciding whether we get an I phone or a regular cell phone. Most all if not all of us have enjoyed all our needs met for a lifetime, and to date, have enjoyed the ability to go to church and worship without fear of persecution. How many opportunities have we wasted as the days pass to serve the Lord that others risked their lives for as each of their days passed.

 

[OldRegular]

Ditto THAT Bob....I do think though that the church, the body of Christ that is alive at and before the time of the Rapture will have to undergo increasing degrees of suffering and persecution for our faith. We've had it real good in this country for a long time and I see that slipping away with increasing speed as the time of the "catching away" of the church nears. I don't think we deserve, or will get a "free pass" just because we are Americans under grace in the church age. There have already been millions that have suffered and died for their faith since the time that Christ walked the earth. That is just the reality of the situation....but oh...what joys await us on the other side!!!!! We are instructed to "set our affection on things above, not on things on the earth." (see Col.3:1-4) Even so,come Lord Jesus!

Bro.Greg:thumbsup::saint:raying:

Given your statement:

There have already been millions that have suffered and died for their faith since the time that Christ walked the earth.

Isn't it a little ridiculous to believe that God will take a failed Church out of the world before the s0-called great 7 year tribulation.

 

[OldRegular]

You would have to eat oatmeal or forgedabout it. :laugh:

Back in Appalachia we ate oatmeal, no grits for usens. I been in SC 52 years and I still don't eat grits. I do like the big ones called hominy though!

 

[OldRegular]

If the rapture doesn't happen first then please explain why Christ is seen coming in the clouds as the first event in Revelations?.

The Scripture you indicate does not say when He is coming, only that He is.

Revelation 1:3-7
3. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
4. John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5. And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6. And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Now where in the above passage does it indicate the timing of the Second Coming. According to some dispensationalists the rapture is in Revelation 4:1.

If God protects all the Christians during the tribulation. Then why are so many martyred? There heads being cut off does not sound like protection to me.

Christians have always endured tribulation and always will. That was a promise of Jesus Christ.

John 15:18,19
18. If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.
19..If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 16:33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

If Christians live through the tribulation, How come there are only two witnesses preaching the gospel

You are trying to interpret apocalyptic literature literally. Can't be done!

IHow come the only ones saved out of tribulation are Jews?. 144000 of them.
MB

Where does it say that 144,000 Jews were saved.

 

[webdog]

What are the 10 "other" views?

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Not Really...

Given your statement: Isn't it a little ridiculous to believe that God will take a failed Church out of the world before the s0-called great 7 year tribulation.

Not ridiculous at all. God already knows what He will do to bring His "plan for the ages" to pass. It is not a matter of anybody getting any kind of "pass". The tribulation you refer to will not happen until the Holy Spirit is removed from His "habitation" here on earth. That habitation is us....since we are His dwelling place here on earth. God will NOT take His Spirit away from us. He will take US away with His Spirit....at a time of His choosing that ONLY He knows. These events WILL happen according to 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 2 Thes.1-12. We are to serve Him faithfully until that day comes. The 7 year time of tribulation will be unlike any other form of tribulation that has ever beset this earth and its inhabitants and it will be severe. It will not be "mere" suffering. It will also be geared toward punishing the wicked and unbelieving pagans and heathens that will be left here in their UNBELIEF. BUT...it will not be God doing the punishing. It will be God removing His "hand of protection" (the Holy Spirit) from the remaining inhabitants of this world which will allow Satan to have His reign of terror on them without the hindrance of the Holy Spirit's presence. That wicked one will conduct a reign of terror on the earth that will make Hitler's and Osama Bin Laden's acts look like acts of generous benevolence. It will also be for the purpose of the re-awakening of God's covenant people, the Jew, the nation of Israel by the powerful testimony of His two witnesses...and of those people, He has already revealed that a specific number of them of every tribe (12,000 of each tribe or 144,000 total) will be delivered and spared by their Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ. We will be coming back with Him when He returns to deal with the armies of the world and the Anti-Christ at the battle of Armageddon and then we will rule and reign with Him for a thousand years here. What a glorious day that will be! Do ANY of us either NOW, IN THE PAST, Or IN THE FUTURE deserve any of this??? Absolutely NOT. We will not be there based on any of our failures, sins OR any supposed "successes" of our own. We will be there because of the good will, good pleasure, Love, Mercy and GRACE of our God and the PRECIOUS BLOOD of our Blessed Saviour. It is not now, nor ever has been about whether OR what we deserve....and Praise and Thank God for THAT! I've seen what sizzling bacon looks like....don't care to go there.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[Benjamin]

I strongly reject the teaching of pretrib Dispensationalism on many principles and especially do not believe the escapist theorists are correct about flying away before the tribulation begins so I urge those who have gotten caught up in these doctrinal tales concerning promises of comfort and escape to heed the warnings of such false teachings, to beware of the foretold ploys of the anti-Christ who comes first and his deceitful ways and also not to neglect being well prepared as the Word purposefully equips us to be in the case they don’t sprout wings for the purpose of carrying them to the true Christ, but, if fact, quite the opposite.



Eze 13:20
(20) Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

And My Hope Remains....

I strongly reject the teaching of pretrib Dispensationalism on many principles and especially do not believe the escapist theorists are correct about flying away before the tribulation begins so I urge those who have gotten caught up in these doctrinal tales concerning promises of comfort and escape to heed the warnings of such false teachings, to beware of the foretold ploys of the anti-Christ who comes first and his deceitful ways and also not to neglect being well prepared as the Word purposefully equips us to be in the case they don’t sprout wings for the purpose of carrying them to the true Christ, but, if fact, quite the opposite.



Eze 13:20
(20) Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

Ok brother...you are entitled to your OPINION....either way, one way or another I'll see you on the other side. I still think "my crowd" is right for the reasons stated above that I have observed that the scriptures DO plainly teach. We are directed to "be ready" and "live holy lives" so when the time does come we will be prepared to face the Lord. I'm just sad you can't, for whatever reason, enjoy the same good hope that I do. God Bless you either way Ben. Maybe it's one of those "cultural differences" you spoke of in another thread. I like the culture I'm in! Makes me want to SHOUT....OFTEN!!!:thumbs: If I believed I had to endure that awful tribulation I'd be of all people MOST MISERABLE!

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[OldRegular]

Not ridiculous at all. God already knows what He will do to bring His "plan for the ages" to pass. It is not a matter of anybody getting any kind of "pass". The tribulation you refer to will not happen until the Holy Spirit is removed from His "habitation" here on earth. That habitation is us....since we are His dwelling place here on earth. God will NOT take His Spirit away from us. He will take US away with His Spirit....at a time of His choosing that ONLY He knows. These events WILL happen according to 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 2 Thes.1-12. We are to serve Him faithfully until that day comes. The 7 year time of tribulation will be unlike any other form of tribulation that has ever beset this earth and its inhabitants and it will be severe. It will not be "mere" suffering. It will also be geared toward punishing the wicked and unbelieving pagans and heathens that will be left here in their UNBELIEF. BUT...it will not be God doing the punishing. It will be God removing His "hand of protection" (the Holy Spirit) from the remaining inhabitants of this world which will allow Satan to have His reign of terror on them without the hindrance of the Holy Spirit's presence. That wicked one will conduct a reign of terror on the earth that will make Hitler's and Osama Bin Laden's acts look like acts of generous benevolence. It will also be for the purpose of the re-awakening of God's covenant people, the Jew, the nation of Israel by the powerful testimony of His two witnesses...and of those people, He has already revealed that a specific number of them of every tribe (12,000 of each tribe or 144,000 total) will be delivered and spared by their Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ. We will be coming back with Him when He returns to deal with the armies of the world and the Anti-Christ at the battle of Armageddon and then we will rule and reign with Him for a thousand years here. What a glorious day that will be! Do ANY of us either NOW, IN THE PAST, Or IN THE FUTURE deserve any of this??? Absolutely NOT. We will not be there based on any of our failures, sins OR any supposed "successes" of our own. We will be there because of the good will, good pleasure, Love, Mercy and GRACE of our God and the PRECIOUS BLOOD of our Blessed Saviour. It is not now, nor ever has been about whether OR what we deserve....and Praise and Thank God for THAT! I've seen what sizzling bacon looks like....don't care to go there.

Bro.Greg:saint:

So you are saying God is going to use a 7 [or 3.5] year reign of terror by Satan to "awaken" the Jews when 2000 plus years of the Holy Spirit could not "awaken" them. Strange, Very Strange! Israel is no longer the covenant people of God, only those redeemed by Jesus Christ are His Covenant people.

You make the mistake that many do of interpreting apocalyptic language as if it were literal. Also if you will read that list of 12,000 again you will see that Dan is missing and Ephraim is missing while Joseph is included. Confusing is it not!

 

[webdog]

I strongly reject the teaching of pretrib Dispensationalism on many principles and especially do not believe the escapist theorists are correct about flying away before the tribulation begins so I urge those who have gotten caught up in these doctrinal tales concerning promises of comfort and escape to heed the warnings of such false teachings, to beware of the foretold ploys of the anti-Christ who comes first and his deceitful ways and also not to neglect being well prepared as the Word purposefully equips us to be in the case they don’t sprout wings for the purpose of carrying them to the true Christ, but, if fact, quite the opposite.



Eze 13:20
(20) Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

This means the fullness of Gods wrath placed on Christ was insufficient, ineffective or just a warm up of things to come.

 

[MB]

Given your statement: Isn't it a little ridiculous to believe that God will take a failed Church out of the world before the s0-called great 7 year tribulation.

Those who would tear us all down complain about the failures. When it is God who gives the increases. Sounds as if you are really saying God is a failure? Man can't do anything with out God being in it.
MB

 

[MB]

The Scripture you indicate does not say when He is coming, only that He is.

It's place in Revelations shows clearly that He will appear in the clouds just before the tribulation starts.

Revelation 1:3-7
3. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
4. John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5. And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6. And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Now where in the above passage does it indicate the timing of the Second Coming. According to some dispensationalists the rapture is in Revelation 4:1.

Where the verse is placed and written into the passage it self. First things come first in prophecy. This is the first thing happening before the warnings to the Churches.
Revelation 4:1 Is John being taken up into heaven to view all these things that take place in the tribulation

Christians have always endured tribulation and always will. That was a promise of Jesus Christ.

Yes this is true however the tribulation spoken of in Revelations is unlike any other in history and the trials we have gone through so far will seem miniscule in comparison.

John 15:18,19
18. If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.
19..If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

John 16:33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.






You are trying to interpret apocalyptic literature literally. Can't be done!

I don't believe for minute that God would have told us all that He has if it wasn't meant to be understood. Many believe common man can't understand it. Yet it was written for the common man and common men understand it. It was meant to confuse the wise.

Where does it say that 144,000 Jews were saved.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Please don't tell my you believe it to be God's particular elected Gentiles, when the times of the Gentiles are over by then.
MB

 

[Benjamin]

This means the fullness of Gods wrath placed on Christ was insufficient, ineffective or just a warm up of things to come.

Seems to me it’s the Dispies who prescribe to that the covenantal promise of God has not yet been fulfilled or was “insufficient”, as if there are dual covenants or something, one for us and one yet to come for them, eh? Maybe He was just warming up for the “Jews” (the other Israel)???

 

[Benjamin]

Ok brother...you are entitled to your OPINION....

Thx...:smilewinkgrin:

I'm just sad you can't, for whatever reason, enjoy the same good hope that I do. God Bless you either way Ben.

You’re making quite a few presumptions with that statement. I have great hope:

Mar 13:20
(20) And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

And also I take comfort in that I won’t be caught up in the seductions of escapist doctrines:

Mar 13:21-23
(21) And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
(22) For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
(23) But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

If I believed I had to endure that awful tribulation I'd be of all people MOST MISERABLE!

I know you guys would claim that the Holy Spirit would be removed in such a time, but I believe such to be impossible according to my faith through the promises of God…so, no fear.

You know, I’m tempted, because I could probably have some “cultural” fun going after these “new found traditional teachings” with you guys here through getting all dogmatic about this, but you guys wouldn’t like it one bit and anyway I’m pretty busy besides being rusty on this subject therefore it would be too time consuming for me to brush up, catch up and deal properly with all the new friends I’d be making by stirring up this debate. :saint:

But God bless you too either way.

 

[Iconoclast]

Seems to me it’s the Dispies who prescribe to that the covenantal promise of God has not yet been fulfilled or was “insufficient”, as if there are dual covenants or something, one for us and one yet to come for them, eh? Maybe He was just warming up for the “Jews” (the other Israel)???

:laugh::thumbsup: Benjamin...you posted without a lecture on philosophy, debate rules/fallacies......progress:thumbsup::applause:

 

[RLBosley]

Not during but just before. Rev.1:7

Our gathering happens after the revealing of the Anti Christ.

Then how do you think that the rapture is before the tribulation?

The 144000 are Jews saved during the tribulation "the remnant"

As soon as someone accepts Christ they will be hunted down and killed. Martyrs are those who refuse to worship the beast, because they worship Christ. It will be law that everyone worship the beast

So somehow this one super bad guy will know everything an everyone who is born again will immediately be hunted down? How is that even remotely possible?

I don't know that John did get the names wrong. Which tribes name isn't right?.
MB

The list of the tribes in Joshua (those who received land) is: Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Benjamin, Ephraim, and Manasseh.

Revelation instead lists:Judah, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zabulon, Joseph, Benjamin.

So the list in Revelation has Joseph instead of Ephraim instead of Dan, Levi is included. No explanation is given as to why. Also, Judah is listed first which is totally inconsistent with the Old Testament. All this together seems to indicate that this is a spiritual people, not physical national Jews. This is not 144,000 Jews - this is the church.

Ok brother...you are entitled to your OPINION....either way, one way or another I'll see you on the other side. I still think "my crowd" is right for the reasons stated above that I have observed that the scriptures DO plainly teach. We are directed to "be ready" and "live holy lives" so when the time does come we will be prepared to face the Lord. I'm just sad you can't, for whatever reason, enjoy the same good hope that I do. God Bless you either way Ben. Maybe it's one of those "cultural differences" you spoke of in another thread. I like the culture I'm in! Makes me want to SHOUT....OFTEN!!!:thumbs: If I believed I had to endure that awful tribulation I'd be of all people MOST MISERABLE!
Bro.Greg:saint:

There is no reason to think that belief in the post-tribulation appearing of Christ and the gathering of the elect would somehow cause one to lose their joy. I used to be a firm pre-trib dispensationalist but I have much more joy now that i have a better understanding of scripture since I left that view.

Acts 5:41
And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

Yes we are to be ready and to look for His coming, but that coming is never said to be a secret coming to rescue the believers, instead it is always to be ready and look for His appearing .

 

[OldRegular]

Those who would tear us all down complain about the failures. When it is God who gives the increases. Sounds as if you are really saying God is a failure? Man can't do anything with out God being in it.
MB

Where did I say God was a failure?

Why do dispensationalists teach that God must take the Church out before Israel can be saved? An Israelite or Jew can only be saved the same way as anyone else, through faith in Jesus Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[OldRegular]

It's place in Revelations shows clearly that He will appear in the clouds just before the tribulation starts.

Not really! Revelation 1 is simply an introduction. According to dispensationalists we have to get through the Church age [Chapters 2 & 3] 2000 years and counting, and then the Rapture, before the tribulation starts in Chapter 6.

Where the verse is placed and written into the passage it self. First things come first in prophecy. This is the first thing happening before the warnings to the Churches.
Revelation 4:1 Is John being taken up into heaven to view all these things that take place in the tribulation

So the Rapture occurs when? Before the Church age?

Yes this is true however the tribulation spoken of in Revelations is unlike any other in history and the trials we have gone through so far will seem miniscule in comparison.

How so?

I don't believe for minute that God would have told us all that He has if it wasn't meant to be understood. Many believe common man can't understand it. Yet it was written for the common man and common men understand it. It was meant to confuse the wise.

I agree! Sadly Dispensationalism bases their eschatology on an extremely difficult verse in Daniel and then force other Scripture regarding the Second Coming to fit their bad doctrine. They keep digging their hole deeper instead of smarting up like some [Progressive Dispensationalists] and climbing out!

When it comes to God wanting us to understand Scripture why is it that Dispensationalists completely ignore the words of Jesus Christ in John 5:28, 29:

28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This passage clearly teaches a General Resurrection and General Judgment yet dispensationalists either ignore it completely or interpret it falsely!

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Please don't tell my you believe it to be God's particular elected Gentiles, when the times of the Gentiles are over by then.
MB

If this is referring to the 12 tribes of Israel and is to be interpreted literally where is Dan, where is Ephraim?

All believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit. This passage is speaking of all the Saints on earth at any given time.

 

[OldRegular]

All this together seems to indicate that this is a spiritual people, not physical national Jews. This is not 144,000 Jews - this is the church.

Well said!!

 

[webdog]

Seems to me it’s the Dispies who prescribe to that the covenantal promise of God has not yet been fulfilled or was “insufficient”, as if there are dual covenants or something, one for us and one yet to come for them, eh? Maybe He was just warming up for the “Jews” (the other Israel)???

If you go back and see how God has dealt with Israel throughout history you will see the current time is really no different. Romans 11 is pretty clear God is not through with Israel. John 3:36 is clear God's wrath is done with us. The only way this can be true is via the pre-trib position.