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Ray Boltz Comes Out
- Thread starter Revmitchell
- Start date
They don't come to the hospital if they are not looking for treatment... fwiw I work in a hospital and see people go AMA all the time. People that don't want treatment don't stay in the hospital.LeBuick said:
People going to church may "seem" like they don't want to change to walk the right walk, but they do... somewhere down deep...
I went to church for years not because I was told to, or because I had to, but because I felt like I needed to or wanted to.. That was during my gay days... Looking back now I see that the Holy Spirit was guiding me and gently nudging me where I needed to be and that in and of itself helped me come to terms with my lifestyle and helped me have the courage to change it.
I am sad to see that people would so easily kick people out of the church or not even allow them in the church when that is exactly where they need to be.. God can conquer all.. sometimes it doesn't happen in our timing... and on the surface it would look like that person would never have Christ in them, when in fact God is working on the inside first before it shows on the outside...
Had my church and Pastor not been a "hospital" I would still be living in a gay lifestyle I feel.
Jamie
Seems like I read in another post that he (Boltz) had made a statement to the effect that he "--was now going to live as God made him"; if I'm wrong here, I rescind my post.
However, if that statement is true, then he has no desire to change, and is only seeking approval of his deviancy. In this case I stand by what I posted.
However, if that statement is true, then he has no desire to change, and is only seeking approval of his deviancy. In this case I stand by what I posted.
JamieinNH said:
Jamie, very well stated. I agree wholeheartedly. I was saved when I was 13 years old, and when I left for college, I drifted away, quit going to church, lived with my boyfriend, did drugs, all sorts of sin. I know that My Lord never stripped me of my salvation, and I know that He welcomed me with open arms when I began going back to church and began to feel convicted of my sinful life....and eventually, with a church family praying and watching, I rededicated my life and joined a local body of believers. A lot of years were strung in between.
I would be embarrassed to say I was a Christian who was following God's commandments if I turned my back on anyone who needed help - even if they didn't seek help. If nothing else, weak Christians, PRAY for Ray. He needs our prayers.
Debbie Mc
I have not seen anyone who would "easily" kick anyone out of the church. But there are those who hold to biblical guidelines with regard to sin in the church.
Heb 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives."
Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
Heb 12:8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
Heb 12:10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.
Heb 12:11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Heb 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives."
Heb 12:7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
Heb 12:8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
Heb 12:10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.
Heb 12:11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Alive in Christ
New Member
RevMitchell,
You posted...
(bolding mine)
Thanks for posting those scriptures. They are wonderful scriptures. And very important ones.
A couple of questions:
1) Exactly who is doing the disciplining, in every one of those passages of scripture?
Pastors, elders, and deacons?
Or God?
2) Where is the teaching in there about throwing the sinners out of the church"?
:godisgood:
You posted...
(bolding mine)
Thanks for posting those scriptures. They are wonderful scriptures. And very important ones.
A couple of questions:
1) Exactly who is doing the disciplining, in every one of those passages of scripture?
Pastors, elders, and deacons?
Or God?
2) Where is the teaching in there about throwing the sinners out of the church"?
:godisgood:
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Alive in Christ said:
Ray Botz is in anathema sit and should be excluded from fellowship. Fortunately for him we're in the NT rather than the OT where the punishment from the community was much harsher.
Marcia
Active Member
Alive in Christ said:
I know you addressed Rev. Mitchell, but look at Matt. 18.15-17, 1 Cor. Chapter 5, and 2 Thess.
3:6 and 14.
This is to be done after confronting the person in private, trying to show him he needs to repent, and bringing him before the church. If he does not repent at any of these points, he is to leave the fellowship. This is done so that he can be confronted with his sin and hopefully repent. Then there is a process of restoration.
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Does this hold true to the people that:Marcia said:
Live together without being married?
Gossip?
Lie, Cheat Steal?
How about the ones that don't carry out the Great Commision?
Are not faithful to their spouses?
Don't pray daily and seek the Lord in ALL they do?
The way I see it, from BOTH sides of the fence now is that if we exclude anyone that hasn't repented from their sins, then we will have a lot of empty churches.
I will admit that unless Ray comes to back to the Lord he shouldn't preach, or lead song worship or have an active role in the church, but to complete banish him from church is wrong. There are so many "sinners" going to church and they all need to hear the Gospel and live for Christ... If we shut them out the likely they will repent on come back grows dim in my opinion.
Had I been shut out complete from church I wouldn't be where I am today.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I say yes to all those not in bold. People who practice this on a regular basis are in anathema sit and therefore not elect.
Marcia
Active Member
JamieinNH said:
If the person is doing any of the first 5 things above plus being unfaithful in marriage, they are to be confronted about it. Obviously, if they are doing these things, it is known so it's a problem. If you have someone in the church, for example, who is stealing and it's known he/she is stealing, that person needs to be confronted and asked to repent. If the person repents, that's the end of it unless they do it again.
Read 1 Cor. chapter 5. Paul rebukes the Corinthians because they were allowing sexually immoral people in the church to continue that behavior without confronting or rebuking them. It was infecting and destroying the church.
Well, most people in church are sinning in private - that is, I don't know the sins of most people in my church! And it's probably true that mostly they are repenting of it. Most believers I know do confess their sins and are trying to overcome sin habits. We are talking about those who are not repenting, who maybe are not even admitting it is a sin.
You say exclude people who are not repenting - don't you think that's a problem if Christians are sinning openly and not repenting? Of course, it is.
If he is openly admitting to homosexual behavior and is not repenting, he should be confronted lovingly, asked to repent, and if he doesn't, he needs to be put out of the church according to the Bible.
I think you are missing the point, Jamie. We are not talking about Christians sinning - we all sin. We are talking about unrepentant sinning. I really don't know any Christians personally like this now, but I do know of some cases of it in the past in my church and other churches.
When you went to your church, were you admitting openly to practicing homsexuality? Were you living openly with a partner? Were you openly defending the homosexual lifestyle?
Alive in Christ
New Member
Marcia,
OK, lets look at those.
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It doesnt say in Matt 18, 15-17 to throw him out of the church.
It says in those passages that he is to be like a tax collector or heathen.
Jesus welcomed the heathen and tax collectors. Thats why He was hated so much by many of the Pharisees and others who were prideful and self rightious. He welcomed the whore when she wanted to approach Him and even minister to Him.
If these people are part of the organised ministry in some way, they should lose their position, but not be thrown out of the church.
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In the 1st Corinthians situation this was not simply people in the fellowship who were struggling with a sexual sin problem.
These were EXCEEDINGLY grievious sins that were so deplorable that even the Gentiles (meaning the lost heathens of course) considered it to be horrifying. These were mothers and sons, and daughters and fathers...having sexual relations with one another. And Gods people were glorying in how "liberal" they were and how they were condoning this for some reason.
Thats a lot different than a church preaching and teaching the truth, yet allowing those struggling with some sexual sin to continue to be welcome to attend.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In 2 Thessalonians 3: 6-15 I dont see anything about throwing brothers or sisters out of the church, but rather disassociating with them in the work of minstry. Not throwing them out of the church. Paul was carefull to say "Yet do not count Him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we are supposed to throw people out of the church because they are stuggling with some sin, than whats the deal with the book of Ephesians?
In Ephesians 4: 17 through 5: 8, the scriptures identify people...in the church fellowship...struggling with the following sins:
Lying (4: 25)
Excessive anger (4: 26)
Stealing (4: 28)
Corrupt communication (4: 29)
Fornication (5: 3)
Filthiness, course talking and jesting (5: 4)
This is all going on...IN THE CHURCH, and there is not one single word about throwing them out of the church.
What DOES God say to them?
To the one lying He says....stop lying and start being honest. Why? Because "You are members of one another".
To the ones committing sexual immorality God says to "put it off" because..."Its not fitting for saints"
To the ones stealing He says to stop, because its better than he "have something to give to those in need".
And to all of these people...people struggling with sin in the church...
And...
There is nothing in here about throwing them out of the church. Just good solid wisdom from God...teaching them to "put off the old man" so that they can "put on the new man" and walk consistently with...WHO...THEY...ARE...in Christ.
Sealed in the body of Christ for redemption, and secured for heaven.
God does not tell us...Do it or I will throw you out!!!!
God says...Put the new man on because its the only thing that fits you. And your life will be so much better when you do. Because God does chastise His children.
He does that...not us.
:godisgood:
OK, lets look at those.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It doesnt say in Matt 18, 15-17 to throw him out of the church.
It says in those passages that he is to be like a tax collector or heathen.
Jesus welcomed the heathen and tax collectors. Thats why He was hated so much by many of the Pharisees and others who were prideful and self rightious. He welcomed the whore when she wanted to approach Him and even minister to Him.
If these people are part of the organised ministry in some way, they should lose their position, but not be thrown out of the church.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
In the 1st Corinthians situation this was not simply people in the fellowship who were struggling with a sexual sin problem.
These were EXCEEDINGLY grievious sins that were so deplorable that even the Gentiles (meaning the lost heathens of course) considered it to be horrifying. These were mothers and sons, and daughters and fathers...having sexual relations with one another. And Gods people were glorying in how "liberal" they were and how they were condoning this for some reason.
Thats a lot different than a church preaching and teaching the truth, yet allowing those struggling with some sexual sin to continue to be welcome to attend.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
In 2 Thessalonians 3: 6-15 I dont see anything about throwing brothers or sisters out of the church, but rather disassociating with them in the work of minstry. Not throwing them out of the church. Paul was carefull to say "Yet do not count Him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we are supposed to throw people out of the church because they are stuggling with some sin, than whats the deal with the book of Ephesians?
In Ephesians 4: 17 through 5: 8, the scriptures identify people...in the church fellowship...struggling with the following sins:
Lying (4: 25)
Excessive anger (4: 26)
Stealing (4: 28)
Corrupt communication (4: 29)
Fornication (5: 3)
Filthiness, course talking and jesting (5: 4)
This is all going on...IN THE CHURCH, and there is not one single word about throwing them out of the church.
What DOES God say to them?
To the one lying He says....stop lying and start being honest. Why? Because "You are members of one another".
To the ones committing sexual immorality God says to "put it off" because..."Its not fitting for saints"
To the ones stealing He says to stop, because its better than he "have something to give to those in need".
And to all of these people...people struggling with sin in the church...
And...
There is nothing in here about throwing them out of the church. Just good solid wisdom from God...teaching them to "put off the old man" so that they can "put on the new man" and walk consistently with...WHO...THEY...ARE...in Christ.
Sealed in the body of Christ for redemption, and secured for heaven.
God does not tell us...Do it or I will throw you out!!!!
God says...Put the new man on because its the only thing that fits you. And your life will be so much better when you do. Because God does chastise His children.
He does that...not us.
:godisgood:
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Alive in Christ
New Member
At the church I was a part of prior to my current church (both conservative Bible believing Baptist churches) there was a man who was a homosexual. Everyone knew it and the Pastor knew it.
And the pastor held nothing back with His messages. He preached or taught what he believed God put on his heart to preach or teach. And if it was on sexual sin...so be it.
But NOBODY...not the pastor nor anyone else...took that young man aside to tell him they were going to throw him out of the church if he didnt repent immedietly.
What did we do? We loved him. He wasnt flaunting anything or trying to change our minds about it. We didnt *celebrate* his problem, and we didnt tell him we approved. But we also didnt take every opportunity to tell him how sinful his situation was, either. If it happened to come up naturally in conversation, or in a message, and he was around, well...he would hear the truth. But we still loved him and cared for him.
We didnt HAVE to tell him how sinful the situation was all the time, God was surely taking care of that. He and the Holy Spirit are very good at that.
I have since moved to another city and a new fellowship, so I dont know what is going on with Him these days.
But I wouldnt be surprised if things are turning in the right direction.
:godisgood:
And the pastor held nothing back with His messages. He preached or taught what he believed God put on his heart to preach or teach. And if it was on sexual sin...so be it.
But NOBODY...not the pastor nor anyone else...took that young man aside to tell him they were going to throw him out of the church if he didnt repent immedietly.
What did we do? We loved him. He wasnt flaunting anything or trying to change our minds about it. We didnt *celebrate* his problem, and we didnt tell him we approved. But we also didnt take every opportunity to tell him how sinful his situation was, either. If it happened to come up naturally in conversation, or in a message, and he was around, well...he would hear the truth. But we still loved him and cared for him.
We didnt HAVE to tell him how sinful the situation was all the time, God was surely taking care of that. He and the Holy Spirit are very good at that.
I have since moved to another city and a new fellowship, so I dont know what is going on with Him these days.
But I wouldnt be surprised if things are turning in the right direction.
:godisgood:
Alive in Christ said:
If I am any indication of what happened to him, I would say he has changed or will change.
The way you described your church was exact my expereience.. People knew, but that didn't make them coddle(sp) me nor did they slam the dorr in my face. They were truthful when it came up to what the Bible said and they let the HS guide me away from that life.
I see Clay Aiken, a professing believer, has garnerd the courage to also "come out", although I'm not really sure anyone had any doubts before. How sad... :tear:
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h88VUqAk-dW1JWAbdV4iCWFsNDcQD93D3O300
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h88VUqAk-dW1JWAbdV4iCWFsNDcQD93D3O300
Marcia
Active Member
Alive in Christ said:
It means at the very least to treat the person like an unbeliever.
Then you disagree with 1 Cor chapter 5. So you disagree with what God says? Remember, we are talking about unrepentant sinners openly sinning and flouting it and not caring.
It was sexual immorality which homosexuality would fall under.
We are not talking about people "struggling" with a sexual sin, but those who profess to be believers flouting it and not caring!
Yes, he is to be admonished. If this does not work, then what? Then we follow the other scriptures.
You are missing the point. We are not talking about believers struggling with sin.
That is because this is the warning, the admonishment. But if one continues in the sexual immorality, let's say, then what? That is what we are talking about.
Sorry, you are wrong on this. We are to disfellowship believers who continue to openly sin and not repent after they are confronted, talked to, asked to repent, etc.
Otherwise, 1 Cor. 5 is wrong. And then this passage is wrong:
This means they were turned out of the church. This is a form of discipline - "tough love" - so that they will turn back to the Lord. These are instructions from God.
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Yes, I was/am a believer. My biological father was a Baptist minister for over 20 years before he passed away. I was raised in a church, knew/know the Bible and still fell into the gay lifestyle.Marcia said:
I understand where you're coming from, but you have to understand where I have been and where I am now. It's all because of two reasons..
One, God never let go of me. The Holy Spirit worked on my life even when I
rebelled against him.
Two, my Pastor the church make he aware that what I was doing was wrong, but they never casted me out, they never even hinted that I should be casted out. They treated me with love and respect without approving of what I was and how I lived.
Those two factors lead me back to Christ and where I am today.
I have felt a calling from the Lord for many years now, and only now do I think I can go to school and study to become what the Lord has in store for me. If that should happen to be leading a church, I will respect and love anyone that comes into the church. I won't mixed words, I won't beat around the bush and approve of a sinful lifestyle, but I will pray for them, I will care for them and I will gently nudge them into a lifestyle that is pleasing to God. It's what happened to me and I know first hand of the success it had.
I have repented and am now ready to live the life Christ wanted me to live. I was not always where he wanted me, but I know he was never far away from me. He did love me even while I was in the lifestyle I lived, but it's similar to a parent loving their child that is in prison (which I also know about first hand). The parent will always love their child, but not that actions of the child.
Again, I fully understand where you are coming from, but I have to base my opinion and my way of thinking on my real life example and how it worked and helped me.