RCC is NOT a Force for Good

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Stephen Fry's criticism of the Catholic Church....what do you think (its scathing)! :smilewinkgrin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6L1xvdZMC10

 

[Baptist4life]

Waiting for the catholic rebuttal.............should be good.

 

[Matt Black]

He'd be equally trenchant about Baptists, in fact about just about any Christian denomination, with the possible exception of the Quakers. You do know he's a militant atheist, secularist and homosexual, don't you?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

He'd be equally trenchant about Baptists, in fact about just about any Christian denomination, with the possible exception of the Quakers. You do know he's a militant atheist, secularist and homosexual, don't you?

That was evident by his own commentary however how do you review his criticism of the RCC?

 

[Baptist4life]

You do know he's a militant atheist, secularist and homosexual, don't you?

Doesn't change the facts he presented against the RCC, does it? I'm not supportive of HIS lifestyle, but what about what he said do you find fault with? Other than his defense of homosexuality, I thought he had many good points against the RCC.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I did know that, however, I still enjoyed him on Black Adder!!!! A very well written English Comedy. But I think I'm a Ben Elton fan because I also enjoyed The Thin Blue Line. Though one might think I'm a Rowan Akinson fan and I do enjoy his comedy. I can't say I'm a big fan of Mr. Bean. Though I did laugh hysterically at Both Johnny English movies.

 

[Matt Black]

My work computer doesn't have speakers so I can't listen to the clip at the moment but I've heard him fulminate at the mouth about Christianity before and haven't been impressed, despite liking him as Melchet and admiring his generally great intellect.

 

[Baptist4life]

I did know that, however, I still enjoyed him on Black Adder!!!! A very well written English Comedy. But I think I'm a Ben Elton fan because I also enjoyed The Thin Blue Line. Though one might think I'm a Rowan Akinson fan and I do enjoy his comedy. I can't say I'm a big fan of Mr. Bean. Though I did laugh hysterically at Both Johnny English movies.

Did you also laugh hysterically at all the vile history of the RCC that he talked about? :tear:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It was difficult to understand because of the echo. However, to note some of his begining comments he begins by saying he believes in the enlightenment which he means that there is nothing greater than man's ability to reason out for himself anything of substance as long as it doesn't have to do with God. He erronously claims Galileo was tortured as he buys full scale into the misinformation spread about Galileo. His next contention is that he has a problem not with the devoute Catholics but rather the amount of money given to them who in turn gives it to people in need. Then he regurgitates the propaganda that has been going on for years about abuses which did occure by evil men in the Church but speaks about it as if it were a normal occurance. certainly evil of this magnitude can be found in any Christian body. Finally, he doesn't like the exclusionary belief of the Church. And of course misrepresents it. He doesn't like that there is no women clergy. He doesn't like the belief about the Eucharist. He doesn't like that Men who are clergy are in a long line of men who have had hands laid on them by men going back to Jesus whom he simply mentions as the "carpenter". And as I was listening to him I recall an old Poem "first they came for the communist, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't communist. Then they came for trade unionist, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist, then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a jew, Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak out because I wasn't Catholic, then they came for me and there was no one left to speak for me."

Lets be clear. The world is coming for the Christians to get rid of our moral stances and us if they can. The Catholic Church is on the front line because it is the most recognizable of all Christian Churches. It takes the strongest doctrinal moral stances to social behavior. And since other Christian denominations disaproves of Catholics as well the world thinks they have an ally because the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Therefore the plan of attack is take out the Catholic Church have other Christians turn against the Catholics to help them out. And once the Catholic Church is out of the way mopping up the other Christians will be an easy matter. Then they believe no one will hold them accountable for their immoral choices and disregarding God and they will be free without argument to make gods of themselves.

Don't kid yourself Fry would come after Baptist if he didn't want them to support his Anti-Catholic rhetoric.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Did you also laugh hysterically at all the vile history of the RCC that he talked about? :tear:

Why are you being confrontational? I wasn't being confrontational with you nor was I insulting. Do you just get your kicks insulting Catholics? Or what?

I don't have a problem speaking reasonably about disagreements but when people start being confrontational I know it no longer is about truth but just a venue for insulting someone they are pedujiced against.

And just like Many Americans towards the African Americans pre-civil rights, or to the Italians or Irish or Chinese of the early 1900's people people think its ok to be rude to someone because they aren't of someone elses particular group. Its a shame there are Christians who do this to other Christians. However, I'm not suprised as the world is full of sin.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It was difficult to understand because of the echo. However, to note some of his begining comments he begins by saying he believes in the enlightenment which he means that there is nothing greater than man's ability to reason out for himself anything of substance as long as it doesn't have to do with God. He erronously claims Galileo was tortured as he buys full scale into the misinformation spread about Galileo. His next contention is that he has a problem not with the devoute Catholics but rather the amount of money given to them who in turn gives it to people in need. Then he regurgitates the propaganda that has been going on for years about abuses which did occure by evil men in the Church but speaks about it as if it were a normal occurance. certainly evil of this magnitude can be found in any Christian body. Finally, he doesn't like the exclusionary belief of the Church. And of course misrepresents it. He doesn't like that there is no women clergy. He doesn't like the belief about the Eucharist. He doesn't like that Men who are clergy are in a long line of men who have had hands laid on them by men going back to Jesus whom he simply mentions as the "carpenter". And as I was listening to him I recall an old Poem "first they came for the communist, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't communist. Then they came for trade unionist, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist, then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a jew, Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak out because I wasn't Catholic, then they came for me and there was no one left to speak for me."

Lets be clear. The world is coming for the Christians to get rid of our moral stances and us if they can. The Catholic Church is on the front line because it is the most recognizable of all Christian Churches. It takes the strongest doctrinal moral stances to social behavior. And since other Christian denominations disaproves of Catholics as well the world thinks they have an ally because the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Therefore the plan of attack is take out the Catholic Church have other Christians turn against the Catholics to help them out. And once the Catholic Church is out of the way mopping up the other Christians will be an easy matter. Then they believe no one will hold them accountable for their immoral choices and disregarding God and they will be free without argument to make gods of themselves.

Don't kid yourself Fry would come after Baptist if he didn't want them to support his Anti-Catholic rhetoric.

Again, I am not trying to make this post about Stephen Fry....to me he is merely a voice to criticize the RCC & there have been many. I will add that I personally have no love for the RCC & the day of its extinction would be applauded by me, however there are people who are saved in it despite its own fraudulent claims of being the "One True Church". The only plausible function of the RCC that I can see today is to serve as a competitive model of how not to be a Christian.

 

[Baptist4life]

Why are you being confrontational? I wasn't being confrontational with you nor was I insulting. Do you just get your kicks insulting Catholics? Or what?

I don't have a problem speaking reasonably about disagreements but when people start being confrontational I know it no longer is about truth but just a venue for insulting someone they are pedujiced against.

And just like Many Americans towards the African Americans pre-civil rights, or to the Italians or Irish or Chinese of the early 1900's people people think its ok to be rude to someone because they aren't of someone elses particular group. Its a shame there are Christians who do this to other Christians. However, I'm not suprised as the world is full of sin.

I wasn't being confrontational. You posted this:

Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
I did know that, however, I still enjoyed him on Black Adder!!!! A very well written English Comedy. But I think I'm a Ben Elton fan because I also enjoyed The Thin Blue Line. Though one might think I'm a Rowan Akinson fan and I do enjoy his comedy. I can't say I'm a big fan of Mr. Bean. Though I did laugh hysterically at Both Johnny English movies.

..which led me to believe you were making light of the OP, and totally ignoring the topic. Let me assure you, I hold no dislike or animosity towards you or any other catholic. If you have read some of my other posts, you'd know I married into a family of RCs. All wonderful people, BTW. However, I do strongly dislike the RCC for the heretical institution that it is, which is blindly leading people to Hell. As I said, I make no apologies for that.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I wasn't being confrontational. You posted this:



..which led me to believe you were making light of the OP, and totally ignoring the topic.

With a statement like

Did you also laugh hysterically at all the vile history of the RCC that he talked about?

Clearly you meant to be confrontational. And as for my original post I simply was agreeing with Matt Black that I knew who Fry was and that I rather enjoyed some shows he was in. As for not taking the OP seriously. I have and I responded seriously as well. The problem with Fry and you is that there is a lot of misrepresentation going on about the Problem with the Catholic Church which all he provides is inaccurate data like Galileo was tortured for teaching Capernicus model rather than the standard model of the time and so on and so forth. Which leads me to believe that since I did honestly answer the OP this was just a venue to attack Catholics. And the senario I pointed out is not far fetch as we can see this one article from the internet blogosphere.

Left Behind Games CEO Troy Lyndon, whose company went public in February, says the game's Christian themes will grab the audience that didn't mind gore in "The Passion of the Christ." "We've thought through how the Christian right and the liberal left will slam us," says Lyndon. "But megachurches are very likely to embrace this game." Though it will be marketed directly to congregations, Forces will also have a secular ad campaign in gaming magazines.

Imagine: you are a foot soldier in a paramilitary group whose purpose is to remake America as a Christian theocracy, and establish its worldly vision of the dominion of Christ over all aspects of life. You are issued high-tech military weaponry, and instructed to engage the infidel on the streets of New York City. You are on a mission - both a religious mission and a military mission -- to convert or kill Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, gays, and anyone who advocates the separation of church and state - especially moderate, mainstream Christians. Your mission is "to conduct physical and spiritual warfare"; all who resist must be taken out with extreme prejudice. You have never felt so powerful, so driven by a purpose: you are 13 years old. You are playing a real-time strategy video game whose creators are linked to the empire of mega-church pastor Rick Warren, best selling author of The Purpose Driven Life.

.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Again, I am not trying to make this post about Stephen Fry....to me he is merely a voice to criticize the RCC & there have been many. I will add that I personally have no love for the RCC & the day of its extinction would be applauded by me, however there are people who are saved in it despite its own fraudulent claims of being the "One True Church". The only plausible function of the RCC that I can see today is to serve as a competitive model of how not to be a Christian.

The problem anyone faces with any discussion is that you ask us to respond to his rhetoric which contains erronious information that he presents as factual with out a clear understanding of some of the issues he speaks about. It is clear he has a bias. However, it would have been more impressive and would actually require a response if he actually cited some facts rather than spew Rhetoric. If you want clarification on any of the topics he mentions I'll be glad to answer. But in reality its like asking you to comment on Hitchens anti-God Rhetoric. You would probably inform me he is a advid atheist and misrepresents the Christian faith. What else can we say?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

. All wonderful people, BTW. However, I do strongly dislike the RCC for the heretical institution that it is, which is blindly leading people to Hell. As I said, I make no apologies for that.

I have to make comment...or perhaps it is a question. "How does the RCC BLINDLY Lead anyone to hell?"

Upon contact with the Holy Spirit, He convicts you of your sins & he give you the gift of salvation through his Grace. This makes one a new person in Christ. How then does the RCC interfere with this very unavoidable process of salvation? This is a Born Again experience we are discussing, not a RCC ritual!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The problem anyone faces with any discussion is that you ask us to respond to his rhetoric which contains erronious information that he presents as factual with out a clear understanding of some of the issues he speaks about. It is clear he has a bias. However, it would have been more impressive and would actually require a response if he actually cited some facts rather than spew Rhetoric. If you want clarification on any of the topics he mentions I'll be glad to answer. But in reality its like asking you to comment on Hitchens anti-God Rhetoric. You would probably inform me he is a advid atheist and misrepresents the Christian faith. What else can we say?

Clearly he is making some very provocative statements...and they are meant to agitate the RCC & indeed bring casual believers out of faith with them. I also agree that his next diatribe could be the Baptists, although he would probably attack the Anglicans 1st, so we would have to wait in line.

I was just curious to see the reactions on the board.... Frey is quite an outspoken & interesting individual. I did not know he was an atheist , dont recall him publicly stating that in his remarks.

 

[Baptist4life]

I believe that any truly born again Christian will leave the RCC. As a matter of fact, there are some on here that have done so.

By "blindly leading people to Hell" I mean that someone entrenched in the RCC, like my wife's family, is "blind" to the Truth of the Gospel. My BIL has no clue as to what the Gospel is...he's been a cradle catholic his whole life, as have most of my in-laws, and trusts fully in the RCC, Mary, the Pope, etc. to TRY to get him to Heaven. He's BLIND to the Truth. He's probably the most devout catholic I know, yet NEVER reads a Bible, and puts his trust in the RCC....BLINDLY.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I have to make comment...or perhaps it is a question. "How does the RCC BLINDLY Lead anyone to hell?"

Upon contact with the Holy Spirit, He convicts you of your sins & he give you the gift of salvation through his Grace. This makes one a new person in Christ. How then does the RCC interfere with this very unavoidable process of salvation? This is a Born Again experience we are discussing, not a RCC ritual!

You make a good point. I believe EWF you hold to TULIP though you don't go to extremes such as the Supralapsarians do. In which case, being that all humanity is Totally Depraved which to the non-extremists no one can come to God save God initiates by divine decree from before Creation the changing of that human heart. Which indicates that apart from divine intervention man's natural state is that he will go to Hell. Therefore he cannot be led to hell. The opposite therefore holds true man must be led to heaven by Divine assistance.
Also there is Unconditional Election. By Divine Decree from before the creation God has chosen men whom to save which means that those he wants to save from their natural state (going to hell) and provide his assistance by pre-emptively regenerating them into a new life so that they can actually have a "saving faith" and be brought to heaven. This election isn't based on anything that stems from the individual but has its origins on the divine decree. What goes hand in hand with this aspect is "the perserverance of the saints" which the Saints who are elected no matter what state or condition in life they may find themselves will continue in the saving faith all the way to the end because they can do not else since they are new regenerated creatures and will act accordingly.
Since as Calvin says

we arrive at the knowledge that God saves whom he wills of his mere good pleasure

It does not therefore Matter whether one is Catholic or Baptist because salvation is reliant on God's good pleasure.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I believe that any truly born again Christian will leave the RCC. As a matter of fact, there are some on here that have done so.

By "blindly leading people to Hell" I mean that someone entrenched in the RCC, like my wife's family, is "blind" to the Truth of the Gospel. My BIL has no clue as to what the Gospel is...he's been a cradle catholic his whole life, as have most of my in-laws, and trusts fully in the RCC, Mary, the Pope, etc. to TRY to get him to Heaven. He's BLIND to the Truth. He's probably the most devout catholic I know, yet NEVER reads a Bible, and puts his trust in the RCC....BLINDLY.

Roman Catholicism is a great safety net or so some believe. When I was a Catholic, the only thing I really had to do is know an "act of contrition" its really a prayer stating in contrition that I was sorry for my sins. So I could Steal, Rob & Rape but after saying that ....the caveat is sincerely say the AOC, my sins were washed away & I could be in Heaven. Today I consider it a forum of Cheap & Bogus Religion and if you haven't been saved, grown a conscience & sincerely tried to turn your life around (and also instruct people on Christ & the Christian Life) then you are still just a lousy reprobate & your going to hell.

Now I have two stages of people in my own household. First my wife, who shuns all formal religion ...principally because she has been hurt by a number of charliton Pastors so she has thrown it out of her life. Now she believes in Christ but is frozen in not studying Christianity. I'm almost positive that she has been saved but she is in the condition of a backslider. If I can find a good church, one like my friend pastors in Kentucky, she will turn around & embrace Christianity.

My son, well he is busy sowing wild oats. He is 21 & he has no true Manly Maturity. I know that he has not had a intervention with the Holy Spirit ....he is probably as close to an agnostic as one can be at this point. So this house is Christian but very lax & carnal (even secular in that nobody goes to church but me)

Thats how allot of Catholics are. Or they are Pietistic--they go to church each Sunday, do all the ritualistic things there church teaches, steps the steps of the 7 Sacraments......& nothing ever penetrates. Its akin to a rock that sits in the water for hundreds of years & when taken out & cracked in two, its still dry (Got that from Godfather III, LOL). Thank God they have their ACT OF CONTRITION (& hopefully they wont get hit by a bus).

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Roman Catholicism is a great safety net or so some believe. When I was a Catholic, the only thing I really had to do is know an "act of contrition" its really a prayer stating in contrition that I was sorry for my sins. So I could Steal, Rob & Rape but after saying that ....the caveat is sincerely say the AOC, my sins were washed away & I could be in Heaven. Today I consider it a forum of Cheap & Bogus Religion and if you haven't been saved, grown a conscience & sincerely tried to turn your life around (and also instruct people on Christ & the Christian Life) then you are still just a lousy reprobate & your going to hell.

Now I have two stages of people in my own household. First my wife, who shuns all formal religion ...principally because she has been hurt by a number of charliton Pastors so she has thrown it out of her life. Now she believes in Christ but is frozen in not studying Christianity. I'm almost positive that she has been saved but she is in the condition of a backslider. If I can find a good church, one like my friend pastors in Kentucky, she will turn around & embrace Christianity.

My son, well he is busy sowing wild oats. He is 21 & he has no true Manly Maturity. I know that he has not had a intervention with the Holy Spirit ....he is probably as close to an agnostic as one can be at this point. So this house is Christian but very lax & carnal (even secular in that nobody goes to church but me)

Thats how allot of Catholics are. Or they are Pietistic--they go to church each Sunday, do all the ritualistic things there church teaches, steps the steps of the 7 Sacraments......& nothing ever penetrates. Its akin to a rock that sits in the water for hundreds of years & when taken out & cracked in two, its still dry (Got that from Godfather III, LOL). Thank God they have their ACT OF CONTRITION (& hopefully they wont get hit by a bus).

Lets be honest EWF for many Catholics this can be true but not for all. Confession isn't about freeing you up to sin some more. Its about what James says when he says if you want to be healed confess your sins to one another. Sin effects the sinner and everyone in contact with the sinner and affect the Church that sinner belongs to the sinner, those he affected and the Church need to be healed of that sin so that we can continue in the faith trying our best to sin no more.