RCC kills everyone in Europe

GraceSAVES,

I guess there is a way for someone that is "already Catholic" to swallow all these murderous acts as "acceptable" by demonizing the victims to the point that you "feel good" about the atrocities of the RCC in the dark ages.

Do you say the SAME of the cardinals tortured by the Pope and cast over the sides of his papal warship??

Is there "any limit" to the slaughter beyond which "you" will not seek to defend the monsterous acts???

Just curious. I would have thought that more modern, more enlightened Catholics would actually have condemned such deeds done by the RCC in the dark ages.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob --

Maybe you should find the Cathars, the Albegenes, the Arians, and all the other assorted heretics of all time and ask them what they think of the Church's program to eliminate those who taught soul damning heresies. Perhaps if you can get them to stop screaming long enough, they will look you in the eye and tell you that they wish the Church had acted sooner and with more force so that they had not been tricked into hell by purveyors of deceit using words as smooth as oil.

As the caretaker of souls, the Church has a responsibility to both warn the pagans and punish the disobedient in the fold who are leading others into perdition. Alas, She is doing neither right now....and I have no doubt hell has been more filled in the 20th century than any other century in the past.

 

CathConvert -

I appreciate your being honest on that point.

You are surely right that the RCC used that very same logic to rationalize the monsterous cruelty she practiced in the dark ages.

I have little doubt that she viewed the horrors she inflicted on victim after victim - in slaughter after slaughter as "kind" by contrast to the God that she preached.

You have made the point well.

It is worth saving for my files.

Thanks again.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I wish you guys would realize that all you are doing is casting pearls before swine. Bob could care less about truth vs fiction, he's shown that over and over now.

You know what they say about answering a fool according to their folly!


LaRae

 

Bob,

Please look at what I quoted from you; now look at how you responded. Point made.

 

Chap.18


HEB 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but
having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and
confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
HEB 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a
country.
HEB 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they
came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
HEB 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly:
wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for
them a city.

The eleventh chapter of Hebrews is all about faith. It is about the faith of those who believed God's promises and ordered there lives accordingly. They did not actually see the establishment of these things that God had promised, but they lived their lives as though they were sure of their establishment, thus proving their faith. It was this kind of faith that made them pilgrims and strangers on the earth. God's people do not live for the here and now of this world, but by the promises of God for the future. God's people are looking for a country, or kingdom, but it is not one of this world, but an heavenly one. For this reason, "God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city".
Those who are Christ's are pilgrims and strangers in this world. Who ever heard of a country or kingdom that just handed over the rule of it's people to a stranger. Would we Americans allow communist strangers to come in and run our country for us? Of course not. Were not communists were Americans, we are opposed to the principles of communism. Why should Christians, who are pilgrims and strangers in this world, expect the world to allow them to come in and rule their lives? Why should we want to rule their lives? The only time that Christianity will be allowed to rule in this world, will be when Christianity has become a part of this world. We are either of this world, or we are not. We cannot be both of this world and of God's kingdom here on earth. Christianity that seeks political power in this world, is apostate Christianity.

REV 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the
first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
REV 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out
of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
REV 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the
tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be
his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
REV 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be
no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more
pain: for the former things are passed away.
REV 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.
And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
REV 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning
and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the
water of life freely.
REV 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his
God, and he shall be my son.

This earth is passing away, along with all that is in it. Soon Christ will return and create a new heaven, and a new earth. The new Jerusalem will come down from God out of heaven and be established forever. This is the Jerusalem of the new covenant, it will forever be the capital of the new heaven and the new earth. God Himself will dwell with His people, and shall wipe away all tears, and sorrow, and pain. There will be no death in the new heaven and earth, for all those who are there will have chosen life over death, that is Christ over the things of this present world. This is what awaits all of those who love His appearing.
The old covenant nation and kingdom of Israel was established through the faith of those who depended upon God's miraculous leading. They believed on God's promises and waited upon them, living their lives as though His promises were sure to come about. God's faithful in this new covenant era will do likewise. Christ has promised to come again and establish His literal kingdom here on earth. He has commissioned His followers to preach the gospel unto all the world and then the end shall come. We are to live our lives as though God's promises are sure, doing the work God has given us diligently until His appearing.
It was God who established the old covenant nation and kingdom of Israel. The only part that man played in it's establishment was to cooperate with God by believing and obeying His promises and commands. The same holds true today, for those who are awaiting the establishment of Christ's literal kingdom here on earth. There are many examples in the old testament of what happened when mere men tried to bring about God's promises in their own way. When Abraham and Sarah tried to bring about God's promise to them of a son by their own understanding, the results were disastrous. They caused themselves, all those involved, and those around them great pain and discomfort for many years.
When the children of Israel lost their opportunity to enter the promised land because of a lack of faith, they decided that they would go ahead and take it anyway against God's command. The results were devastating. They suffered great loss and were completely routed by their enemies. Those who claim to be God's people must believe his promises and act accordingly. They must carry out His plans and instructions as they are given if they are to expect the results that God promises.

HEB 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of
unbelief, in departing from the living God.
HEB 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of
you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
HEB 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our
confidence stedfast unto the end;
HEB 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your
hearts, as in the provocation.
HEB 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came
out of Egypt by Moses.
HEB 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that
had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
HEB 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but
to them that believed not?
HEB 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
HEB 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into
his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

God has a plan. He has given instruction and guidance to His people. If they will believe and accept their commission, and live their lives as though God's promises are sure, then the results will be just as God has promised them to be. We are commissioned to preach the gospel unto all the world and by faith to leave the results with God. When the work has been finished, and all have made their decision, then the Lord will return and establish His kingdom forever, just as He has promised. However, if we grow impatient, and begin to devise our own plans for bringing about the kingdom of God on earth, they will miserably fail as the scriptures clearly point out.
Faith involves waiting upon the Lord to fulfill His promises. Those who are not willing to wait upon the Lord and fulfill His commands in the way He has given them, do not have faith. These people will not enter into God's rest, which is, obeying Him by faith. They will also not enter into the promised land, seeing that they do not have faith. It was unbelief that kept the children of Israel from entering the old covenant promised land, and it will be unbelief that keeps the new covenant children of Israel from entering the new heaven and the new earth. Now as then, their are many who profess to be God's children. It remains to be seen who will wait upon the Lord in faith, carrying out the gospel commission, and who will impatiently abandon the gospel commission and seek the aid of the world to gain what they selfishly desire.
God's new covenant nation here on earth are those who are giving the gospel message to the world, preparing them for Christ's soon coming. They are composed of those of all nations and kindred's and people who have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. They love His appearing and are eagerly awaiting and hastening it by their preaching. On the other hand there are many professed Christians that are abandoning their faith and God given commission. These apostate Christians are leaning less and less upon the power of the Holy Spirit and more and more upon the power of the state to get what they selfishly desire.
Unwilling to suffer for their faith, they will and are enlisting the power of the state. This is not only to protect themselves from persecution, but also to establish themselves in authority and enforce their dogmas upon all. They want to be exalted upon the earth as God's chosen people, only not in accordance with God's plans, but rather in accordance with their own selfish desires. They are in the same condition that the Jews who rejected Christ were in, in the days of His visitation. They believed themselves to be God's chosen people and selfishly, even jealously promoted themselves as such. However, when Christ appeared and revealed the way of the cross to them, they were not willing to suffer the humiliation of following their God, desiring instead only the exaltation, therefor they rejected their Savior. If they had been willing to follow Christ and suffer for His names sake, then they would have been exalted by God himself at His second coming. The same holds true today for those who will follow Christ regardless of the consequences in the here and now.

MAT 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for
theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
MAT 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and
shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
MAT 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven:
for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Salvation is by faith. Christ says that you can expect to be persecuted in this world if you will follow Him, but not to worry, this world is passing away. Faith does not need to be backed up by the arm of the state. Faith can not be brought about through the power of the state. To the contrary, faith can only be developed apart from all the powers of this earth through the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
Those who are seeking to exalt Christ are following His commission in the way that He specified in word and example when here on earth. Those who are seeking to exalt self, are seeking the aid of the state to make their religion the established religion. They are seeking the protection of the law of the land, so as not to suffer persecution, and to establish themselves in this world as the authority. These two classes of professed Christians will become more clearly developed as the lines are drawn, and decisions are made for self exaltation, or Christ's exaltation. It is the hope of the writer that you will choose to exalt Christ by your own submission to Him and His commission.


JOH 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said,
Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify
thee:
JOH 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give
eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
JOH 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true
God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
JOH 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which
thou gavest me to do.
JOH 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory
which I had with thee before the world was.
JOH 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out
of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept
thy word.
JOH 17:7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are
of thee.
JOH 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they
have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they
have believed that thou didst send me.
JOH 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou
hast given me; for they are thine.
JOH 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified
in them.
JOH 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I
come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast
given me, that they may be one, as we are.
JOH 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those
that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of
perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
JOH 17:13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that
they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
JOH 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because
they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
JOH 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that
thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
JOH 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
JOH 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
JOH 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them
into the world.
JOH 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be
sanctified through the truth.
JOH 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall
believe on me through their word;
JOH 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee,
that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast
sent me.
JOH 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may
be one, even as we are one:
JOH 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and
that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou
hast loved me.
JOH 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me
where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou
lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
JOH 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known
thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
JOH 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that
the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.


Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

This is precisely the reasoning that RC tormentors and torturers used when collecting their victims and inflicting the most inhuman torments upon them.

I have not done anything but point that out.

As Dr. Carroll of EWTN points out - they would have done the same to Billy Graham for HIS preaching - if they had had the chance.

In Christ,

Bob

 

This is precisely the reasoning that RC tormentors and torturers used when collecting their victims and inflicting the most inhuman torments upon them.

I have not done anything but point that out.

As Dr. Carroll of EWTN points out - they would have done the same to Billy Graham for HIS preaching - if they had had the chance.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Tell me Bob. Do you welcome everyone to your door. How do you feel about governments punishing their subjects. Did the Pope kill the priscillians like your arguement yesterday tries to imply? Bob, you will take and distortion and twist it some more because you are obsessed with Catholicism and deep down you are truly afraid you made the wrong choice in leaving. You fight against it with an ultra ego hoping you can make the gates of hell actually prevail. They never will. You are a part of the gates of hell Bob. How does it feel. There are actually two religions in Christianity with a great amount of unity in both. Catholicism and Anti-Catholicism. You are a part of the Anti-Christ Bob. V. 6.66 in John's Gospel is you all the way.

Blessings.

 

Whether I welcome all people to my door - has nothing to do with torturing people to death. OR of demonizing the victims so that one "Feels better about the evil deeds done to them".

I am sure we all agree.

Hopefully we all agree to utterly condemn the monsterous acts done in the dark ages by the RCC.

And if you wish to find "others" who did monsterous deeds as well - then I would also agree - hopefully we condemn them just as we do the wicked actions of the RCC in the dark ages.

It is actually a very simple concept. Condemn the wicked acts of slaughter, murder and torture.

Frankly, I don't see why this is causing a problem.

In Christ,

Bob

 

No, we won't do that Bob because the point is to continually single out one religious group and constantly condemn them while tactfully ignoring other injustices by protestants and similar cult offshoots. We won't talk about their "monsterous deeds" because nobody wants to hear about them.

 

I see - you can not possibly be expected to condemn the slaughter and torture of millions of Christians over a period of centuries IF there were some Christians ever killed over a period of decades by someone else!??

As I said - I did not expect to find such foxhole entrenchment among modern day christians in defense of slaughter, torture and atrocity.

I thought "most were finally past that" habbit of defending "the monsters" and atrocities of history.

I guess not - eh?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Why not step over to the light.

Here you are free to condemn "one monster" and "one torment" and "one atrocity" as well as "the slaughter of millions".

None of it needs to be "defended" on this side.

Here in the light - the darkness is bad. EVEN if the darkness slaughters millions of Christians.... still bad. If it slaughters only one and is done by a 75 year old retired man - still "bad".

Come on over to the light. You will love the freedom to call atrocity what it is and to find that God really does not "approve" of it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

You made it clear, we shouldn't take the time to condemn the actions of tiny cults, it would just be a waste of time I guess.

 

"According to a special Adventist World Report released in December 1994, at least 3,000 people died in the slaughter at Mugunaro, and close to 1,000 were killed at the Adventist university in Gitwe."

Odd that you want to excuse the slaughter by pastors of the SDA.

As I said in the other thread, it was my hope that you would provide us with a shining example of how this sort of scandal should be handled.

You have disappointed me yet again.

 

I believe Bod has already addressed that, such scandals and injustices are justified by the nature of the fact that they don't exceed "millions" and that the abuse has only been around for a short time since the group has only been around for a short time.

 

Odd that you want to excuse the slaughter by pastors of the SDA.


I noted on "that other thread" that some had "pretended to have interest" in the case of a 75 year old man who was among those that supposedly aided the bad guys in that slaughter.

Since so much of your focus was on that "one" 75 year old man (a retired pastor)to discover that he was an SDA - and in fact a local official in the SDA African church in that area - (and about to retire) - I showed the AUGUST 2003 update published to the world by the SDA church where they DID identify "error" and were "FREE" to call sin - sin.

The quote is provided on that thread for those that were "really interested" and of course those just "pretending interest" doubtless have not been back to the thread for a while.

But should your pretended interest ever become "genuine" the quote is still there.

And AS I point out even on this thread - the 'contrast' between the RC practice here of "defending the monsters" vs the practice of "calling sin by its right name EVEN if it is done by one 75 year old man" - is "glaringly obvious".

No attempt was made to "demonize the victims".

No attempt was made to "defend the evil doers".

No attempt was made to "rationalize for torture, slaughter and inhumane treatment".

No attempt was made to "avoid the specific apology".

No attempt was made to "contrast real Christian doctrine with the actions of evil doers".

No attempt was made to cover darness with light. To call "evil good".

Go see the quote if you are still even "pretending" to have an interest.

And soooooooo.

I offer again - come on over "to the light". Where you are "free" to call evil - a sin EVEN if it is done by ONE 75 year old man - whose "aid" is in question - aiding the "evil doers".

And also EVEN if it is the slaughter of millions
by armies of armed men - as is the case of the RCC in the dark ages. EVEN then - we are free to call "extermination -- evil" and "slauther -- evil" and we find no need to "spread light over the evil deeds".

You will be free in the light.

Come on over.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Though the "deeds" of that 75 year old man are in fact horrible as the SDA article shows - I am glad that at least we have this "one" ray of light - it provides the perfect contrast to the RCC practice of covering centuries of slaughter and their modern day demonizing of the victims and contrasts that with freedom to clearly issue condemnation of crimes EVEN if the crime included that ONE 75 year old SDA.

In that contrast there is sufficient truth for anyone with genuine interest in right and light!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,

The numbers simply do not agree. Some historians say "thousands," while others say "millions." Who is correct? You pick the higher number, and then use that "assumption" as fact, and then say that we are worse because we've done "more."

That's illogical. Fox's Book of Martyrs is unreliable at best, and many statistical figures have been shown to be ridiculously high. Further, if sin is sin, your "one" old man, and the Catholic Church's "x" number are equally wrong. The difference, as I see it, is not in the numbers. The difference is that you do your very best to make this man out to be as un-SDA as possible (making COUNTLESS references to his age, his near retirement, his being in hostile Africa, etc), but when it comes to the Catholic Church, if a person simply claims to be Catholic, you blame THE ENTIRE INSTITUTION.

Bob, if the Catholic Church is guilty, then the SDA Church is guilty. If the CATHOLIC INDIVIDUAL is guilty, then the SDA INDIVIDUAL is guilty.

Stop the double standards.

 

#1. I gave a post - showing by the "exterminated people groups" and the centuries in which the monsterous acts took place - how the "millions" can be reasonably determined.

You simply "ignore it" as the RCC faith needs history to be stated.

#2. EVEN RC historians like EWTN's Dr. Carroll "admit" that this is not "peculiar" to one people group - one strange people group - rather they claim outright that Billy Graham himself would be tortured for preaching as he does today - in the dark ages. The "general" idea is supported EVEN by informed RC historians.

#3. I "showed" in the SDA published statement of August 2003 - the huge "contrast" between the SDA published position about one 75 year old that in some way "aided" the slaughter - vs the RC position of "not apologizing for ANY specific action" as Dr. Carroll points out.

You "could not have" a greater contrast.

The RC response on this message board has been to "ignore the elephant" so far. And that is "instructive" to any Christian reading the thread --in itself.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob, why do you keep saying, "ONE 75 YEAR OLD MAN"?

Why do you keep insinuating that he is only guilty of killing one person?

THOUSANDS were hacked to death!

Did this ONE MAN kill them all?

Or did more than one man do it?

It "TOOK PLACE IN AN SDA CHURCH".

Did all the SDA members "step outside" while the people were hacked to bits?

You need to start being honest here.

BTW, your SDA "quote" from 2003 was "SEVERAL YEARS AFTER THE KILLINGS".

Why did they "wait so long"?

Why don't you admit the truth here?