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RCC kills everyone in Europe

MikeS

New Member
Originally posted by BobRyan:
As you can see - I have had that "RCC admits to exterminations" file around for a couple of years.

Interesting that when confronted with the huge subject of a massive institution in the dark ages admitting to "exterminating" its victims - the cogent reply is "that report is a couple of years old isnt that funny??".

So... Still waiting for that objective, detailed cogent reply to the salient points of those RC reports.

In Christ,

Bob
Bob,

As long as you maintain the Inquisition killed tens of millions we're too far apart to have any kind of rational discussion.

In fact, according to current historical scholarship, the Inquisition over its hundreds of years killed about as many people as are killed in the West in one day's worth of abortions. What's the biggest institution in complete opposition to abortion today, Bob? If your primary focus was concern about the loss of innocent life, you'd be supporting the Catholic Church with every ounce of your being.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Catholics in the U.S predominantly vote for the party that is pro-abortion. (Food for thought).

But back to our topic. I am "still waiting" for the pile of "catholic denials" that have been tossed onto this thread - to address the RCC's own language about "exterminating" its victims during the dark ages AND about "controlling" countries like Spain - and thereby participating in not only its LOCAL exterminations but also in the exterminations carried on by "its agents".

Those actions are "not" described even by the RCC sources quoted as "isoalate" or "incidental".

The RC efforts of CathConvert to "demonize the victims" as the RC quotes show the RCC doing in the dark ages -- and your own efforts to "minimize the term EXTERMINATION" during the centuries long work that the RC sources describe - does not constitute a "Christian" response to massive atrocity.

Still waiting for that "detailed", "objective", and "cogent" RC response to CATHOLIC sources quoted above.

In Christ,

Bob
 

MikeS

New Member
Originally posted by BobRyan:
Still waiting for that "detailed", "objective", and "cogent" RC response to CATHOLIC sources quoted above.
Here's my final response to your obsession, for the record:
sleeping_2.gif
sleeping_2.gif
sleeping_2.gif
sleeping_2.gif
 

Kamoroso

New Member
Rom 13:11-14 11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.


1 Cor 15:33-34 33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.


Eph 5:11-16 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,
16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.


1Thes 5:5-8 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
MikeS makes a good point.

Our RC bretheren were apparently "sleeping" in class when their own RC sources covered the material - posted here - showing the Catholic statements on "extermination" in the dark ages.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Still waiting for that cogent RC reply to their own sources as listed above.

(OR possibly their own sources talking about "exterminating" protestants is of little importance even to modern day Catholics).

In Christ,

Bob
 

Bartimaeus

New Member
Originally posted by LaRae:

You choose what picture to accept about the Catholic Church, you choose what to believe and who to believe. Seems that some are all to eager (ie rabid) to accept the worst possible senario about the Catholic Church.

We do not have to accept any picture. It comes to us in a glossy 2x3 black and white down at the local police precinct about once a month.
The "church" as you want to call her, has been a shining example of conversion by sword. Kingdom builders are bloody killers, historical in fact. Catholic and/or her babies, the protestants (they had a good teacher).
Lastly the only rabid thing I can see lately is the lust for young men. Guess where we find most of that?
The best witness against the Roman's has been and always will be her own. Just watch.

------Bart
 

Ray Berrian

New Member
If I recall correctly it was in the northeast of our nation that women were killed for allegedly being witches. Now we hear of another kind of 'mortal sin' committed, not by the faithful laity but via the quasi-spiritual leaders around Boston. Why not have some more add-on theology and have the pope speak forth a new ex cathedra and let the clergy find the Biblical soul-mate that the Lord suggested in I Timothy 3:2.

The rule of forbidding the priests to marry must be still important to the on going tradition of the church, at least more important than losing those mega-millions of dollars in the litigation against them.
 

thessalonian

New Member
Ray said: "If I recall correctly it was in the northeast of our nation that women were killed for allegedly being witches. Now we hear of another kind of 'mortal sin' committed, not by the faithful laity but via the quasi-spiritual leaders around Boston. Why not have some more add-on theology and have the pope speak forth a new ex cathedra and let the clergy find the Biblical soul-mate that the Lord suggested in I Timothy 3:2."


Ray,

Doesn't 1 Cor 7 say celibacy is a calling. Seems like Jesus says that those who choose him over family in the Gospels should forgo a wife. Are there celibates in your Church who choose this as a life.

Matthew 19:29
"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.

Or is this asking men to abandon their families?

According to you these spiritual leaders may just be Christians who didn't give up their sin when they got saved so God will just take them home early. Perhaps that is what happened with that priest that God murdered in prison a couple of weeks ago. (according to your theology). I dare not judge his soul.

Witch burning. Seems that was a bigger problem with Protestantism than Catholicism. The Puritains were the main culprits in the Northeast. It is my understanding that in Europe the Calinists burned over 100,000 women suspected of being witches. King James was even known to have a witch burning fetish. Now I wonder how they determined all these women were witches. Really manly occupation witch burning is. King James didn't die young from what I understand so what are the implications of that. He wasn't really saved? What of that Bible that has his name on it?

"The rule of forbidding the priests to marry must be still important to the on going tradition of the church, at least more important than losing those mega-millions of dollars in the litigation against them."

A married priesthood is not the problem Ray. The priests who have committed these acts tend to be homosexual. That means they don't like women Ray. Get it. Or are you with the Episcopalians and Presbyterians in suggesting that gays should get married?

Gotta get time to get back to that OSAS stuff.

PS. How are protestant Churches going to deal with the problem of child molesting pastors. I haven't heard anything and it seems like there is quite an ongoing problem as every time I bring up this website there are more recent cases.

www.reformation.com

Don't Protestants have married clergy. By your logic then there shouldn't be a problem. But it appears there is.
Blessings

[ September 15, 2003, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Some Catholic responders "claim" that they can not "understand" the words of the Catholic sources being quoted in these articles. I ask the objective reader to "see" if they can "understand" the words.

And look for things like "Secret archives", look for "forbidden books" and look for "attempts to blaim the tortures of the inquisitions on local civil authorities" and how the Pope himself rejects such rubbish about civil authorities.

Here we go again - watch for "details".

There are credible Catholics who maintain integrity by admitting to the obvious history of the past and deal with the issue head-on instead of dodging it.

Consider the following news stories from Vatican City.

-------------------------------



Vatican Hosts Inquisition Symposium

By CANDICE HUGHES


.c The Associated Press

VATICAN CITY (AP);
The Vatican assembled a blue-ribbon panel of scholars Thursday to examine the Inquisition and declared its readiness to submit the church's darkest institution to the judgment of history.

The three-day symposium is part of the Roman Catholic Church's countdown to 2000. Pope John Paul II wants the church to begin the new millennium with a clear conscience, which means facing up to past sins.

For many people, the Inquisition is one of the church's worst transgressions. For centuries, ecclesiastical ``thought police'' tried, tortured and burned people at the stake for heresy and other crimes.

``The church cannot cross the threshold of the new millennium without pressing its children to purify themselves in repentance for their errors, infidelity, incoherence,'' Cardinal Roger Etchegaray said, opening the conference.

The inquisitors went after Protestants, Jews, Muslims and presumed heretics. They persecuted scientists like Galileo. They banned the Bible in anything but Latin, which few ordinary people could read.

The Inquisition began in the 13th century and lasted into the 19th. An index of banned books endured even longer, until 1966. And it was 1992 before the church rehabilitated Galileo, condemned for saying the Earth wasn't the center of the universe.

The symposium, which gathers experts from inside and outside the church, is the Vatican's first critical look at the church's record of repression.

Among other things, it will give scholars a chance to compare notes on what they've found in the secret Vatican archives on the Inquisition, which the Holy See only recently opened.

``The church is not afraid to submit its past to the judgment of history,'' said Etchegaray, a Frenchman who leads the Vatican's Commission on the Grand Jubilee.

Closed to the public and press, the symposium is not expected to produce any definitive statement from the Vatican on the Inquisition. That is expected in 2000 as part of the grand ``mea culpa'' at the start of Christianity's third millennium.

The great question is whether the pontiff will ask forgiveness for the sins of the church's members, as it did with the Holocaust, or for the sins of the church itself. Unlike the Holocaust, the Inquisition was a church initiative authorized by the popes themselves.

Etchegaray on Thursday swept aside the idea that it can be seen a series of local campaigns whose excesses might be blamed on secular authorities. There was only one Inquisition, he said, and it was undeniably an ecclesiastical institution.

The pontiff may give a hint as to his thinking on Saturday, when he meets with participants in the conference.

About 50 scholars from Europe, the United States and Latin America are taking part.

AP-NY-10-29-98 1403EST
======================================================


Catholic Church says must own up for Inquisition

By Alessandra Galloni


VATICAN CITY, Oct 29 (Reuters)
- The Vatican on Thursday said it had to take responsibility for one of the darkest eras in Roman Catholic church history and not lay blame for the Inquisition on civil prosecutors.

Cardinal Roger Etchegaray, head of the Vatican's main committee for the year 2000, opened a three-day symposium on the Inquisition saying it was time to re-examine the work of the special court the church set up in 1233 to curb heresy.

Etchegaray said some scholars claimed there were several inquisitions: one in Rome, which worked directly under the Holy See's control, and others in Spain and in Portugal which were often aided by the local civil courts.

``We cannot ignore the fact that this (attempt to distinguish between inquisitions) has allowed some to make apologetic arguments and lay responsibility for what Iberian tribunals did onto civil authorities,'' he said.

``The fact that the Spanish and Portuguese crowns...had powers of intervention...on inquisitory tribunals does not change the ecclesiastical character of the institution,'' he said.

Pope Gregory IX created the Inquisition to help curb heresy, but church officials soon began to count on civil authorities to fine, imprison and even torture heretics.

One of the Inquisition's best known victims was the astronomer Galileo, condemned for claiming the earth revolved around the sun.

The Inquisition reached its height in the 16th century to counter the Reformation. The department later became the Holy Office and its successor now is called the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which controls the orthodoxy of Catholic teaching.

Some of the conclusions of the international symposium, which ends on Saturday, could be included in a major document in which the church is expected to ask forgiveness for its past errors as part of celebrations for the year 2000.

The church ``cannot pass into the new millennium without urging its sons to purify themselves, through penitence, of its errors, its infidelities and its incoherence...,'' Father Georges Cottier, a top Vatican theologian and head of the theological commission for the year 2000, told the symposium.

Etchegaray said the conference could also draw on examples that scholars had been able to examine since January, when the Vatican opened secret files.

The archives also opened the infamous Index of Forbidden Books which Roman Catholics were not allowed to read or possess on pain of excommunication. Even the bible was on the blacklist.

Pope John Paul has said in several documents and speeches that the Church needs to assume responsibility for the Inquisition, which was responsible for the forced conversion of Jews as well as the torture and killing of heretics.

While there may have been mitigating historical factors for the behaviour of some Catholics, the Pope has said this did not prevent the church from expressing regret for the wrongs of its members in some periods of history.

He initiated the procedure that led to the rehabilitation of Galileo, completed in 1992.

19:01 10-29-98

How refreshing that there are some Catholics willing to place the atrocities in a more "Christian light" rather than trying to defend or minimalize monstrous acts of atrocity - or worse - continuing to demonize the victims in "true dark ages" spirit.
Trying2Understand comments
Tell me, Bob, do you not think that it is the responsibilty of the Church to call on those in civil authority who are members of the Church to defend the faith?
There is just no "reaching" some people EVEN with quotes of their own church leaders.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Trying2Understand comments

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tell me, Bob, do you not think that it is the responsibilty of the Church to call on those in civil authority who are members of the Church to defend the faith?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did you really "miss" the part where the article states that the zenith of the dark crimes committed by the church in the inquisition was in response to the rise of prostantism. They were trying to kill Catholics that were leaving the RCC and forming non-Catholic Christian organizations - and getting burned at the stake for doing so.

Even Dr. Carroll of EWTN admits that Billy Graham himself would be burned/tortured to death under those RC rules used in the dark ages.

In Christ,

Bob
 
Bob, Candice Hughes of the Associated Press and Alessandra Galloni of Reuters do not speak for the Church.

They are reports writing a story for the newspaper.

What they have written is their opinion.

You confuse their words with that of the Vatican.

For the record, what grade are you in? High school? Middle shcool?
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Since our Catholic bretheren are "pretending" to be confused as they read statements from Pope John Paul quoted below AND from Cardinal Roger Etchegaray, head of the Vatican's main committee of scholars looking at the subject that "our Catholic bretheren here hope doesn't exist"...

I repost the Catholic council's statements on "real" extermination, real torture and real burning at the stake. I also repost and "add bold" for those Catholic sources being quoted and "ignored" so far by the RC posts on this.


Originally posted by BobRyan:
Catholic apologists often argue that the RCC isn't accountable for the Inquisition, since the state carried out the torturing and the executions. It was the RCC who defined these people as "heretics", however, and the RCC handed them over to the state (John 19:11).

We know from the decrees of Popes and councils that the RCC viewed itself as having authority over the state.

The Fourth Lateran Council, for example, the ecumenical council that dogmatized transubstantiation, declared (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/lat4-c3.html):

”Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that
whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the
supreme pontiff [the Pope], that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those
who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land.


Other councils, such as Vienna, issued anti-Semitic decrees that ordered the persecution of Jews. The persecution of other groups, such as the Waldensians, was also ordered by the RCC.
For example, Pope Innocent VIII issued a bull in 1487 ordering that people "rise up in arms against" and "tread under foot" the Waldensians.
Roman Catholic and former Jesuit Peter de Rosa writes in Vicars of Christ (Crown Publishers, 1988), "Of eighty popes
in a line from the thirteenth century on not one of them disapproved of the theology and apparatus of the Inquisition[/b]. On the contrary, one after another added his own cruel touches to the workings of this deadly machine."

The Catholic historian von Dollinger writes in The Pope and the Council,
"From 1200 to 1500 the long series of Papal ordinances on the Inquisition, ever increasing in severity and cruelty, and their whole policy towards
heresy, runs on without a break. It is a rigidly consistent system of legislation; every Pope confirms and improves upon the devices of his predecessor....It was only the absolute dictation of the Popes, and the notion of their infallibility in all questions of Evangelical morality, that made the Christian world...[accept] the Inquisition, which contradicted the simplest principles of Christian justice and love to our neighbor, and would have been
rejected with universal horror in the ancient Church."


Consider the following news stories from late last year.

Vatican Hosts Inquisition Symposium

By CANDICE HUGHES


.c The Associated Press

VATICAN CITY (AP) –
The Vatican assembled a blue-ribbon panel of scholars Thursday to examine the Inquisition and declared its readiness to submit the church's darkest institution to the judgment of history.

The three-day symposium is part of the Roman Catholic Church's countdown to 2000. Pope John Paul II wants the church to begin the new millennium with a clear conscience, which means facing up to past sins.

For many people, the Inquisition is one of the church's worst transgressions. For centuries, ecclesiastical ``thought police'' tried, tortured and burned people at the stake for heresy and other crimes.

``The church cannot cross the threshold of the new millennium without pressing its children to purify themselves in repentance for their errors, infidelity, incoherence,'' Cardinal Roger Etchegaray said, opening the conference.

The inquisitors went after Protestants, Jews, Muslims and presumed heretics. They persecuted scientists like Galileo. They banned the Bible in anything but Latin, which few ordinary people could read.

The Inquisition began in the 13th century and lasted into the 19th. An index of banned books endured even longer, until 1966. And it was 1992 before the church rehabilitated Galileo, condemned for saying the Earth wasn't the center of the universe.

The symposium, which gathers experts from inside and outside the church, is the Vatican's first critical look at the church's record of repression.

Among other things, it will give scholars a chance to compare notes on [/b]what they've found in the secret Vatican archives on the Inquisition, which the Holy See only recently opened. [/b]

``The church is not afraid to submit its past to the judgment of history,'' said Etchegaray, a Frenchman who leads the Vatican's Commission on the Grand Jubilee.

Closed to the public and press, the symposium is not expected to produce any definitive statement from the Vatican on the Inquisition. That is expected in 2000 as part of the grand ``mea culpa'' at the start of Christianity's third millennium.

The great question is whether the pontiff will ask forgiveness for the sins of the church's members, as it did with the Holocaust, or for the sins of the church itself. Unlike the Holocaust, the Inquisition was a church initiative authorized by the popes themselves.

Etchegaray on Thursday swept aside the idea that it can be seen a series of local campaigns whose excesses might be blamed on secular authorities. There was only one Inquisition, he said, and it was undeniably an ecclesiastical institution.

The pontiff may give a hint as to his thinking on Saturday, when he meets with participants in the conference.

About 50 scholars from Europe, the United States and Latin America are taking part.

AP-NY-10-29-98 1403EST



Catholic Church says must own up for Inquisition

By Alessandra Galloni


VATICAN CITY, Oct 29 (Reuters) - The Vatican on Thursday said it had to take responsibility for one of the darkest eras in Roman Catholic church history and not lay blame for the Inquisition on civil prosecutors.

Cardinal Roger Etchegaray, head of the Vatican's main committee for the year 2000, opened a three-day symposium on the Inquisition saying it was time to re-examine the work of the special court the church set up in 1233 to curb heresy.

Etchegaray said some scholars claimed there were several Inquisitions: one in Rome, which worked directly under the Holy See's control, and others in Spain and in Portugal which were often aided by the local civil courts.


``We cannot ignore the fact that this (attempt to distinguish between inquisitions) has allowed some to make apologetic arguments and lay responsibility for what Iberian tribunals did
onto civil authorities,'' he said.

``The fact that the Spanish and Portuguese crowns...had powers of intervention...on inquisitory tribunals does not change the ecclesiastical character of the institution,'' he said.

Pope Gregory IX created the Inquisition to help curb heresy, but church officials soon began to count on civil authorities to fine, imprison and even torture heretics.

One of the Inquisition's best known victims was the astronomer Galileo, condemned for claiming the earth revolved around the sun.

The Inquisition reached its height in the 16th century to counter the Reformation. The department later became the Holy Office and its successor now is called the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which controls the orthodoxy of Catholic teaching.

Some of the conclusions of the international symposium, which ends on Saturday, could be included in a major document in which the church is expected to ask forgiveness for its past errors as part of celebrations for the year 2000.

The church ``cannot pass into the new millennium without urging its sons to purify themselves, through penitence, of its errors, its infidelities and its incoherences...,'' Father Georges Cottier, a top Vatican theologian and head of the theological commission for the year 2000, told the symposium.

Etchegaray said the conference could also draw on examples that scholars had been able to examine since January, when the Vatican opened secret files.

The archives also opened the infamous Index of Forbidden Books which Roman Catholics were not allowed to read or possess on pain of excommunication. Even the bible was on the blacklist.

Pope John Paul has said in several documents and speeches that the Church needs to assume responsibility for the Inquisition, which was responsible for the forced conversion of Jews as well as the torture and killing of heretics.

While there may have been mitigating historical factors for the behaviour of some Catholics, the Pope has said this did not prevent the church from expressing regret for the wrongs of its members in some periods of history.

He initiated the procedure that led to the rehabilitation of Galileo, completed in 1992.

19:01 10-29-98
The Cardinal's quote above has been completely ignored ALONG WITH the quotes of the Pope - and a kind of blind-devotee "I only hear if someone else quotes them" repsonse has held sway among our RC brethern.

Is that really the "Christian" response to atrocity, extermination, torture by burning, torture by inquisition etc?

You be the judge.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Among other things, it will give scholars a chance to compare notes on what they've found in the secret Vatican archives on the Inquisition, which the Holy See only recently opened.
Since "some" of our modern day Catholic inquisition "defenders" have tried to argue this was a "good thing" - can they explain why this glorious "ministry" of the RCC in the dark ages is still kept in forbidden, "secret" archives?

What is the reluctance in "fully disclosing" to modern Christianity the "deeds of the dark ages"??

Is "that" secrecy, denial, obfuscation, misdirection and refusal to deal with the "details" the "Christian" response to "atrocity, torture, extermination" and dark crimes of the dark ages?

I guess it is "for some".

In Christ,

Bob
 
A

amixedupmom

Guest
The Dark ages were a time of mystic and skeptaism . No one wanted to advance or learn. Most people didn't have a Bible. And those that had the Bible more than likely twisted it to mean what they needed to mean to assume the power they wished.

God Bless
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
As the quote shows - burning Bibles, placing the Bible on the "forbidden book" list was a practice of the Roman Catholic church during the dark ages.

I suppose there is a way to justify that for some Christians. But most Christians today would not approve of any church burning Bibles no matter how long and convoluted the rational for doing so.

Or are there any pro-Bible-burners still out there?

Any takers?

In Christ,

Bob
 
Originally posted by BobRyan:
I suppose there is a way to justify that for some Christians. But most Christians today would not approve of any church burning Bibles no matter how long and convoluted the rational for doing so.
Question, Bob.

If the words of Scripture have been deliberately changed by someone in order to support their new theology, for the purpose of convincing another of that new theology, is it still the Bible?

A simple yes or no will do.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
``The church is not afraid to submit its past to the judgment of history,'' said Etchegaray, a Frenchman who leads the Vatican's Commission on the Grand Jubilee.

Hard to believe that - given the RC response to their "history" so far.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
[QB]
Vatican Hosts Inquisition Symposium

By CANDICE HUGHES


.c The Associated Press

VATICAN CITY (AP) –
The Vatican assembled a blue-ribbon panel of scholars Thursday to examine the Inquisition and declared its readiness to submit the church's darkest institution to the judgment of history.

The three-day symposium is part of the Roman Catholic Church's countdown to 2000. Pope John Paul II wants the church to begin the new millennium with a clear conscience, which means facing up to past sins.

For many people, the Inquisition is one of the church's worst transgressions. For centuries, ecclesiastical ``thought police'' tried, tortured and burned people at the stake for heresy and other crimes.

``The church cannot cross the threshold of the new millennium without pressing its children to purify themselves in repentance for their errors, infidelity, incoherence,'' Cardinal Roger Etchegaray said, opening the conference.

The inquisitors went after Protestants, Jews, Muslims and presumed heretics. They persecuted scientists like Galileo. They banned the Bible in anything but Latin, which few ordinary people could read.

The Inquisition began in the 13th century and lasted into the 19th. An index of banned books endured even longer, until 1966. And it was 1992 before the church rehabilitated Galileo, condemned for saying the Earth wasn't the center of the universe.

The symposium, which gathers experts from inside and outside the church, is the Vatican's first critical look at the church's record of repression.

Among other things, it will give scholars a chance to compare notes on [/b]what they've found in the secret Vatican archives on the Inquisition, which the Holy See only recently opened. [/b]

``The church is not afraid to submit its past to the judgment of history,'' said Etchegaray, a Frenchman who leads the Vatican's Commission on the Grand Jubilee.

Closed to the public and press, the symposium is not expected to produce any definitive statement from the Vatican on the Inquisition. That is expected in 2000 as part of the grand ``mea culpa'' at the start of Christianity's third millennium.

The great question is whether the pontiff will ask forgiveness for the sins of the church's members, as it did with the Holocaust, or for the sins of the church itself. Unlike the Holocaust, the Inquisition was a church initiative authorized by the popes themselves.

Etchegaray on Thursday swept aside the idea that it can be seen a series of local campaigns whose excesses might be blamed on secular authorities. There was only one Inquisition, he said, and it was undeniably an ecclesiastical institution.

The pontiff may give a hint as to his thinking on Saturday, when he meets with participants in the conference.

About 50 scholars from Europe, the United States and Latin America are taking part.

AP-NY-10-29-98 1403EST



Catholic Church says must own up for Inquisition

By Alessandra Galloni


VATICAN CITY, Oct 29 (Reuters) - The Vatican on Thursday said it had to take responsibility for one of the darkest eras in Roman Catholic church history and not lay blame for the Inquisition on civil prosecutors.

Cardinal Roger Etchegaray, head of the Vatican's main committee for the year 2000, opened a three-day symposium on the Inquisition saying it was time to re-examine the work of the special court the church set up in 1233 to curb heresy.

Etchegaray said some scholars claimed there were several Inquisitions: one in Rome, which worked directly under the Holy See's control, and others in Spain and in Portugal which were often aided by the local civil courts.


``We cannot ignore the fact that this (attempt to distinguish between inquisitions) has allowed some to make apologetic arguments and lay responsibility for what Iberian tribunals did
onto civil authorities,'' he said.

``The fact that the Spanish and Portuguese crowns...had powers of intervention...on inquisitory tribunals does not change the ecclesiastical character of the institution,'' he said.

Pope Gregory IX created the Inquisition to help curb heresy, but church officials soon began to count on civil authorities to fine, imprison and even torture heretics.

One of the Inquisition's best known victims was the astronomer Galileo, condemned for claiming the earth revolved around the sun.

The Inquisition reached its height in the 16th century to counter the Reformation. The department later became the Holy Office and its successor now is called the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which controls the orthodoxy of Catholic teaching.

Some of the conclusions of the international symposium, which ends on Saturday, could be included in a major document in which the church is expected to ask forgiveness for its past errors as part of celebrations for the year 2000.

The church ``cannot pass into the new millennium without urging its sons to purify themselves, through penitence, of its errors, its infidelities and its incoherences...,'' Father Georges Cottier, a top Vatican theologian and head of the theological commission for the year 2000, told the symposium.

Etchegaray said the conference could also draw on examples that scholars had been able to examine since January, when the Vatican opened secret files.

The archives also opened the infamous Index of Forbidden Books which Roman Catholics were not allowed to read or possess on pain of excommunication. Even the bible was on the blacklist.

Pope John Paul has said in several documents and speeches that the Church needs to assume responsibility for the Inquisition, which was responsible for the forced conversion of Jews as well as the torture and killing of heretics.

While there may have been mitigating historical factors for the behaviour of some Catholics, the Pope has said this did not prevent the church from expressing regret for the wrongs of its members in some periods of history.

He initiated the procedure that led to the rehabilitation of Galileo, completed in 1992.

19:01 10-29-98
While "still waiting" for that cogent, detailed, objective, and distinctly Christian response to this from our RC bretheren... I would like to highlight the following sequence that clearly indicates that the "victims" of the Inquisition were primarly Protestants as the inquisition was ratcheted up during the reformation to deal with Protestants.

One of the Inquisition's best known victims was the astronomer Galileo, condemned for claiming the earth revolved around the sun.

The Inquisition reached its height in the 16th century to counter the Reformation.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Etchegaray said the conference could also draw on examples that scholars had been able to examine since January, when the Vatican opened secret files.

The archives also opened the infamous Index of Forbidden Books which Roman Catholics were not allowed to read or possess on pain of excommunication. Even the bible was on the blacklist.
Surely someone is going to ask why there are "Secret files" on the inquistion if it really was the "noble ministry" that some RC members have been pretending it was on this thread.

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
What? Even CAtholics don't question the "secret files" on torture and extermination?

Hmmm.

What does that tell you?

Still waiting for that "cogent, obective, distinctively Christian response to the details".

In Christ,

Bob
 
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