re: 3x church thread

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I do not disagree that we should work.. .but not out of fear of not making it to Heaven, but out of love for what Christ has already done...

Works are great... but not tied to salvation...
Otherwise, Christ's death was in vain.

When one gets saved, God places in that one a zeal for the things of God.

I see no contradiction. If one has no zeal for the things of God, one better make sure one truly was saved in the first place.

God wants a faithful people, tim. He is not looking for a Church who serves Him only when they have a mind to.

I am reminded of the last verse of Isaac Watts hymn 'When I Survey The Wondrous Cross'.

Were the whole realm of nature mine,
That were a present far too small;
Love so amazing, so divine,
Demands my soul, my life, my all.

How true these words are. The price Christ paid for my sin debt demands all of me to His service.

If you believe it is ok to miss services, you must not believe that that great sacrifice demands all.

 

[StefanM]

What if the church leadership determines that the church should have services every Monday morning at 10 AM and on Thursdays at 3 PM?

Should everyone within the church have to quit their jobs?

Or would this be solved by finding another church without such meeting times?

 

[Linda64]

What if the church leadership determines that the church should have services every Monday morning at 10 AM and on Thursdays at 3 PM?

Should everyone within the church have to quit their jobs?

Or would this be solved by finding another church without such meeting times?

Where God guides, God provides!

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

What if the church leadership determines that the church should have services every Monday morning at 10 AM and on Thursdays at 3 PM?

Should everyone within the church have to quit their jobs?

Or would this be solved by finding another church without such meeting times?

Is their faith in their work? or the Lord? If God closes a door on a job, can he not open a door to another?

In the first century AD, the New Testament saints met daily in the temple... and still kept their jobs. God would open doors for work if you stepped out in faith and obedience to His Word.

 

[StefanM]

Is their faith in their work? or the Lord? If God closes a door on a job, can he not open a door to another?

So if three or four men decide to make this decision, and possibly HUNDREDS of people have to quit their jobs, you have no problem with it?

If the church leadership did that, I'd expect them not to complain about their paycut!

This is absolutely unreasonable!

 

[StefanM]

Where God guides, God provides!

You are assuming the church leadership is always acting in response to the prompting of God.

 

[Linda64]

You are assuming the church leadership is always acting in response to the prompting of God.

You are making ridiculous, hypothetical statements--

 

[StefanM]

You are making ridiculous, hypothetical statements--

...which are simply intended to test the bounds of the arguments presented.

It is my belief that a pastor who truly cared about his flock would not force such a decision on the church, but not all pastors care about their flock.

If church leadership acts without compassion and institutes a dictatorship, does the church have no recourse?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

So if three or four men decide to make this decision, and possibly HUNDREDS of people have to quit their jobs, you have no problem with it?

If the church leadership did that, I'd expect them not to complain about their paycut!

This is absolutely unreasonable!

Scripture does say we are to submit to them.

 

[Rufus_1611]

See, he makes it clear that church attendance and running the race is not tied into salvation....

Do you see the differences in your posts....

His is works after salvation...
your is works for salvation...

Allow me to clarify a bit. I believe that eternal salvation is by faith alone and all that have faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, which washes away the sins of those who believe, will spend an eternity in New Jerusalem. However, I also am one of those folks that believes in Kingdom Accountability and the judgment seat of Christ and that all will be judged according to the things done in their body, good or bad.

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad" - 2 Corinthians 5:10​

A Christian who does not desire to work for the Lord and obey His commandments does not make him not a son, for I do not believe that God disowns his children. However, is it not possible for saved Christians to sin? I've met Christian drunkards on the street, I know Christians who fornicate and take pleasure in watching fornication (ie television, Hollywood movies, internet porn), I know of Christian idolaters and I've met effeminate Christians. Do we then say an effeminate Christian will inherit the Kingdom of God...God forbid. Do we say then that a Christian who is a drunkard is no longer a Christian, I don't think so. What then, what do we do with scripture such as...

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind," - 1 Corinthians 6:9​

"Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." - Galatians 5:21​

...does this mean these saved Christians who do such things are not going to be with the Son of Man for all eternity? I don't think so. I believe it means they have chastisement coming for I know the Lord our God loves His children.

"He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes." - Proverbs 13:24​

There are saved Christians who overcome sin and there are those that are overcome by sin. One will receive one reward and the other will receive a different reward.

"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:" - Revelation 2:26​

The thousand year reign of Christ, is a literal earthly kingdom in which some will attain this prize with a greater portion, some will receive a lesser portion and some will miss the prize and receive their portion with the unbelievers.

"If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:" - 2 Timothy 2:12​

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:19​

"The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." - Luke 12:46​

I say all the above to say, I do not believe that church attendance is an eternal salvation issue. However, a Christian who will not submit to those that have rule over them (and I mean this in a very Berean way and the "those" are those that watch over your soul) and have minimal desire to assemble with Saints, may have a heart condition that may cause them grief and loss at the Judgment Seat of Christ. If HBSMN is advocating for an Arminiast or even Calvinistic view of eternal salvation, then I would stand opposed to that. However, the premise that Christ is not returning for a dead in works, lukewarm church is quite valid. It is only those that are counted worthy that will escape the things to come, it is only those counted worthy that will enter into the millenial reign with Christ and it is the lukewarm Laodicean church and Laodicean believers that will be spewed out of the mouth of Christ and given their portion with the unbelievers and yet they remain one of Christ's churches and will be saved in eternity.

 

[Rufus_1611]

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/earlybaptists-faithful.html

Good thing you folks weren't living back then!

That's a nice find Ms. Linda. Thanks for the history.

 

[StefanM]

Scripture does say we are to submit to them.

Is their no limit to their authority?

Can I make my church members vacuum my carpet and mow my lawn?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

A God ordained pastor will not lead the flock astray.

 

[Rufus_1611]

Is their no limit to their authority?

Can I make my church members vacuum my carpet and mow my lawn?

This is in no way equivalent to a pastor saying, "come to church".

 

[StefanM]

This is in no way equivalent to a pastor saying, "come to church".

I would consider it equivalent to "quit your job so that you can come to church at unreasonable times because I say so."

 

[Linda64]

Is their no limit to their authority?

Can I make my church members vacuum my carpet and mow my lawn?

This is the duty of the pastor:

The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. (1 Peter 5:1-4)

I don't see vacuum carpets and mow the lawn in this passage.

 

[StefanM]

I agree. However, I would consider it to be "lording over" the flock if the pastor makes excessive demands on church attendance.

Should members attend services? Of course. Do I wish every member would show up for every service? Definitely! It would make me feel better.

However, I do not believe that it is within my authority to demand attendance at every single service without exception. I do not want to "go beyond what is written," so, though I firmly believe in regular, consistent church attendance, I will not condemn a person who misses a Wednesday night for a job or a person who misses a Sunday evening service because of travel or a person who doesn't attend every time the doors are open.

IMO, a person who attends services regularly (even if not every service available) is not "forsaking the assembly." To say otherwise is simply a matter of interpretation. Without clear biblical warrant, I will not insist upon rigidity.

 

[JDale]

Eternal salvation is by grace through faith alone because of the blood of a pure spotless lamb. However, once we are off of milk, there's a prize we should be striving for.

Surely, Paul is not describing eternal salvation in the following verse (unless Paul was an Arminian, which I would expect we'd agree he was not).

"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain." - 1 Corinthians 9:24​

Thus, if it is not eternal salvation that we are running for, what is the prize that we are to obtain?

Au Contrair! (or whatever) Paul WAS an Arminian -- before Arminius...But I digress. LOL

That's not what I was saying. What I was saying is, if one is saved, one has put on the robe of righteousness given by Christ. His sins are forgiven -- past, present and future. Thus, even if that person is at the time of the Rapture in some sort of indescretion, he/she is covered so long as their faith is in Christ.

To say that one is "a Christian" but must somehow earn the right to be raptured when Jesus comes for His Church is to misunderstand the entire concept of salvation by grace through faith.

JDale

 

[JDale]

We work because we are saved...
not to keep saved...

Excellent point -- I agree.

JDale

 

[rbell]

The question:

What if the church leadership determines that the church should have services every Monday morning at 10 AM and on Thursdays at 3 PM?

Should everyone within the church have to quit their jobs?
Or would this be solved by finding another church without such meeting times?

The answers:

Where God guides, God provides!

Is their faith in their work? or the Lord? If God closes a door on a job, can he not open a door to another?
In the first century AD, the New Testament saints met daily in the temple... and still kept their jobs. God would open doors for work if you stepped out in faith and obedience to His Word.

The analysis:

I bet Jim Jones used that one.
David Koresh, too.